Not too bad. If it is gets a decent % from +healing, it could be quite nice.
I just saw this myself. On face value 10 charges at 270 healed makes for a decent slow ticking HoT for us *right now*, but with increased stats and therefore increased damage taken from mobs at and approaching level 70 I can only see this being really viable if it is affected by +healing in the same way as renew and other HoT's (entire benefit of the course of the spell). If I understand the mechanic on HoT's correctly +600 healing would yield +60 more/tick putting it at 330. Or 3.66 hp/mana.
Another concern with this is limited buff slots. I know it's being increased for BC but it seems that there are going to be ALOT more buffs going around and I'm concerned about this getting bumped off. If it is anything like Lightning Shield then the charges will get used every 3 seconds or so, which means this buff needs to be up a long time to get the full benefit.
Still, even though I, personally, am more interested in the enhancement tree I am happy that the restoration tree seems to have gotten some serious love!
Yea so at lvl 60 with raid buffs, Purification, Nature's Blessing, and full Earthshatter and the usual suspects of naxx gear (yields a little over 1k +healing) you'd be looking at Earth Shield ticks of roughly 411.
I was underwhelmed by the 41 Ele and Ehn talents. Seems to me that if they'd made Wrath of Air the 41 Ele talent and Bloodlust the 41 Ehn talent, there would have been much rejoicing. Instead we have a 41 Ele talent that averages out to 1.6% crit over 2 minutes, and a 41 Ehn talent whose viability is going to be solely based on intemization. Eh.
That is why i said that that such a comparison is not perfect since a Shaman can heal if necessary. The key question then boils down to what delta a raid can live with for a group that looks like: Shaman, 4*DPS (A) vs 5*DPS (B ). And as you said the acceptable delta will be a function of the marginal benefit of a resto shaman vs a differently speced shaman in terms of healing, the lower DPS of such a Shaman vs pure DPS classes, and the buffing of pure DPS classes in the party. I agree that I was overly negative stating that unless the off-spec Shammy actually boosts DPS when DPSing (party as whole) he/she has no role. I am still uncertain what the numbers turn out to be though.
There's also the point that you can't really measure the total Shaman contribution even with the most brilliant of equations weighing all the differences in DPS, healing, indirect DPS and what-have-you, since you will never be able to truely measure flexibility. One of the bigger strengths from having a shaman over a specialist is that he/she can not only change roles during an encounter but can change to an even larger degree between encounters.
Unless of course you think the optimal distribution of healers vs dps vs tanks will be the same on all encounters or if you plan to have additional manpower sitting out every night and swapping people in/out all over the place.
im wondering if mental quickness is a worthwhile talent
we will have to see in TBC when new gear comes out.
because basically if the rate of which u expend mana is near to or equal to what u can get back using shamanistic rage(2min CD, 30s duration) + use of consumables(maybe ndb or combat mana pot? or even the small mana pots that refund 500 mana or 700-900 mana) it might not be as good a talent as it looks on paper.
personally if i went enhance shammy on BC the spec i have in mind at the moment is 0/44/17. thats just my rough build so far, when i do get home i think i'll do more analysis.
as for resto,
i kind of like earthen shield. it gives shaman more utility from a healing perspective than before. it does cost alot of mana (900 mana from the talent calculator for max rank 270 hp, 10 ticks) but what we gain again is utility. pre pull on the tanks its great for say if we want some extra leverage / time to move raid into position. during fight if the situation calls for it it can be like an emergency buffer of sorts ala PW:S. or like gurgthock mentioned it will be nice on aoers who have to aoe little packs of stupid things who hit too often and a little too hard on cloth.
currently im not raiding actively anymore, but if i were to be a shaman in TBC i think i would like to play an enhancement shaman with my build emphasis for raiding. i cant believe that last part of my sentence actually makes sense now! haha
im wondering if mental quickness is a worthwhile talent
we will have to see in TBC when new gear comes out.
because basically if the rate of which u expend mana is near to or equal to what u can get back using shamanistic rage(2min CD, 30s duration) + use of consumables(maybe ndb or combat mana pot? or even the small mana pots that refund 500 mana or 700-900 mana) it might not be as good a talent as it looks on paper.
It certainly doesn't look like worthwhile and not because of shamanistic rage but because of JoW proc rate when 2 weapons and +10/13% hit modifier (from talents only) are being used. And passive BoW mana regeneration.
Currently JoW means 50% chance on hit to regain 59 mana. Any hit (it works on spells and wands as well), which means it can proc off stormstrike/shock as well. And that's assuming there won't be new rank of this seal (which is probably right assumption - maybe it will even get nerfed?). Shaman can effectively swing one of his weapons approx. every second and with high +hit, those attacks will land very often.
Unless we are talking about situation when paladin can't JoW the target (immune to magic, pally too busy with something else), shaman mana regeneration even without 41 point talent will be more then fine.
New rank of seal of wisdom, the judgement gives 74 per proc (instead of 59). It could get some form of max procs per min thing (to limit dual wield regen) but there is most definately a new rank.
What are the various break-points for a Shaman in Restoration, and how would they get to them? Nature's Swiftness is very important (so much so that I can't see any shaman that groups ever having less than 21 in Restoration). Is everything after that just more of the same, or are there any more hugely important healing talents in there? Also, what's the standard way to get the first 20 points in Restoration?
It's not even that Nature's Swiftness is all that important (it's better in the hands of a Druid, the big Shaman heal tops out a lot lower), it's that the 5 points that give you 70% to avoid interruption on healing spells are so incredibly vital to being a good healer that it's pretty stupid to pass them up if you are raiding. This means any healing build has at least 15 in Resto, and you may as well take 16 since the 10 yard totem range is pretty solid. Not many builds have good synergy with 16 points in Resto, and it's just 5 more points to Nature's Swiftness which is still a good spell for any build.
There's no "standard" way to spend points as some of it depends on your play style, but I always go 5/5 Improved Healing Wave for Rank 4 spam which is incredibly efficient with Healing Way, 3/3 Ancestral Fortitude, 2/5 Totemic Focus (I drop a lot of totems, this is an approximate wash with Tidal Focus), 5/5 Healing Focus, 1/1 Totemic Mastery, 4/5 Tidal Mastery and NS if I only go 21 deep. From NS it's pretty easy to get 30 or 31 in Resto, Healing Way and Purification are total no-brainers. If you opt for Mana Stream/Tide then bypass Tidal Mastery and probably Ancestral Fortitude, about 1/3 of my crit on heals comes from TM and it would probably be better to either max out Tidal or Totemic Focus instead. I'm currently 21/0/30 and it's a really good all-around spec at the BWL stage of the game.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
Elemental Devastation (9% crit 10s with melee after spell crit) v. Nature's Guidance (+3% hit)
Spam rank 1 FrS with elem Focus procs (chain light after SS) etc v. cheaper totems/healing focus
For the enhancement shaman build in raid setting, which do you get? I probably would go NS anyway so its kind of moot.
Elemental Devastion is a weak talent, since in ENH gear you have little spell crit (and using R1 shocks breaks the 5SR). Also casting chain lighting after a SS stops your melee attacks, so to do optimal damage you want to use Earthshock instead.
A good ENH Shaman will at least have healing focus, cheaper spells, and the totem range talent, and likely the +3 hit talent too (so 19 points in Resto).
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
With the advent of Dual Wield and Judgement of Wisdom I would argue that Elemental Devastation is now a completely viable talent for a shaman dead set on doing a lot of DPS. With a minimal change in gear a Shaman in say, Stormcaller's, would be pulling in the range of 100 MP/5 from meleeing a JoW'd mob with two 2.0s, so hitting low rank shocks to boost crit chance will help keep the 10% AP buff up without appreciable mana loss.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
With the advent of Dual Wield and Judgement of Wisdom I would argue that Elemental Devastation is now a completely viable talent for a shaman dead set on doing a lot of DPS. With a minimal change in gear a Shaman in say, Stormcaller's, would be pulling in the range of 100 MP/5 from meleeing a JoW'd mob with two 2.0s, so hitting low rank shocks to boost crit chance will help keep the 10% AP buff up without appreciable mana loss.
Depending on how the weapon buffs work I think it could be much more than 100 mp5.
I think it is safe to say that a shaman will hit the target atleast 60 times a minute Then 3 storm strikes and say 7 shocks for 70 hits. 50% proc means 35 procsper minute at a delicious 74 mana per proc is over 200 mp5.
If the offhand windfury does not work it will be closer to 45-50 hits per minute which is closer to 160 mp5 before other buffs.
Throw in BoW and mana spring and mageblood and you are looking at closer to 250-300 mp5.
Holy crap eh?
It is interesting that Shaman seems poised to gain the most from the introduction of pallies.
What are the various break-points for a Shaman in Restoration, and how would they get to them? Nature's Swiftness is very important (so much so that I can't see any shaman that groups ever having less than 21 in Restoration). Is everything after that just more of the same, or are there any more hugely important healing talents in there? Also, what's the standard way to get the first 20 points in Restoration?
NS is overrated imo. It's a crutch and based on my own research seems to lead to alot of overhealing. That is not to say that it doesn't have its uses and can certainly bail you out. Under the new talents split builds with 21 restore and the rest elsewhere seem unlikely to be effective at all. It almost feels as though blizzard wants Shaman to commit to a particular tree and get some nice extra's out of the other trees with your few spare points. If you are going restoration you may as well get Earthen Shield, if you are going to focus on Enhance you are likely doing it for Dual Weild, and if you are going Elemental I'm guessing you are interested in the crit totem (my Elemental knowledge is sadly lacking, apologies). It's going to be very difficult to look at the traditional breakpoints in the trees and come up with a raid viable dual spec, in my humble opinion of course. But if you only put 21 points into restoration you are very limited in what you can get from the other trees that will actually help more than just yourself.
The 41pt Enhancement talent isn't what will get you to give up NS. It's the tier 6-8 talents. You can't get all of them without putting 42 points into Enhancement, and at that point you may as well get Shamanistic Rage also.
If you're going to go deep into Enhancement you really, really want Unleashed Rage (from a raid perspective anyway -- obviously pvp builds can easily handly 0/40/21 without this). Then, similarly, Weapon Mastery, Stormstrike, Dual Wield, and Dual Wield Spec are all tree-defining talents. That's what you spec deep enhancement for.
I do 0/43/18 is a very viable build, at this early stage anyway.
Saying NS is overrated is silly. NS is awesome. It is awesome in PVE and PVP. Being able to do something faster (at no cost) is always good there is no downside at all.
That argument makes no sense to me gurgthock. With 40 in enhancment all you don't have is Weapon Mastery/DWS, 2% off instant spells and Shamanistic Rage. I don't think those 3 together are better than NS.
I believe that the shaman changes are great. They have given us almost everything that I hear requested of us (except for some form of lock down CC).
The 41 point elemental talent is great. You might say it is only 20 seconds every 2 minutes, but the power of it is your party utilizing there cool downs during this time. 10% crit totem + Mage with ToeP (or whatever the new BC burst trinket is) + the dmg to spells totem + the occasional blood lust when it is up will provide a ton of burst damage.
The 41 point enhancemnet talent is good too. The main reason is itemization. It allows the enhancment shaman to prioritze strength over int. The only thing that it really needs is to add -threat modifier for the shaman. This would be a way for the melee shaman have similar threat generation to other melee classes without letting the caster shamans have an advantage over other caster classes.
The 41 point restoration talent is great too. We asked for a HoT, and we got a HoT. As long as it scales with gear, it will be a great talent.
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I am in a smaller guild an I have run many, many 20 mans at the gear level they were designed for. Rant: (To those who say ZG is a joke, try doing it when there are 4 to 5 waves of bats on Jeklik and the trash priest mobs get off 3 or more fears before you can dps them down.) Back to my point: We found the perfect mix to be 4 main healers (priest/druids/resto shamans) and 2 backup healers(dps specced druids and shamans) to be the perfect mix for the bosses in ZG and AQ20. Most fights only require the 4 healers, but some require the other 2 healers when the rest of the raid is taking some form of damage. Assuming that Blizzard uses the same balance from 20 man to 25 man raids, we will be looking at 5 main healers and 3 backup healers. I can see a typical raid being 2 healing priest, 2 healing druids, 1 resto shammie/healadin, and 3 damage specced shamans/druids/priest/paladins. I belive those saying that BC will require 11 healing specced chars are basing estimates on the current 40 man raids, and I belive that Blizzard is more likely to use their design philosophy for 20 man encounters than 40 man encounters for raid make up.
I haven't used NS in quite a while without it resulting in massive overhealing in a raid. The better of a healer you become the less reliant on "oshi" abilities you become, the more familiar you become with content the more aware you are of how much healing is required by an encounter instead of spamming wildly, the more defense a tank has the less likely they are to fall to a freak crit that needs a big heal. I still have NS because it's retarded to NOT have it if you are deep resto, but I think it's at the point where I could get along without it in raiding. When you are the only healer in a 5-man group it's another story entirely, and I may be more reliant on it again when the expansion rolls around.
Berg, I figured the 100 MP/5 as a rough estimate based on white damage only and an 80% connect rate. Obviously adding more attacks will improve your regen, but you're spending mana to get mana when you figure shocks, stormstrike, etc. so the calculations become hopelessly cyclical. It is kind of ironic that Shamans (and Hunters) do stand to have the biggest gains in effectiveness when JoW becomes a factor. The Alliance will never know how we had to do things uphill both ways!
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
A 40-point Enchancement shaman picking up Nature's Swiftness loses 3 points from maxing out dual-wielding and weapon mastery. They also lose out on mana-regen (41 point talent)/cheaper instant casts, but those can theoretically be made up from JoW/BoW.
If the raids and gear get to the point where an enchancement shaman is primarily DPS who can heal (poorly) on a few fights, then I can see going 43+ points in Enhancement. I just can't see an instant-cast heal (or even nuke) being less valuable than 6% of a shaman's personal DPS though.
A non 41 point enhancement shaman is just not viable. He would have to prioritize INT over STR which would severly gimp his DPS. Also if you are wanting your shaman to be ready to NS Heal someone, he will have to really lay off the stormstrikes to have mana which would really hurt his abitlity to keep the attack power buff on his party. If the enhancment shaman is not keeping his buff on his party, what the hell is his point?
A 41 enhancemnet shaman that prioritizies STR will will do more DPS, have more mana, and will keep the buff on his party better than a shaman that has NS. So the enhancment shaman has to ask "Do I want to be GOOD at what my spec is meant to do or do I want to do crap DPS, semi keep my party buffed, and b able to "Oshi" heal someone?" I don't think shamans should embrace the okay at everthing but masters of none philosophy.
Edit: Meant to say "non 41 point enhancement shaman is just not viable". I was arguing go 41 enhancement instead of half ass doing it.
A 41 point enhancement shaman is just not vialbe. He would have to prioritize INT over STR which would severly gimp his DPS. Also if you are wanting your shaman to be ready to NS Heal someone, he will have to really lay off the stormstrikes to have mana which would really hurt his abitlity to keep the attack power buff on his party. If the enhancment shaman is not keeping his buff on his party, what the hell is his point?
A 41 enhancemnet shaman that prioritizies STR will will do more DPS, have more mana, and will keep the buff on his party better than a shaman that has NS. So the enhancment shaman has to ask "Do I want to be GOOD at what my spec is meant to do or do I want to do crap DPS, semi keep my party buffed, and b able to "Oshi" heal someone?" I don't think shamans should embrace the okay at everthing but masters of none philosophy.
Enhancement shaman will not be hurting for mana. Their mana pools will be lame but the regeneration is going to be absurdly good from JoW/BoW/ManaSpring.
A 41 point enhancement shaman is just not viable. He would have to prioritize INT over STR which would severly gimp his DPS. Also if you are wanting your shaman to be ready to NS Heal someone, he will have to really lay off the stormstrikes to have mana which would really hurt his abitlity to keep the attack power buff on his party.
I don't think shamans should embrace the okay at everthing but masters of none philosophy.
With proper gear and a Pally, a full ENH is a viable spec (esp. as you gain more STR gear).
Why would an ENH shaman want to stack INT? You want STR for the 41 pt talent and its 2 AP. AGI/Crit for the AP buff and Flurry. A good Shaman will know to save mana for LSW spam (since he doesn't have NS) and will use Chain Heal to top off his melee party.
Mana isn't as much of an issue as you think with BoW and JoW up. It really makes a big difference that you are getting 59 mana (more as Pallys level up) back 50% when you melee (especially with Dual Wield and +hit talents, that mana regen is crazy), and another 40 MP5 on top of that is cake.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
08/31/06, 2:27 PM
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