gurgthock i saw your build, mine differs from yours only due to me maxing out Imp. windfury totem and having 4/5 healing focus to net a 0 44 17 build
you dont think maxing out imp. windfury totem is worthwhile? my take on it is since we are bolstering melee dps anyway i would spec to maximise that role, after all having gone so deep into the enhance tree.
as for elemental shaman, my idea would be to have a talent deep in the tree, maybe the 41 point talent:(something akin to totemic power)
Epiphany:(im sure there could be a more fitting name but here goes ^_^)
Gives a 5% chance after casting a Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning or Shock spell to imbue a shaman's PARTY members within 45 yards with shamanistic power.
Warlocks/Mages : 5% extra spell dmg for 5-10(?) secs (what would be fair and what would be OP'd?)
Priests/Druids : gains mp5 equivalent of 10% of spirit for 5-10 secs
Pallies/Shaman : gains mp5 equivalent of 10% of intel for 5-10 secs
Warriors / Rogues : 5% increased Attack Speed for 5-10(?) secs (might be a cross talent vs. enhancement so i thought maybe varied it with atk spd)
What do you guys think? i modelled this idea after the earthshatter bonus as well as unleashed rage talent for enchancement for elemental
i think it would be nice if they had any intention to make elemental shaman bring more to the raiding table other than individual dps and totems(almost all but say the current 41 point one can be dropped by other specced shaman)
this is just a rough idea i thought out, i wanted it to be scalable so i made them all % based off a particular stat or mechanism. i thought druids and priests gear-wise usually have more spirit, so i went with that and intel for shaman / paladins respectively.
Let me elaborate a bit. If Blizzard wants to make elemental DPS viable in raids, they need to encourage the playstyle, not the spec. That is why Enhancement is brilliant. If the 41pt Elemental talent were a totem that gave +50% spell crit with no drawbacks, would it make sense to spec 41 Elemental? Of course, every raid would need one. Would it make sense for that 41 Elemental guy to spend the whole fight tossing lightning bolts? No, actually.
And that's the key. It's the old 31pt BoK problem. Paladins had to spec 31 Ret to get BoK, but they were still healbots in raids. But someone had to do it.
The solution has to be tied to an actual action on the player's part (like a paladin meleeing to refresh judgments, as another example) if you want to encourage a different playstyle.
How much more (or less) viable would Totem of Wrath be if it increased spell damage by 10% instead of spell crit chance? With fewer raid members and more advantages to using a variety of specs, it seems reasonable to assume that crit bonus effects (ala rolling ignites and improved shadow bolt) would be up less often. The effect would be particularly pronouced with ignite, I would guess, but that mechanic may or may not be modified anyway. Because of the decrease in raid size, Totem of Wrath may actually be somewhat more viable than it initially seems by virtue of initiating crit debuff effects.
That being said, this thread has made it relatively clear that Totem of Wrath is underpowered, and it seems likely that it does not provide enough benefit to justify a deep elemental shaman in place of a deep resto shaman. However, I would contest that the idea of an active totomic skill as the 41-pointer in elemental, especially a skill that uses either the fire or earth totem slots, seems like a good idea for finishing the elemental tree. Not only would it provide a use for those totems in caster parties, but it fits with Blizzard's general theme for making the 41-point talents active abilities.
If Totem of Wrath is undesireable because of its duration or effect, either of those could be modified without changing the general use of the spell. Increasing the duration to 30 seconds, for example, would make it even more effective for burn-down phases, and it would continue to syergize well with active short-term buffs like the ZHC. However, I don't think that a change from 20 to 30 seconds is ideal because it removes some of the "bursty" feel of the spell, which seems intentional and is thematic for a buffing fire totem.
My personal preference would be to change the nature of the effect itself. Rather than being a crit modifier, drawing comparisons to Moonkin aura and a myriad of other class talents, Totem of Wrath could increase overall spell damage or decrease spell casting time. Increasing spell damage by 10% would follow the same theme, but it would also magnify spell crits that are already occuring. By contrast, a casting speed reduction of 0.25 seconds or a haste effect of 10-15% would be particularly interesting because it would be noticable for players. Even if it was only a moderate improvement in dps over the current design, a haste effect would stand out and make players take notice.
If the various shaman calculations are accurate (DPS over 5 minutes and DPS in a mana free situation) then I don't see any way to bring an elemental shaman into a DPS role. If a shaman gains the mana recovery to DPS constantly, then they aren't just 80% of a mage's DPS. They're competing with a mage specced just for PvE DPS and outDPSing Frost-based mages. It's the same for moonkin and shadow priests. They're projected DPS was never really the problem, it was just mana that was holding them back.
I don't quite see the way around it, either. In a raid setting, the 41+ Elemental shaman will still be healing as their primary duty, no matter what totems or talents they get. Because if they can DPS somehow for a boss fight, then they become a top-level DPS class.
Praetorian, while I agree the 41 pt talent is craptastic, I am gonna reserve judgement on an Elemental DPS raiding shaman until a fully fleshed out level 70.
(Math here)
If you take away the 2 mana pots, it's about 407DPS. I should point out that 93(4 are Overload remember) casts takes 186 seconds, which leaves 114 seconds for spirit regen. If only half of that time is spent on spirit regen, that adds about 30DPS (at 60mp2) you can squeeze in there. Also no armor based mp5 or crit% is accounted for in any of these equations.
This sort of sustained DPS was IMPOSSIBLE before, largely due to paladin mana recovery. With them, I'm willing to give it a shot.
Actually, the sustained DPS for a 5 minute fight is a lot higher than that. You're using the highest rank of lightning bolt, which makes you go out of mana really fast. The great thing about lightning bolt is that lightning mastery makes it scale faster than almost every other direct damage spell in the game, so even if you use a lower rank (i.e. rank 4, the first rank over level 20) you still deal a very respectable amount of damage due to +damage. (and you can still use your highest rank or CL on clearcasts)
Do the math for rank 7 or so, you'll be surprised.
So the talent should be something like
"When you critically strike your target with a damage spell, all spell damage gains an additional 10% ciritical strike chance for 20 seconds"
So rank 10 instead of max rank is a BAD idea. It produces less DPS.
Don't forget, you have a maximum possible 150 casts at 2 sec per cast over 5 minutes. add 7 more for overload So at 157 casts, 155 are using the crit rate, 2 are EM. 155*.235 = 36 crits, which leaves 119 regular hits,
To get as much damage as rank 12, we have the formula of
119*X+38*2X=147,659dmg.
195X=147,659
X=757 avg non-crit dmg per cast, at 157 casts.
757-515=238 base avg dmg
which is rank 7.
Rank 7 costs 148 mana. 24 of the casts are mana free with clearcasting, EM, and overload, so 133*148=19684mana, which seems just barely doable with mana recovery and 8k base.
This means that rank 7 is roughly THE SAME DPS as rank 12, over a 5 minute period. It also means that any period less than 5 minutes, rank 7 drops sharply in DPS by comparison.
First, why would you use anything but rank 12 (or chain lightning) on clearcasts and EM?
Second, this also means that rank 7 is more dps as you add more spell damage if the rest of the stats remain constant because you get more casts off and both ranks (7 and 12) get the same damage bonus. (which isnt too far fetched since shamans are already hitting +600 damage on LB nowadays and even more with stormcallers wrath)
Max rank on the free casts yields about 5k more damage, or 16 dps.
Don't forget, this is constantly casting the spell every 2 secs over a 5 min period, no lag or movement or holding back for aggro. perhaps at 600 or more in DMG gear this might be feasible.
As it stands, rank 12 yields that damage in 186 seconds, which is 3 minutes. Obviously, the return on mana isnt as good in that time, but recovering enough to cast more doesn't take long. If you KNOW the fight takes 5 min of constant pumping out of damage without holding back, then yes, rank 7 would be better, and because Mana tide is up again after that, I'd really say around 6 minutes
Sorry to resurrect this, but what spec are people looking at? I've been looking at the following:
0/42/19: 3% hit, totem mana cost and range bonus, essential Healing Focus.
0/48/13: 3% hit, trading Healing Focus for full DW Spec and Weapon Mastery.
19/42/0: Clearcasting(very important for mana-intensive Shocks), Shock cooldown bonus, Elemental Devastation.
Just wondering where I'm missing 2 Enh points everyone else has. Guardian Totems? e.
And what is a bigger DPS bonus, DW Spec or Weapon Mastery? Looks like the Shaman version is a flat +10% hit to all attacks, which would support Unleashed Rage more than WM.
Guardian Totems? That is a sad excuse for a talent, never get it. Mental Quickness? The only instants a Shaman will be using in battle are shocks and totems, and 6% off them is weak vs having damage talents, so I skipped mental quickness (it would work well with Clearcasting though). I also skipped 2H axe/mace talent, since you are DWing, I don't see a need for it. 5% more LS damage is nice when soloing/PvPing.
Towards 10% to hit or 10% more weapon damage, they are both strong talents, but DW spec is better for overall dps.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Towards 10% to hit or 10% more weapon damage, they are both strong talents, but DW spec is better for overall dps
This is generally true, though at higher quality levels of gear vs. +3's, cases where (hit + crit + 1.2*weaponskill - mob avoidance) > 36.6, weapon mastery catches up and surpasses the dw spec for shamans.
It's worth noting that to reach those levels without hitting the crit cap you're already going to require fairly decent + hit though, and the dw spec is probably the easiest/best place to get that. Also, there's the benefit from shamanistic rage depending on your hit rate while being independant of your damage.
It's worth noting that to reach those levels without hitting the crit cap you're already going to require fairly decent + hit though, and the dw spec is probably the easiest/best place to get that. Also, there's the benefit from shamanistic rage depending on your hit rate while being independant of your damage.
Yeah, and don't forget +hit effect on Judgement of Wisdom mana regeneration rate. Overall, having full +13 hit from talents is much better then trying to patch it up with gear, especially considering that +hit % chance is replaced in TBC with hit rating. It makes static % bonus to hit much more powerful and harder to replace with gear.
Guardian Totems? That is a sad excuse for a talent, never get it. Mental Quickness? The only instants a Shaman will be using in battle are shocks, and 6% off them is pretty weak, I skipped mental quickness (it would work well with Clearcasting though). I also skipped 2H axe/mace talent, since you are DWing, I don't see a need for it.
Towards 10% to hit or 10% more weapon damage, they are both strong talents, but DW spec is better for overall dps
I was thinking mental quickness also applied to totems since they are instants as well. So the talent benefits both and hopefully stacks with totemic focus.
True, MQ should apply to totems, which certainly will be cast in battle.
Even if the totem talents stack, it would still be just another 6% off totem costs vs. more having more weapon damage, I don't think the tradeoff is worth taking for a melee Shaman.
It depends on how much mana regen can come out of the 41 pointer.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I'll be at the very least duoing my way to 70 and I have 24/7 mage water so I'll probably take something like this. http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...51005310300000
You could take a few more points in Resto, but honestly there isn't a whole lot of point and the quick lightning bolts are really nice. With the changes to downranking heals and subsequent emphasis on improved mana regen I'm forseeing, I'm really having a hard time convincing myself to go any deeper than Purification. I can't shake the sinking feeling that Healing Way's usefulness is going to go right out the window unless we see some really big leaps in player HP.
Either that I'm just going to say screw it and go 0/40/21 and bash skulls.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
Healing Way will only get better if we're encouraged to use higher spell ranks and player HP expands, both of which are (a) strongly rumoured and (b) makes sense.
A build along the lines of http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...51005310000000
seems good for the elemental/resto. You miss out on mana tide and earth shield and all the "more +heal" talents besides Healing Way, but at least elemental gives you some more mana regen (which, on a personal level rather than a party level, easily outstrips that laughable new rank of Mana Tide) to compensate, plus you have the power to add some serious burst damage when it's called for which a pure resto shaman won't have. I have a feeling that's the real point of having an elem shaman along, not to try and compete with mages for sustained high DPS while providing totems, but to heal and provide burst damage in timed situations or an add spawns or whatever (and to have a high spell crit rate to proc Ancestral).
There's a bit of room to tinker depending on how stuff works out... if you need to get past 35 yards a lot for damage, then take a point from Tidal Mastery or Elemental Precision for a 2nd point in Storm's Reach (or evena point from Healing Focus if you're going to be in a group with a pally often). If that point in Storm's Reach isn't going to matter at all, stick a point in purification or lightning overload. Etc.
As a Swinger of the big stick myself, I am more than pleased with the Enhancement changes. Given JoW and BoW, and Shamanistic Rage I forsee no problems maintaining an excellent dps level and enabling a fair chunk for my group. Vis a spec like so:
Having never played a Shaman, I'm struggling with a final spec for level 70. The character I'm creating will be leveling from 1-70 when BC comes out, and it will be my main. I have absolutely no interest in the enchancement tree once I'm finished leveling, but I'll probably grind w/it.
I'm looking to play a support Shaman in both PVE and PVP. After lots and lots of tinkering with the BC talent calculator, I came up with a 10/10/41 spec. I have a few questions about different talents into the resto tree that I didn't pick up. The link to my spec:
- Is Totemic Focus (-25% totem mana cost) worth it? I could drop Shield Specialization or Ancestral Knowledge for it.
- Mana Tide seems like a waste, until I have 4 piece Earthshatterer. I mean, it's good, but every 5 min for 6 talent points.
Vazu: the most obvious changes I would make to that spec would be to remove shield spec and the earth totem talents and pick up Mana Tide. Remember that you also get Improved Mana Spring in so doing, plus you're going to find shield block and the earth totem talents to be all but worthless.
09/02/06, 12:51 AM
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