Warrior BC Talent specs - Page 11

• Nite_Moogle · 09/18/06, 7:39 PM

Sorry, I read that as no rage cost, 30 second cooldown. Yeah, 30 rage to keep that up will be a great rage dump: not quite as good as Bloodthirst but a better way to improve your DPS without resorting to Heroic Strike or Cleave.

Deathwing · 09/18/06, 8:58 PM

Does that mean you have to spend 30 rage for each application of 40 AP, or you use it once after a crit, and then each crit after that stacks it up to 200?

Krag · 09/18/06, 9:31 PM

Originally Posted by Rane

They also merged Axes and Polearm weaponspecs in Arms

About time Polearms got moved to the same tier as the other weapon specs, because Polearms are cool.

Rampage sounds quite good now and might be worth getting. I'm not really sure how I'd choose for my warrior, but I'm not in that big of a rush either though since he's just an alt.

Rane · 09/18/06, 9:33 PM

No, it's 30 rage to (re-)activate Rampage, then you have to hit 5 times to get your 200 AP. You can reactivate it whenever you have 30 rage and just crit an attack, and it will reset the counter and keep the stacks.

Basically with those requirements, it should always be up for a Fury warrior.

Deathwing · 09/18/06, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Rane

No, it's 30 rage to (re-)activate Rampage, then you have to hit 5 times to get your 200 AP. You can reactivate it whenever you have 30 rage and just crit an attack, and it will reset the counter and keep the stacks.

Basically with those requirements, it should always be up for a Fury warrior.

Ah, so it's like a rolling ignite, 30 rage to get it started and then every crit adds to the AP up to 5 times, and then every crit after that just renews the duration?

◊ Kasi · 09/18/06, 10:23 PM

That makes rampage a pretty sweet dps talent now. :) Always up instead of up only a bit. 200 constant AP isn't anything to sneeze at.

Koz · 09/18/06, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by Deathwing

Ah, so it's like a rolling ignite, 30 rage to get it started and then every crit adds to the AP up to 5 times, and then every crit after that just renews the duration?

Not exactly, you still have to spend the 30rage to reactivate it. So for 30rage every 30s~ you get 200ap. It would be worthwhile for the rage cost (battleshout is 2mins, 232ap for 10 rage) but it doesnt blow me away as a 41pt talent (imp bezerk stance is why youd go that far into the tree imo)
Still loads better than what it was before.

Edit: its any melee attack not just crit btw, you just have to crit to get it started/redo it (like dodge and overpower)

Rane · 09/18/06, 10:28 PM

Looks like I'd better post the skill description as I saw it linked.

Rampage
Rank 1
30 Rage
Instant
Warrior goes on a Rampage, increasing attack power by 24 and causing most successful melee attacks to increase attack power by an additional 24. This effect will stack up to 5 times. Last 30 seconds. This ability can only be used after scoring a critical hit.

3 ranks total, final rank is 40 AP.

Khalim · 09/18/06, 10:40 PM

Does "most successful melee attacks" mean only a % chance?

Also where does it say that subsequent use of rampage when 5 are active refreshes the stack? Devestate mentions this specifically for sunder so from reading this I would assume you would use rampage get up to 200AP after 5 (or more) hits, wait 30 seconds and after a critical hit activate it and then have to get another 5 hits got get back upto 200AP.

This doesnt really seem to make Rampage that much better, a weapon spec or 1H spec would still add more damage. Wish they would consider some of the other ideas that have been posted about Rampage, I really liked the increase Party/raid AP one, Fury really needs some party benefit to justify taking a 41 Fury war over a 0/31/30 or blood frenzy war for that second or third spot.

Deathwing · 09/18/06, 10:48 PM

Yeah, that really isn't much of an improvement, comparatively.

Rane, heard anything about Slam resetting the melee swing timer, has it been fixed? And what's this about our damage abilities getting reduced?

Shik · 09/19/06, 1:12 AM

Huh? How is an entirely controllable constant Crusader proc not nice? I think people seem to overestimate what 41pt talents are supposed to do. They are trying extremely hard to make them good, but not so good that you have to have them.

Grayson Carlyle · 09/19/06, 1:46 AM

Instead of ignite, to me, it sounds like Slice and Dice rotations.

200 AP for 30 rage every 30s. It's like getting a 14.3 dps boost to your weapon(s) at the cost of 1 rage per second. For 1 point, that certainly sounds like a lot more than a 1% increase to me (which is the low end approximate value of most direct DPS talents).

Any idea if imp zerker stance affects total AP or pre-external buff AP?

Plea · 09/19/06, 2:42 AM

Flurry refreshes itself too. I dont see a reason to type down refreshing the stacks. Devastate resetting sunder armor cooldown is another thing.

About last tiers being too powerful; warrior class was flawed in that manner. We didnt have any kind of viable 21/30 x/x/x specs so far. You either go ms, or bloodthirst. Current(pre bc) last tiers are just too powerful that the class sucks without them. Maybe we are just too much used to that, since we're not satisfied by any last tier talent.

Khalim · 09/19/06, 3:38 AM

Flurry refreshes itself too

Flurry doesnt refresh, it just replaces the old flurry proc. There is no stack with flurry, you just get a 30% IAS, how is it comparable?

Any idea if imp zerker stance affects total AP or pre-external buff AP

As with any % buff in the game atm assuming its total AP, i.e. like bok 10% adds in all other buffs.

As for the whole lackluster 41 point talent thing there have been some really good suggestions in the this forum and the wow forum. Seems like they have made their decision with Rampage and Endless rage and are sticking with it. Time will tell how many people actually use these talents, definatly with warriors the diminishing returns theme is very big for specialising in arms or fury

xarg · 09/19/06, 4:20 AM

I'd much prefer a set of lackluster 41 pt talents to a set of 31 pt talents that a player REQUIRES one of in order to not be crap.

Plea · 09/19/06, 4:29 AM

Refresh or replace, does it matter? Any stackable buff/debuff in the game refreshes cooldown when the new application comes. Flame buffet / mark of mograine doesnt have the exact explanation on their tooltips. They are just not limited; limit flurry to 1 stack, ignite to 5 stacks, and rampage to 5 stacks; here you go; if you want a theoretical explanation.

suicuique · 09/19/06, 6:57 AM

Originally Posted by Shik

Huh? How is an entirely controllable constant Crusader proc not nice?

I have not done any calculations yet, but you have to consider that to upkeep these 200AP Bonus you'd have to spend 60 Rage a minute. Sure Rage for fury is usually not a problem, but neither is AP and that 60rage/min is a non insignificant cost.

It should be worth it ... not doubt. But its still a lackluster 41 pt talent. IMHO.

Weapon expertise in the arms tree seems SO much better.

EDIT:
just a few quick thoughts:

200 AP is a 14 DPS Autoattack boost. Permanently flurried and with DW spec that means a plus of ca 700 (autoattack) DMG/minute done just by the OH. Which translates to (30 Dmg = 1 rage at lvl 60) 23 rage.

Suppose that every 2nd autoattack by the MH ist still a nonspecial (i.e. not a Cleave or HS) and you get an addtional 550 (autoattack) DMG/minute done by the MH. Which translates to 18 plus rage.

So you recoup about 40 rage/minute just by higher autoattacks (neglecting crits at the moment).

Raidbuffed you should have about 2000AP. 200 additional AP adds 10% to these. Executed perfectly you do 10 Bloodthirsts/Minute, so the additional AP translates to "1 Bonus BT" a minute.

Add to that the higher damage other Specials do (WW, OP, HS, Cleave, ...) and it certainly IS a worthy talent. But you miss out on weapon expertise, 1H spec ...

And keep in mind that the 200 AP Bonus will dimish in return as your gear advances (read: its total AP contribution becomes less and less)

regards

• Apate · 09/19/06, 12:22 PM

Weapon Mastery looks very cool. The arms tree is an interesting place for it as a PvE DPS talent, but I think it would be too powerful elsewhere. Then again, it may be negated by gear (or, yknow..people who have better racials :P ), who knows?

Carnitine · 09/19/06, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle

Instead of ignite, to me, it sounds like Slice and Dice rotations.

200 AP for 30 rage every 30s. It's like getting a 14.3 dps boost to your weapon(s) at the cost of 1 rage per second. For 1 point, that certainly sounds like a lot more than a 1% increase to me (which is the low end approximate value of most direct DPS talents).

Any idea if imp zerker stance affects total AP or pre-external buff AP?

This is what I was thinking. I think it'll add an interesting dynamic to fury dps, and I think it's probably worth getting.

I still wonder if 2H dps will be just as good in the expansion though, (MS + deathwish + flurry) especially now with a +skill talent. For that matter, getting most of the good fury talents and then going arms as far as the weapon skill talent might be interesting. The website is down (as usual) so I don't know if that would be possible.

• frmorrison · 09/19/06, 1:21 PM

If you are looking for TBC talents, wowhead.com has them mirrored. You can just pretend that the 2 point weapon mastery is there at tier 5 (maybe put two in imp hamspring to simulate it).

However, the US site (and thus wowhead) doesn't have the updated talents (or at least not earlier today).

Alundro · 09/22/06, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle

Instead of ignite, to me, it sounds like Slice and Dice rotations.

200 AP for 30 rage every 30s. It's like getting a 14.3 dps boost to your weapon(s) at the cost of 1 rage per second. For 1 point, that certainly sounds like a lot more than a 1% increase to me (which is the low end approximate value of most direct DPS talents).

Any idea if imp zerker stance affects total AP or pre-external buff AP?

If Improved Berserker Stance works like a rogue's Deadliness, then yes it does.

Regardless, its much more than a 14.3 DPS boost.
With Dual-Weild Specialization, its a 23 DPS boost.
It also adds over 90 to your non-crit Bloodthirst damage.
Assuming you use Bloodthirst every 6 seconds, thats an additional 15 DPS boost.
Toss in crits, hits, misses, whirlwinds, and Heroic Strike crits(impale talent) into the equation and the DPS increase can be much higher.

For a rough estimate, if you can sustain 1000 DPS as a Fury Warrior, Rampage will give you more than a 5% increase in DPS.
...and how many Fury Warriors do you know that can sustain 1000 DPS without Execute? Or even with?

pf · 09/22/06, 6:39 PM

Originally Posted by suicuique

Originally Posted by Shik

Huh? How is an entirely controllable constant Crusader proc not nice?

I have not done any calculations yet, but you have to consider that to upkeep these 200AP Bonus you'd have to spend 60 Rage a minute. Sure Rage for fury is usually not a problem, but neither is AP and that 60rage/min is a non insignificant cost.

It should be worth it ... not doubt. But its still a lackluster 41 pt talent. IMHO.

Weapon expertise in the arms tree seems SO much better.

EDIT:
just a few quick thoughts:

200 AP is a 14 DPS Autoattack boost. Permanently flurried and with DW spec that means a plus of ca 700 (autoattack) DMG/minute done just by the OH. Which translates to (30 Dmg = 1 rage at lvl 60) 23 rage.

Suppose that every 2nd autoattack by the MH ist still a nonspecial (i.e. not a Cleave or HS) and you get an addtional 550 (autoattack) DMG/minute done by the MH. Which translates to 18 plus rage.

So you recoup about 40 rage/minute just by higher autoattacks (neglecting crits at the moment).

Raidbuffed you should have about 2000AP. 200 additional AP adds 10% to these. Executed perfectly you do 10 Bloodthirsts/Minute, so the additional AP translates to "1 Bonus BT" a minute.

Add to that the higher damage other Specials do (WW, OP, HS, Cleave, ...) and it certainly IS a worthy talent. But you miss out on weapon expertise, 1H spec ...

And keep in mind that the 200 AP Bonus will dimish in return as your gear advances (read: its total AP contribution becomes less and less)

regards

Gaining 200ap will most likely result in a gain of close to or more than 1 rage per second. That means the talent pays for itself. It is an insignificant cost for sustained fights. A fury warrior gets around 3dps per 14ap, so this talent gives the fury warrior about 40 more dps. Hardly lackluster for a 41 point talent considering the talent points are decent on the way to this talent.

The only problem i see with fury three now is that with lower raid #s, an arms warrior will increase the raid dps more than a fury warrior, so with a balanced raid, you will have about 3 warriors in a raid, 1 arms, 1 prot, and probably a 2nd prot since you need to gear up a 2nd warrior in case the first one has a life on a raid night. So it seems as if the fury warrior might be left out of most raids in TBC. That, or they make plate dps easier to obtain (like set gear) and drop a rogue/mage/hunter out of the raid instead.

◊ Birdemani · 09/24/06, 6:06 AM

Originally Posted by Apate

Weapon Mastery looks very cool. The arms tree is an interesting place for it as a PvE DPS talent, but I think it would be too powerful elsewhere. Then again, it may be negated by gear (or, yknow..people who have better racials :P ), who knows?

Without trying to do the math, my first thought is that Weapon Mastery that low in Arms isn't the best idea. While 2H builds in PvE can benefit from more skills, you are certain to see more glancing blows using Dual Wield. It would be better off taking the place of Imp WW in the Fury tree. Besides, has anyone tried to build a spec with these changes with the possibility that TM is still in prot?

Another quick thought about Rampage, Enrage and Flurry - all three things related to crits. With Enrage you need to be crit and with Rampage/Flurry you need to crit a player.....however this new resilience stat has me concerned. What is the ratio of it to crit reduction? The leaked screenshots show it being used in large amounts on all PvP gear. Being able to crit something is the power source of Dual Wield and being crit is a major source of PvP burst damage. How will this impact us and these three things?

jessi · 09/24/06, 7:04 PM

I have a couple comments from a non-mathematical standpoint. First of all, the updated (and probably not final) version of Rampage is welcomed in my book. It's a pretty solid skill and it's another button to press making us warriors think of a new rotation of skills to use to maximize our DPS.

The new Weapon Mastery deep in arms is really nice just for the weapon skill, and the 50% chance to resist disarm is really nice for DPS too. However, more than ever, Arms is for PvP and fury is for PvE.. the weapon skill seems to be going to waste there. Would have +3% to hit and +whatever weapon skill in fury be overpowered. I think imp. WW fits a lot better in that space, minus the disarm portion.

Lastly, my thought on the whole TM thing. There is a HUGE difference between what the Devs. think and what the general population of warriors think. The Devs. (outwardly, anyway) are sure you can play perfectly fine without a single point in TM. This is not true, but you also don't need 5 points in TM for everything, 2 or 3 points does the trick. With the current talents you are able to get MS and max out Flurry, but you have 0 points left over for TM. Was this intentional? Do the Devs. realize we need TM and did this to make sure no one would spec MS+Flurry? AYEE CONSPIRACY! :p Since I admitted you don't need 5 points in TM, and I think that's a fair thing to say, I think the best thing to do would be to make a trainable skill that retains 10,12 or 15 rage when switching stances, and add a Tactical Mastery TALENT (2 or 3 points) in tier 1 arms that improves that back up to 5. Put it in the place of Deflection, and move Deflection to tier 1 Protection where it belongs. I think all of that is logical and fair.

All that being said, here is what I'm thinking of going for PvE damage:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=TGMcbZVVzVgxRiu0uh