I'm still not convinced arcane missles can be a good pve main nuke. Slow costs too much mana to add much utility to raiding at 861 mana per 15 seconds. The main use of the arcane tree is still going to be to support your frost or fire.
I won't be convinced about anything (especially mana concerns) until I can raid with paladins in the xp.
I really doubt that arcane will replace fire/frost but on the other hand fire/frost can't replace what arcane can give you.
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In other news.... does anyone have hard numbers on pyroblast scaling in the expansion? :(
A talented 6 second cast time spell that is marginally better than fireball. No, it's not. They have been going in the right direction with it but they still don't quite have it down. I'm curious with all of the other spell scaling changes they might have taken a glance at it.
I'm still not convinced arcane missles can be a good pve main nuke.
Blizzard is certainly trying to sell it as one aren't they? The -40% threat, +45% spell damage, Mind Mastery, and Spell Power do make Arcane missles quite appealing in terms of doing alot of damage without significant threat. It's not the best DPS/DPM (I think), but it is doing good damage with fairly low threat and decent DPM (not great but not too terrible).
I think the real trouble with arcane is that they're adding a brand new nuke but not really doing anything in the tree to spice it up. Ice Lance can piggy-back off of existing frost talents given its niche, but arcane burst doesn't seem to have much arcane tree support.
So we only get a 20% boost on wounded mobs, 3% hit from EP (and -3% mana cost!!), and 15% from E. Fireball. The only tree that didn't get hit was...*drumroll* Arcane! Are they really trying to push us back into mostly Arcane + Fire/Frost :(
Thats a huge (raid) dps nerf.
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Addons aren't a crutch, they're tools to be abused by skilled players to increase performance. Like a carpenter using a hammer, a fisherman using a lure, or Xi using curse words.
The other problem with Missiles is that it's channelled, and channelled spells suck.
Well, that's not always the case. I know if I had JoW and AM scaled properly back when I wore 8/8 NW I might have chained AM till NW focus then pyro (etc..) based on the fact that NW focus proc'd at the beginning of AM and not at the end like the other spells you could cheese it by recasting AM at the one second mark as well. Also clearcasting procs early on AM as well letting you decide what to cast next while you are still doing damage.
Being channeled isn't a reason for sucking. Blizzard ignoring extra long cast/channel times when calculating +damage co-efficients is what makes spells suck. (see: Pyroblast)
So we only get a 20% boost on wounded mobs, 3% hit from EP (and -3% mana cost!!), and 15% from E. Fireball. The only tree that didn't get hit was...*drumroll* Arcane! Are they really trying to push us back into mostly Arcane + Fire/Frost :(
Thats a huge (raid) dps nerf.
Well, I assume Blizzard is trying to balance things. They seem bound and determined for Arcane to be crazy DPS with horrible DPM, Frost to be the tolerable DPS with good DPM (and some nice utility/survivability functions), and Fire to fit somewhere in the middle. But theorycrafting indicated that Fire could hold its own with Arcane's DPS and yet Fire's DPM was vastly superior to Arcane's. As such, Fire seemed the better choice for raiding mages. However, the vast DPS disparity dropoff between Arcane/Fire and Frost made it hard to justify Frost as a viable raiding spec.
So they go in and nerf Fire's DPS. Now Arcane seems justifiable despite it's mana consumption issues. Meanwhile Fire's DPS is (hypothetically) no longer so vastly above Frost, so it lets Frost argue that its utility/survivability make up for its DPS shorftall.
Not saying I necessarily agree that the balance yet exists, but there's the argument.
As for the Elemental Precision nerf, I've no idea. Perhaps Blizz though giving Frost/Fire a better mana consumption ratio would allow them to further put Arcane as high DPS/high mana consumption while making Frost and Fire the more mana-efficient DPS trees.
Taking away the +hit seems rather egregious. With 10% to hit, Arcane specced mages now only need a handful of gear items to be able to hit raid bosses with impunity. Meanwhile Frost/Fire get shafted with less than a third of that, forcing us to go after gear with more Hit rating to remain viable.
I am hit-capped right now with my 10% from gear....now it's all out of whack. However, just be thankful you're not a Destruction Warlock. They get 0% hit from talents.
Empowered Fireball? That sucks, although it's only a 7.5 damage reduction per talent point - I'm not real upset about it.
Molten Fury? I can see why they did it - it was a little OP for raid damage...Each point there is practically 2% increased damage on anything that lives long enough (i.e. bosses/elites).
The Elemental Precision change is the real kick in the teeth imo. My BC Talent Spec included all 3 of these spells, but EP is the one that made me feel the worst.
I like these changes. There's no reason for Fire to have been vastly superior to the other two trees for PvE dps and mana efficiency (to the point of being literally the only sensible option for maxing PvE dps), and I hope further changes see the trees brought more in line with one another.
My guess is Elemental Precision's change comes in conjunction with the addition of spellhit rating. 6% spellhit from talents alone is a pretty huge thing since it scales and is roughly 1/3 of the total +hit you'll need to be capped vs. mobs 3 levels above you.
Yeah, that certainly is a perk for the water pet, although I would say it also has the downsides that come from being a separate entity. After all, there will be ample situations where the damn thing is going to die before delivering its payload.
The nerfing of EP, counterspell and our -threat talents really annoys me I must admit. Changes to talents and spells that are still in testing is expected but at this point they seem to be hellbent on making many changes to existing talents just to cut off a potential imbalance that quite frankly, I am not convinced will even be there in the expansion. Even with our relatively perfect raid setting for fire mages right now, we aren't eclipsing other damage classes in reality and I really don't see us doing so with a 25 person raid cap at all. I applaud the idea of making all of our talent options viable but I am certainly not sold on the methodology being used here.
My guess is Elemental Precision's change comes in conjunction with the addition of spellhit rating. 6% spellhit from talents alone is a pretty huge thing since it scales and is roughly 1/3 of the total +hit you'll need to be capped vs. mobs 3 levels above you.
True, but why then nerf the trees that get 6% and leave untouched the tree with 10%. Just seems odd that Shadow Priests and Arcane mages have the Hit rating edge on all DPS casters.
For that matter, why do Balance Druids and Elemental Shamans get more Hit rating from talents than Fire/Frost mages do? I suppose that could be solved by dropping less leather/mail gear with +hit rating on it, but still. *shakes head*
My guess is Elemental Precision's change comes in conjunction with the addition of spellhit rating. 6% spellhit from talents alone is a pretty huge thing since it scales and is roughly 1/3 of the total +hit you'll need to be capped vs. mobs 3 levels above you.
True, but why then nerf the trees that get 6% and leave untouched the tree with 10%. Just seems odd that Shadow Priests and Arcane mages have the Hit rating edge on all DPS casters.
For that matter, why do Balance Druids and Elemental Shamans get more Hit rating from talents than Fire/Frost mages do? I suppose that could be solved by dropping less leather/mail gear with +hit rating on it, but still. *shakes head*
Right now it looks like I might be arcane specced. If you look at the DPS and DPM numbers posted in this thread, they are not half bad for arcane any more. And you get slow, threat reduction and a ton of utility talents that especially fire cannot match.
Arcane has the top burst DPS with arcane blast, PoM and AP. Slow, prismatic cloak and imp CS give it survivability, especially against some classes mages usually struggle with. According to the chart posted earlier, AM spam is competitive in both DPS and DPM. And the threat reduction is unmatched in the game.
Fire has nothing to offer but DPS (okok some 3 second short range disorient). If it doesnt outclass the other trees in that department it will become useless. That goes with what I said earlier about the trees being too similar. Right now it looks like Blizzard is intent on making arcane the fire+ tree. With no significant distinguishing features, what is the point?
I recognize the problem but this isn't the solution I would use. Right now 17/31/3 is a perfect raiding spec with no drawbacks. There's no important variations on this build, all the talents you need are too easy to get. What they should have done is moved Elemental Precision 3 or 4 tiers down. Indirect boost to frost, make true elemental specs more desireable, force the player to choose between clearcasting or hit percentage.
Nerfing it is also a good idea though because I hate looking at the fire tree and saying "well, I'm either fire, or I'm near useless". They just need to make the trees viable compared to each other. If they just want to buff mages they'll give us a natural hit rating, or increase the damage from our spells, something more direct instead of talent based.
I don't agree with your point. There will always be a mathematically optimal spec for min-maxing single-target sustained DPS, no matter what Blizzard does to the talent trees. Even if the DPS edge for fire were currently only 2% over frost, you'd still see hardcore PvE mages speccing fire just to get that small edge.
BTW this is coming from a former rogue, so I have very little sympathy for the hate for fire. When it comes down to it there is only one substantial difference between fire and frost, and that is PvP viability; everything else is just the color of the bolts you are shooting. Roughly speaking, as a rogue, you have 2 options: you either get to go to raids, or you get to do well in pvp. We all had to put up with it; why should mages fare any differently? It would be nice to have a spec that has it all, but for that, you have to roll a warlock.
I dont understand the numbers posted earlier - Arcane Missiles arcane specced is still the worse DPM of any spell according to my maths, and these changes haven't altered that at all.
I dont understand the numbers posted earlier - Arcane Missiles arcane specced is still the worse DPM of any spell according to my maths, and these changes haven't altered that at all.
The DPM disadvantage is now so minor that it barely factors in any more - especially with arcane mind and meditation offseting some of the loss.
On the other hand, arcane now has a burst advantage of around 50% over fire against non-wounded targets. And lets not forget all the other goodies.
17/31/3 really does "have it all". You get combustion for your ignite team, clearcasting/moe for mana efficiency, improved scorch for your raid-enhancing debuff, blast wave for aoe burst, and elemental precision
Since when does blast wave come with a 17/31/3 spec?
17/31/3 does not have it all. It's a pure pve spec, with almost none of the survivability talents you would want for PvP. If you want to shoot fireballs and play as the epitome of a glass cannon, this is it, but dead mages do no damage in PvP. A 30/21 or some variation of elemental is ideal for small group PvP.
17/31/3 really does "have it all". You get combustion for your ignite team, clearcasting/moe for mana efficiency, improved scorch for your raid-enhancing debuff, blast wave for aoe burst, and elemental precision
Since when does blast wave come with a 17/31/3 spec?
17/31/3 does not have it all. It's a pure pve spec, with almost none of the survivability talents you would want for PvP. If you want to shoot fireballs and play as the epitome of a glass cannon, this is it, but dead mages do no damage in PvP. A 30/21 or some variation of elemental is ideal for small group PvP.
17/31/3 really does "have it all". You get combustion for your ignite team, clearcasting/moe for mana efficiency, improved scorch for your raid-enhancing debuff, blast wave for aoe burst, and elemental precision
Since when does blast wave come with a 17/31/3 spec?
17/31/3 does not have it all. It's a pure pve spec, with almost none of the survivability talents you would want for PvP. If you want to shoot fireballs and play as the epitome of a glass cannon, this is it, but dead mages do no damage in PvP. A 30/21 or some variation of elemental is ideal for small group PvP.
Blast wave comes with my 17/31/3...
So what did you sacrifice? The only things I can imagine are Improved Scorch (i.e. someone else does it for you) or Flame Throwing, and honestly you couldn't trade me 5 ranks of Arcane Meditation for either of those much less 2. IMHO, 15/33/3 is superior, and one can even argue for 10/38/3.
10/24/06, 12:44 PM
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