Maledict

Again, according to the maths I ran through (posted earlier in the thread), the DPM still matters a huge amount - arcane hasn't been boosted at all by these changes, and so it remains vastly lower DPM than Fire or frost. If there's a mistake in my maths, then of course that stuff is wrong, but right now I think arcane remains a pretty bad tree as a main damage school. Both Arcane Missiles and Arcane Blast are supposed to be high DPS / low DMP spells, which doesn't make much sense - arcane needs a stable nuke.

Also, Arcane's "burst" is on a 3 minute cooldown, and burns through mana at a rate that is far beyond sustainable even for the best equipment we've seen in game - whilst fire bursts without any actual extra mana cost on every target at the ever important enrage point. 15 seconds of supreme burst is no use outside of pvp when your fighting a raid boss, as even on Huruhan that's not enough time for the extra damage to pull ahead of what fire is doing for the remainder 20 seconds of the bosses life.

I want Arcane to be a viable alternative tree, i'm just not seeing it with these numbers and the current options.

 

Nurru

If you're a strictly pve fire mage it doesn't make much sense to go all the way down to 17 points in Arcane. You gain no dps talents in Tiers 3 and 4, so ideally you would stop at 10 and distribute those other 7 points in Fire to round out the talents you've missed. 17/31/3 is just attempting to salvage some sort of pvp viability via getting Imp CS. If you went 18 for Arcane Meditation it would make more sense, but the 17 everyone seems to aim for is almost guaranteed to be Imp CS.

ps: No, Magic Absorption is not a worthwhile pve talent.

Anyhow, call me stubborn but I'm going to likely end up 17/0/44 come level 70. It won't be the best dps but it won't be terrible and it still maintains usefulness in the arena. Come BC I expect to be 2v2ing almost constantly, so in that respect it's an ideal setup since I can maintain a powerful pvp talent spread while still having pve viability. As it stands right now I respec out of 10/0/41 on the weekends to 21/0/30, this would solve that problem.

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

Seeten

Just as a counterpoint to 17/31/3, I am currently 18/31/2 for full AM, based on Patchwerk mana consumption. So I guess I'd argue that 17/31/3 isnt completely perfect. Depending on gear, you can get away with less and less EP etc.

 

Nurru

Gut out your quotes, that's just excessively large for such a small reply.

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

Seeten

I am a strictly pve mage, but the 16th and 17th point arent in improved counterspell, as you might expect, but in arcane meditation. I am 18/31/2, for full AM. You may say it isnt useful, but my mana on patchwerk doesnt agree with you. ;) With those "Magic Absorption points" I have Improved Amplify and Improved Dampen for buffing our tanks.

 

PapaShlapa

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

Am I missing something here?

Edit: Magic Absorption is a fantastic PvE talent. Gives me back a good 4-5k mana, at least, on a typical KT kill. Probably more. It's an innervate every submerge on Ouro. Gives a decent bit of mana for the, albeit rare, full resists on Saph. It's got tons of uses.

http://siggen.xembler.org.nyud.net:8...statsO1ukn.jpg

 

Northerner

I too am 17 with the last two points in ArcMed. I don't know, maybe it is a horde thing but I'll take all the mana regen I can get that doesn't come at the direct cost of dps or damage-until-dry. Naturally I do not have pyro/BW in my fire tree, although I can see the attraction of course. Typically AE situations are not critical to raid success though and while BW would be nice to have, I'm not going to scrounge up the points for it.

I wouldn't mind having imp CS even for pve though, it's just not something I want so badly that I'd give up the regen for.

EDIT: In fact, I use the pretty cookie-cutter build linked directly above me there.

 

Kailhasa

So does the Emp Fireball change mean they're also going to nerf Shadow and Flame, Wrath of Cenarius, and all those other similar/identical talents?

It'd better. /grumble

 

flyinfungi

I'm looking at this to be a staple Arcane/Fire build

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

The only points I would change around depending on encounters are either 3 points out of Arcane Mind and into Magic Absorbtion, or 3 pts out of arcane focus if my hit was capped.

I am also rather reluctant to put points into IMP arcane missles. I'm not sure they warrant 5 talent points except on those odd AOE damage encounters. If so I would probally put point in fire up to something like this...

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

With the imp fireblast as a filler point.

Fungi cause the great majority, an estimated two-thirds, of infectious plant diseases. They include all white and true rusts, smuts, needle casts, leaf curls, mildew, sooty molds, and anthracnoses; most leaf, fruit, and flower spots; cankers; blights; scabs, root, stem, fruit, and wood rots; wilts; leaf, shoot, and bud galls; and many others. -Encyclopedia Britannica

 

Seeten

I'm Alliance, so I have Pyro and Blastwave in place of Burning Soul.

 

Nurru

For the point investment, 5 points in Magic Absorption is just far too situational for my tastes. There are no encounters in the game aside from Sapphiron and Viscidus where I would stack resist gear (Can't say for Kel) and for Visc my mana pool pretty much doesn't matter anyway. When we bother doing BWL I don't need FR on Vael and on Firemaw I admit I spent my time trying to see how high I can get my debuff without dying (28 is my personal record). So until they fix the talent so it works for partials I can't imagine it being worthwhile in the future unless you're desperate for talent prereqs. Come BC Clearcasting and +6% Arcane Blast crit will probably be a better investment.

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

Seeten

Spending points in Improved Amplify Magic for Naxx seems a better place to put those "Magic Absorption" talents for at least 2 of the mages.

 

Copernicus

After doing some math, I get (before hit%, +1000 dmg, 8% crit, 500 int, 0.2s delay), nothing with CoE/S...

Fireball-- 100% (before Molten Fury, with Fire Vuln) - 17/41/3 spec
Scorch-- 72% (before Molten Fury, with Fire Vuln) - 17/41/3
Fireball (33/28)-- 99% (with Fire Vuln)
Frostbolt (Deep Frost)-- 84% (no Water Elemental, w/ Winter's Chill)
Frostbolt (40/21)-- 86% (no Winter's Chill)
Frostbolt (40/21)-- 94% (w/ Winter's Chill)
Arcane Missiles-- 85%
Arcane Blast-- 119%

Current Frostbolt-- 71%
Current Fireball-- 87% (with Fire Vuln)

Expansion Elemental Shaman and Balance Druids-
Lightning Bolt-- 86%
Wrath-- 82%
Starfire-- 90%

------

I really don't want to do the math on a hybridized 33/28 Arcane/Frost build.

A pure Arcane damage build is weaker than a normal Frost or Fire build, until hit% comes into the equation. 40/21 or other builds like it are competitive with Fire if there's another frost mage in the group to provide Winter's Chill. And I'm still waiting on official info for Water Elemental, Force of Nature, and Molten Fury/Ignite interaction before I include it in the math. I'm not that happy with this revision, as it seems that Blizzard is content to tone down the mage from its current level.

 

Aphyrax

I did the math too. Currently deep fire is still powerful sinc it offers the best sustained DPS and DPM, even after the nerf. However, for deep frost it looks bleak. Deep arcane has slightly higher DPS with AM spam and somewhat lower DPM. But it has so much more to offer, from slow to the efficiency talents to imp CS to PoM to AP - and lets not forget arcane blast, the best burst damage available to us. Deep frost has - well ice block and ice barrier as usual. The water elemental is needed just to keep up with arcane.

The latest round of nerfs also nerfed frost, when frost was already reeling. That tree desperately needs another good talent, else I do not see much use for it. Ice block can only compensate for so many shortcomings.

 

Lhivera

Are you accounting for Judgement of Wisdom on the target? Arcane Missiles gets five times the benefit from it of any other nuke. If you're horde, that doesn't help you now, but it will in TBC.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

silya

Not 5 times. JoW does not proc on every hit.

 

krucifix85

Can I get confirmation on the change to Counterspell from a Mage playing beta?

Is Counterspell still able to be cast at "any time", but it now just invokes the GCD afterwards?

Just unsure on the specifics, thanks.

http://ctprofiles.net/13134

 

Lhivera

Yes, 5 times. It's a 50% proc, and can proc on each missile volley. There are five volleys.

Scorch, Fireball, and Frostbolt can all expect to receive 74 * 0.5 = 37 mana per cast on average. Arcane Missiles can expect to receive 74 * 0.5 * 5 = 185 mana per cast on average.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Lhivera

Does anybody know whether frost channeling + elemental precision results in 82% mana cost, or 0.85 * 0.97 = 82.45% mana cost? (Yes, I know it's a pretty trivial difference, but still...)

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

silya

Sure, per cast. But measuring mana per cast is the wrong metric. You want to measure how much mana you get back per unit time. Specifically, you want expected mana back per second.

Assuming 50% proc, you get:

Arcane missile: 74 * 0.5 = 37 mana per second
Frost bolt: 74 * 0.5 / 2.5 = 14.8 mana per second
Fireball: 74 * 0.5 / 3 = 12.3 mana per second
Scorch: 74 * 0.5 / 1.5 = 24.7 mana per second

The actual numbers are a little different due to the well known phenomenon of casting lag.

Clearly, the claimed '5 times the benefit' thing is wrong, but AM does get more benefit from JoW.

 

Lhivera

I suppose it depends on what you're calculating. If I'm calculating DPS and DPM, I divide the damage dealt per cast by the cast time + latency, and I divide the damage dealt per cast by the mana cost per cast. In this case, the per-cast mana return is exactly what I want.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

silya

Yes, you can compute DPM that way. But because damage per cast of arcane missile is greater than that of fireball or frostbolt, you will still not end up with 5 times the benefit _in DPM_ for jow+am vs jow+[any other mage spell]. That's my only beef with what you said.

 

Maledict

They won't change the others, it was just fireball that had gotten out of hand. It was higher DPM and DPS than any other nuke in the game, and it scaled better than any other nuke because of the combination of talents you could get for it.

What they *should* do however, is give Scorch a 10% bonus to spell damage from this talent, like they have Wrath for Druids. Scorch is really losing a huge amount of appeal in the expansion, and it would be nice to give it a bit of a bigger boost.

---

Re. Judgement of Wisdom - I don't factor it in because with 2 / 3 paladins per raid maximum, and with what every alliance player always says about maintaining the judgement on raid mobs, I think it's a bit disingenious to use it to justify Arcanes DPM. Especially as a lot of fights involve more than one boss, even in 5 player groups, and as soon as that happens Arcane Missiles returns to being a silly ungodly amount of mana per cast. Whilst it's a nice boost, I don't think it's strong enough or will be up on the target your hitting long enough to justify moulding all our theorycraft around it.

 

silya

In my experience raiding Naxx/AQ40/BWL on alliance side the following is true:

If an encounter lasts long enough to make mana a problem, and there is at least one paladin in the raid then JoW is perma-up on current target.

A lot of the times JoW doesn't appear on trash, etc. But on trash DPM isn't generally important anyways. In good guilds JoW is up by reflex, just like warlock curses.

I think you are wrong to dismiss AM so quickly. I think it might be worth it to jump through a few hoops to make it a viable nuke, just because the -40% threat is so good.

 

Xunwael

This has already been answered in the thread. Yes, it does invoke the GCD and it can't be cast during one.

"Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice."
- Clark's Law