TBC Mage Theorycrafting - Page 110

Maligne · 08/02/07, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by Stein

You describe the white miss vs. partial correctly as i understand it. The intereesting part is that the extra white miss you reference on frostbolt can be overcome with +hit where the corresponding partial resists on the other spell cannot be overcome.

I don't think so. From the way the calculations I posted above are worded, it looks like the resistance modifier is applied after your +hit. So you could have +20% chance to hit, making you capped at 99%, but then the resisance modifier would get applied. So it would look like:

0.83 (83% for +3 levels mob) + 0.20 (+20% spell hit) = 0.99

0.99*0.5 (50% damage from frost) = 0.495

The game will roll a number between 0 and 1, and if it’s less than 0.495, the frost bolt will hit for full damage. Otherwise, a resist message will appear.

So no, the extra white miss on Frostbolt cannot be countered by stacking more +hit. It can be by using spell penetration, but in PVE mobs either have a negligable amount of resistance or an extremely high amount so it's usually not worth it.

Stein · 08/02/07, 2:06 PM

0.83 (83% for +3 levels mob) + 0.06 (+6% spell hit) = 0.89

0.89*0.5 (50% damage from frost) = 0.445

if that formula is exactly what is used in game (specifically, there is no ceiling of 1 placed on the spell hit portion), then +hit can in fact overcome level based resist as people have speculated (and tested right before BC launch). For example:

0.83 (83% for +3 levels mob) + 0.18 (+18% spell hit) = 1.01

1.01*0.5 (50% damage from frost) = 0.505

Stein · 08/02/07, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Maligne

If you want to overcome the resistance stat and partial resists, there is spell penetration.

spell penetration cannot overcome level based partial resists

Vontre · 08/02/07, 2:08 PM

I dug up my solution, and I know the information came from these boards -somewhere- a long time ago. The simple answer is Frostbolt isn't affected by the level-based partial resist factor. I believe several hit-capped ice mages routinely got 1-0% miss rates on bosses as evidence. It basically means that frostbolt gets a free 6% damage increase on priniciple - which still leaves it painfully below fire and arcane. And yes this has been in the spreadsheet for a long time.

Maligne · 08/02/07, 2:08 PM

Originally Posted by Stein

if that formula is exactly what is used in game (specifically, there is no ceiling of 1 placed on the spell hit portion), then +hit can in fact overcome level based resist as people have speculated (and tested right before BC launch). For example:

0.83 (83% for +3 levels mob) + 0.18 (+18% spell hit) = 1.01

1.01*0.5 (50% damage from frost) = 0.505

Why wouldn't it be what's used in game when Eyonix said it was?

And again, you can't get 1.01 because hit is capped at 99%.

Stein · 08/02/07, 2:13 PM

0.83 (83% for +3 levels mob) + 0.20 (+20% spell hit) = 0.99

0.99*0.5 (50% damage from frost) = 0.495

You're assuming the ceiling of .99 is applied to the first part of the equation and not the entire equation. I believe there was some pretty extensive testing done that supports the ceiling of .99 being applied to the entire equation, not just the first part. Basically:

(Ceiling((chance to hit) + (+spell hit), .99))*(resist reduction)

VS

Ceiling(((chance to hit) + (+spell hit))*(resist reduction), .99)

Stein · 08/02/07, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by Vontre

It basically means that frostbolt gets a free 6% damage increase on priniciple - which still leaves it painfully below fire and arcane. And yes this has been in the spreadsheet for a long time.

Good to know. Thanks.

Copernicus · 08/02/07, 2:17 PM

Originally Posted by Stein

You describe the white miss vs. partial correctly as i understand it. The intereesting part is that the extra white miss you reference on frostbolt can be overcome with +hit where the corresponding partial resists on the other spell cannot be overcome.

(incidentally, resists may be overcome by +hit much the same way in pvp (I believe). So, locks and spriests facing a shadow resist stacking team can land dots, fears and such (binary spells) at a higher rate than their direct damage spells if their hit exceeds 3%.)

1. Frostbolt has the same 17% miss rate that all other spells do in PvE. There is no additional miss rate that it has for being a binary spell. The partial resists coming from level-based resists are only on binary spells and are only partial resists.

2. Non-binary spells have a two-roll system for determining resists. The first roll is the hit% chance while the second roll is the partial resist rate (at least against players). I believe it's the same for mobs, but I don't have a WWS of a hit-capped fire mage DPSing Supremus to get numbers from.

3. Binary spells have a one-roll system for determine resists. In this case, hit% can overcome resist rates, but at a much worse itemization than with -resist gear.

---

I haven't tested hit rating vs resists in months though, so that could have changed in TBC. It's a quick and easy test though- chaincast rank 1 frostbolt on someone with 50% resist while being well over the hit cap to test binary spells, and rank 1 arcane missiles in the same situation to test non-binary spells.

EDIT: Transposed binary and non-binary accidently. Fixed now.

Maligne · 08/02/07, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by Stein

You're assuming the ceiling of .99 is applied to the first part of the equation and not the entire equation. I believe there was some pretty extensive testing done that supports the ceiling of .99 being applied to the entire equation, not just the first part. Basically:

(Ceiling((chance to hit) + (+spell hit), .99))*(resist reduction)

VS

Ceiling(((chance to hit) + (+spell hit))*(resist reduction), .99)

I had never heard of the ceiling being applied after the resistance modifier, but I guess that would be correct if it was.

Does it really make sense though? Think about in arenas - someone wearing an average amount of resist gear probably has around 20% reduction. You're saying that by simply switching to my boss gear I can pretty much negate that resistance gear. I realize this is only for binary spells, but why hasn't anyone brought this up in response to the "nerf resistance gear" cliams? And why did they put penetration in the game if simply stacking more +hit acomplishes the same thing?

Maligne · 08/02/07, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by Copernicus

1. Frostbolt has the same 17% miss rate that all other spells do in PvE. There is no additional miss rate that it has for being a binary spell. The partial resists coming from level-based resists are only on binary spells and are only partial resists.

2. Binary spells have a two-roll system for determining resists. The first roll is the hit% chance while the second roll is the partial resist rate (at least against players). I believe it's the same for mobs, but I don't have a WWS of a hit-capped fire mage DPSing Supremus to get numbers from.

3. Non-binary spells have a one-roll system for determine resists. In this case, hit% can overcome resist rates, but at a much worse itemization than with -resist gear.

---

I haven't tested hit rating vs resists in months though, so that could have changed in TBC. It's a quick and easy test though- chaincast rank 1 frostbolt on someone with 50% resist while being well over the hit cap to test binary spells, and rank 1 arcane missiles in the same situation to test non-binary spells.

I think you confused binary and non-binary. Frostbolt is a binary spell, only has 1 roll, and is incapable of being partially resisted. Binary spells either fully hit or fully don't.

Stein · 08/02/07, 2:53 PM

Originally Posted by Maligne

Does it really make sense though? Think about in arenas - someone wearing an average amount of resist gear probably has around 20% reduction. You're saying that by simply switching to my boss gear I can pretty much negate that resistance gear. I realize this is only for binary spells, but why hasn't anyone brought this up in response to the "nerf resistance gear" cliams? And why did they put penetration in the game if simply stacking more +hit acomplishes the same thing?

I agree that as an intended design, it doesn't make any sense. But i can see how it might have ended up that way from a code evolution standpoint.

Whether it makes sense or not, i'm pretty sure that's how it works (based on the testing of some frost mages about a year ago...their results posted here, but lost in a forum move i think).

As for pvp, i think the dots can still be partially resisted on each tick. So only CC sorts of things gain the full benefit of the +hit.

Seems like it would be an easy test to do. I'll try to find a lock to run some tests for me real quick.

necropsis · 08/02/07, 3:05 PM

I dont have excel on this computer, can someone just give me a quick which does more sustained damage.

The toon IS capped on spell hit.

Is the 8 spell crit gem < or > the +12 spell damage gem?

When doing gem slots I went for spell hit on gear when possible, and then I would replace spell hit gems with crit gems to keep myself just at my max. I considered dropping the 15 spell hit to glove chant for a 10 crit rating chant, only it seems way better to get 15 spell hit out of a chant than 10 crit would ever be...hence exchanging gems.

I spent about 2 hours doing searches for gems and I found a little info, but not so much as to tell me which will help my dps better.

I am currently a 40-0-21 mage but will likely be going to a 10-48-3 varient now that I have good replacements for my shadoweave set.

Thanks in advance!

Ilmater · 08/02/07, 3:12 PM

I apologize if this has been posted, but reading 101 pages to find this isn't in my list of things to do.

For boss fights, do you all use mage armor or molten armor as fire spec? I use molten as I find that pots and evoc are usually enough for boss fights, and my spirit is so low, I'm not sure how much benefit I'd get from mage armor.

Thoughts? Am I way off here?

necropsis · 08/02/07, 3:14 PM

Use whatever you need to do the job. If your not running into mana issues and your not really taking magical damage (even then id argue against using it unless you needed it for mana), then use molten armor. I keep a steady supply of major mana pots rather than supers and just chug them like candy and never have a mana issue with gems and evo as well.

Excellent · 08/02/07, 3:52 PM

After experiencing a "group without a shadowpriest" last night on void reaver (I know, simple fight, but, you must keep putting out constant high level damage) I had expended all my resources at about 30%. That was a first and a mana management wake up call...not everyone can be in the SP groups. VR died of course but I was about to have a heart attack. Running out of mana = embarassing.

So for lurker, to avoid the same problem, I went and put on mage armor. It didn't seem really necessary as the closest I got to the bottom of my mana bar was halfway down, and by then my cooldowns were up. I am not sure how effective it really was.

Necropsis is right - I think just using whatever you think you'll need to get the job done is the best way. It is horribly embarassing to run out of mana and have expended all your resources. I think I am so used to being in the SP group that when I'm not, I have to switch gears more quickly. A mage without mana might as well be a dead mage.

Today I'm working on what I should use for specific fights and how to keep the damage rolling when my mana supply is fragile. Yay, research!

Stein · 08/02/07, 4:04 PM

252 SR and lock having 0 +hit & +?? penetration (forgot to ask penn) -> 18/40 fear

252 SR and spriest with 4/5 shadow focus & 109 +hit & +20 penetration -> 28/40 fear

Not sure if that's statistically significant or not.

necropsis · 08/02/07, 4:06 PM

It's sooo embarassing to run out of mana. Makes you feel worthless..."look at me, I'm wanding!".

On fights I know I will have trouble, even with pots and such, I start off with mage armor, and then partway through I move back. When you get used to having a shadow priest and all of a sudden you dont, if you havn't made gear or play style changes you're setting yourself up for failure.

[DRF]Solmyr · 08/02/07, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by necropsis

I dont have excel on this computer, can someone just give me a quick which does more sustained damage.

The toon IS capped on spell hit.

Is the 8 spell crit gem < or > the +12 spell damage gem?

When doing gem slots I went for spell hit on gear when possible, and then I would replace spell hit gems with crit gems to keep myself just at my max. I considered dropping the 15 spell hit to glove chant for a 10 crit rating chant, only it seems way better to get 15 spell hit out of a chant than 10 crit would ever be...hence exchanging gems.

I spent about 2 hours doing searches for gems and I found a little info, but not so much as to tell me which will help my dps better.

I am currently a 40-0-21 mage but will likely be going to a 10-48-3 varient now that I have good replacements for my shadoweave set.

Thanks in advance!

HIT > DAM > CRIT. So the +9 gem is better than your 8crit. I was going over your build... what is your rotation? Heavy ABs filled in with Frostbolts? You are already way over the +hit cap. Anything past 16% hit is pretty much a waste.

When you are going 104803, repsec into Spellfire and you should be golden.

necropsis · 08/02/07, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by [DRF]Solmyr

HIT > DAM > CRIT. So the +9 gem is better than your 8crit. I was going over your build... what is your rotation? Heavy ABs filled in with Frostbolts? You are already way over the +hit cap. Anything past 16% hit is pretty much a waste.

When you are going 104803, repsec into Spellfire and you should be golden.

I JUST got the shoulders in TK last night so im 21 above my hit cap since I didn't have time ot replace my gems last night. Just bad timing on seeing my armory =)

I have just respecced to

World of Warcraft - Talent Calculator - Mage

This spec focused on large crits, and keeping my spell hit maximized. With TBC I should be proccing 1 time every 12-16 seconds or so? I feel gimped w/o my spreadsheets so if I am wrong please correct me.

My rotation with my old spec was 2 AB's then 3 frostbolts or 3 and 1 depending on mana consumption. If I was lucky enough to have 2 shadow priests then I would lace into heavy arcane damage. I was not lucky enough to have any winters chill bots in the group or I would then go straight frostbolt spam. With this spec the best sustained dps I was able to get was around 900 and I was lucky enough to not have to move from my dps location the entire fight, and didn't take any damage so it was straight dps dps dps.

Now, since I am testing a heavy crit scorch build to get the largest use out of my TBC would the same still apply in terms of gems? This is my last test build before I end up going 10-48-3, but I want to be able to say I've tried and successfully used most mage builds.

necropsis · 08/02/07, 7:00 PM

Okay, so I just tested my frost build vs my scorch build vs my 10-48-3 build. I dont understand why but I was never able to break 750 dps with 10-48-3, I got 900 with frost, and 800 with scorch. This was on anachronos in tanaris with only personal buffs

croswen · 08/02/07, 7:04 PM

Originally Posted by necropsis

Okay, so I just tested my frost build vs my scorch build vs my 10-48-3 build. I dont understand why but I was never able to break 750 dps with 10-48-3, I got 900 with frost, and 800 with scorch. This was on anachronos in tanaris with only personal buffs

Sorry to say but a 10/48/3 build is for casting fireballs.

To my knowledge Scorch builds are Arc/Fire. I think the cookie cutter build for a scorch build looks something like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

manly · 08/02/07, 7:16 PM

if you know youre going to go oom, i don't see a reason to not chain cast scorch, and pyroblast / AM or clearcast (depends on build). I know I often cast rank 1 arcane explosion in hyjal and full rank on clearcast -- no matter the rank, it still procs TLC for just as much.

And both your example with 270 sr gear on a player would be bad, the conversation was about innate resists. It is hard to tell if non innate resists will affect the outcome of the results. What you want is to have a very very high level difference between the 2 players.

necropsis · 08/02/07, 7:27 PM

Originally Posted by croswen

Sorry to say but a 10/48/3 build is for casting fireballs.

To my knowledge Scorch builds are Arc/Fire. I think the cookie cutter build for a scorch build looks something like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I tested all 3 builds, thats why I said frost vs scorch vs 10-48-3. With frost I did AB and frostbolt spam, with option 2 I only did scorch spam and pomed pyro. Granted I dont have a decent chest for fire, but scorch spec was still outperforming 10-48-3 and I can't figure out why. I did waaay better as a frost mage and I AM at 745 spell damage when I tested fireball and scorch. On paper it shouldn't be like that. We're fighting Anachronos is it possible that he is resistant to fire?

Stein · 08/02/07, 7:34 PM

Originally Posted by manly

And both your example with 270 sr gear on a player would be bad, the conversation was about innate resists. It is hard to tell if non innate resists will affect the outcome of the results. What you want is to have a very very high level difference between the 2 players.

it indicates that the ceiling( X, .99) function includes the normal resist check on a binary spells. While not proving the same for innate resists, it's definitely solid support of what others have already demonstrated.

croswen · 08/02/07, 8:25 PM

Originally Posted by necropsis

I tested all 3 builds, thats why I said frost vs scorch vs 10-48-3. With frost I did AB and frostbolt spam, with option 2 I only did scorch spam and pomed pyro. Granted I dont have a decent chest for fire, but scorch spec was still outperforming 10-48-3 and I can't figure out why. I did waaay better as a frost mage and I AM at 745 spell damage when I tested fireball and scorch. On paper it shouldn't be like that. We're fighting Anachronos is it possible that he is resistant to fire?

Anachronos? You mean Anachronos the bronze dragon? or do you mean Archimonde, the end boss at Battle for Mount Hyjal?

If you mean the end boss at the Battle for Mount Hyjal, I have no clue about his level of FR. If he did have some, I would think that Scorch would be affected by it at the same level of %.

Considering you where testing this on a boss, You may want to consider how you played for that fight or how it happened.

Fireball is sometimes hard to squeeze in if you have to keep moving. It may explain why you did better as a Scorch mage verse a Deep Fire mage.

Other possible issues that I can see are:

Lack of CoE or Misery
Mana issues as a Deep Fire. I know I have to chain pot on certain farm encounters.
Having to restack the Scorch debuff as Deep Fire?
Unluckiness. (IE something breaks in the middle of an evocation)
Did you have to bandage as Deep Fire?
Did you have less DPS Time with the Deep Fire build?

Do you have a WWS parse of those fights so that I can look at?