Does the DoT actually stack? I guess I've never noticed that behavior - I always assumed it overwrote itself, and in 5 minutes of sloppy testing the only way I can get the DoTs to stack is by using different ranks.

I would swear that it did and I had done seen it with my own eyes, but lots of people will tell you that about Elvis as well. I guess I'll do some more testing when I get home from work in an hour.

Most of the damage is from the initial strike anyway, which at >50% crit talented is pretty heavy.

The DoT from flamestrike doesn't stack, it overwrites itself (unless they changed the mechanism recently).

That's why the best AoE *from range* was always Flamestrike - Blizzard - PoM+Flamestrike again since that way the DoTs don't overwrite themselves. Haven't done the math yet but not sure if that will come close to the dps from AE spam or not.

As for Bloodlust use it with Blizzard for an even larger dps boost, since the DoT portion is unaffected by the haste (and especially if they don't stack - which I am 99.9% sure they don't). Although on that fight I would rather save the Bloodlust to deal with the walking smash factory then to deal with the weapons.

I've tried focus-blizzard and I'm not entirely convinced that the haste effects the damage ticks. Last time I really paid attention to it, I couldn't tell if the ticks were coming any faster, it didn't seem like it. The behavior is screwy with a doubt, the channel bar is for 8 seconds and it just ends after 4.

I'm positive that it comes faster, it's like watching lightning numbers on my screen compared to the normal slow paced blizzards.

I still have combatstats little meter running and when I focused a blizzard it was definitely hitting a lot faster then normal. I've seen it spike to over 6k when used on packs in Hyjal which doesn't seem like much but since it should be AoE capped at 3600dps it definitely was getting a boost from the focus proc.

I've started AEing and then using Blizzard if I get a proc. Fun but be ready to blink and invis since you will probably pull aggro (mostly I'll just run out of melee range AEing the whole way and then Blizzard before the proc fades - lots of numbers is almost as much fun as Big numbers).

Testing confirms the DoTs still don't stack, I don't know what I thought I saw but it must be like that time my uncle said that he went on a space ship.

Even so, Flamestrike is more mana efficient than Arcane Explosion unless you're really unlucky. Any of us on here should have >33% crit rate and targetting more than 3 mobs, so Master of Elements makes Flamestrike considerably cheaper. It's also more DPS than Arcane Explosion spam, even without the imaginary stacking DoTs.

I need some help and I figured it would be worth seeing if anyone here is up to it. Our mages don't seem to listen to much of what we say, apparently because we don't raid with a mage character, and the leadership of our guild feels that our mages are under-performing. We believe the cause to be spec and gear related.

We've tried repeatedly to explain the value of +hit, yet some still seem to believe that +crit is more worthwhile. I don't really expect anyone to get into that too much since it's well documented in several places. The other issue we believe we have is that our mages are claiming their arcane builds are fine. We've recently begun farming Void Reaver and have just killed Lurker last week. That being the case, none of our mages currently have the 2pc T5 bonus.

What I'm looking for from you guys is some feedback on their specs regarding whether or not they are properly geared for them or if they should simply not be using them for different reasons.

Armory Links:

Flipy

Quick rundown (looks to have logged in some pvp gear at this time)-
Dmg: 820 (942 arc/fire)
Hit: 52 (4.12%)
Crit: 26.68%
Trinkets: [Insignia of the Horde], [Xi'ri's Gift]

My thoughts: Gem choices are bad; some pvp gear though, so he may have pve gear with different gems, but I'm not counting on it. Hit rating is terrible. Glove enchant is also terrible as +hit or +dmg would have been better. Build may be ok for scorch build, but not really knowing what kind of spell rotation that build would use, it's hard for me to judge if he is even using it correctly.

Majaninnu

Rundown-
Dmg: 918
Hit: 106 (8.4%)
Crit: 19.08%
Trinkets: Icon, Xi'ri's

Thoughts: +8 crit gem should be some form of hit gem. All the WWS reports have him as Arc/Fire, and he has respecced Arc/Frost. Arc/Frost is weaker than Fire, Arc/Fire, and Frost, no?

Yamimakai

Rundown-
Dmg: 975
Hit: 63 (4.99%)
Crit: 24.22%
Trinkets: Quag's Eye, [Commander's Badge] (hopefully just for pvp or possibly tanking Krosh during HKM)

Thoughts: Again an Arc/Frost build Gems are mostly good, +crit glove enchant is not. Low hit rating, hopefully due to pvp gear that isn't used for raids. Yami performs well at times, but seems to lack consistency. Thats obviously not something we can fix here, though. My concern is that we believe he can be doing much better with a different spec and he obviously believes otherwise.

The others:

Malim (fire) is typically our top mage in terms of output (DC'd on the Lurker kill around 16-17%)

Calipto (frost), who has been level 70 for only a couple of weeks is about where we expect for a somewhat undergeared frost mage.

Nethered (frost), obviously needs to gem/enchant some items, but otherwise is about what we'd expect from a frost mage.

WWS Reports:

VR #1
VR #2
VR #3


First Lurker kill


Gruul's Lair


I think that should be enough information. If not, let me know and I'll see what I can do. After doing the research I have on the topic, I've come to believe pretty firmly that the arcane specs listed above are not optimal for our guys due to a few reasons, but none of those mages believe it and tell me that I'm wrong, they're fine. Hopefully if any of you decide to take a look at this stuff and offer some advice, we can get this issue resolved for both the leadership and mages as it's been something we've been concerned with and have been unsuccessful at solving. Thanks in advance for any help that can be provided.

How are you getting that conclusion? 3 second cast vs 1.5 sec GCD. 10 yard radius vs 5 yard radius. With 1300 damage and a deep fire spec flamestrike will do 2324dps when spammed and AE will do 2449dps. If you have the 3 points in Imp Flamestrike then it jumps to 2561dps but it still has such a small radius of effectiveness that I think you are better off starting with Flamestrike and then switching to Blizzard or AE.

Honestly, I go for arcane explosion despise stacking haste. Its as simple as a matter of range and TLC procs.

Removed since not really constructive

I've begun to tell my shaman to drop tranquil air totem on Hyjal trash, it allows me to start AE much earlier and literally spam untill I'm out of mana and have to regen without getting aggro unless I do something like focus'ed blizzard or clearcasting flamestrike. The threat reduction of Arcane Subtlety + Blessing of Salvation and Tranquil Air is wonderful. I guess you would prefer something else if specced frost or fire, but AE really really shines with arcane spec and TLC.

I have recently applied for a guild thats 3/4 TK and 6/6 SSC. Inspecting their mages I see that all of them are using the 2 parts setbonus of T5 and are arcane speced.

Me myslef is convinced that the old 10/48/3 is a much better specc. Running the numbers in vontre's spreadsheet i would produce about the same dps with my spec as with a arcane specc even if I picked up to pieces of T5.

Problem is that they dont run CoE and that really changes it for me, it would probably mean that I would have to respec arcane to keep up with the dps.

I can agree that arcane could be benefitial due to the fact that the guild is killing A'lar but on the other hand I see alot of downsides with a arcane specc.

I'm not gonna list all the downsides and upsides since they have been pretty much discussed for 120 pages

My questions are:

1)Whats the common way of mages to spec when their guild is doing TK
2)If that spec is arcane shouldnt we consider fire now that tax is getting removed (let other classes shine on A'lar)?

Things I've seen different guilds do; either they bring like 1 or zero mage(s) to al'ar so it doesn't really matter what spec he/she is or they all respec to frost/arcane or they are full time arcane. Pick any one of them and you are good to go.

I'm not quite sure what your second question is about, the reason alot of people specced arcane and are fulltime arcane is because it's the only spec where you aren't "gimped" one way or the other - be it DPS/Survivability or straight up immunity with any of the encounters on t5 and t6 levels. When 2.3 hits and the coefficient nerf is undone frost fire and arcane will all be very close to eachother in terms of potential dps according to the theorycraft done already. So I guess it comes down to what you prefer to play in the long run and spec whatever suits your guild/you the best for now.

We go al'ar with 3-4 mages and none of them are frost nor arcane. All are cookiecutter 10/48/3 builds using Arcanespells just for Al'ar cause we cba wasting 100g to get to KT. Does it make the fight longer? Yes you lose like 500 dps per person or something, is it manageable? Yepp, just requires the rest of raid to do their best =) We did of course all spec frost in the beginning when learning though.

So whats the main reasons that you are not going arc/fire?

Well we are under the same belief, that a guild that does SSC / TK on weekley basics should have their mages fire specced because its more benefitial to the guild. A'lar should be no trouble if you have it on farm.

The thing I am comming at here is to find more information and proof and calculations that back me up in this.

The main reason is simply performance and output. We've had 2 mages that specced arcane with 2part t5 and both jumped noticably in damage compared to what they did with fire but they never beat me on anything but trash. What I did notice though is one of those mages after he specced back to fire (Only gear-difference I can think of between the two specs was belt of blasting really) is that he now has a much higher, stable and consistent damage-output as firemage compared to what he had before he tried arcane. Just feels like the playstyle of arcane taught him something about fire.

Though it is true that AB spam with 2part is very high dps (comparativly less in 2.3 with 10% nerf fix) the forgiving nature of firespec compared to AB spec (screwing up the cycle etc) and it's comparative and often higher damage-output is just a hands down win for fire in my opinion. With a fully buffed raid, exploiting combustion to get 4 crits with trinkets, getting bloodlust and so forth it's just extremely good with fire spec. Only one I've seen beat me in pure out DPS on weapons on KT in our tries now is two of our rogues getting procs and pots and hitting 1400-1600 DPS. Of course AB spam there would be awesome though but the DPM would be horrible.

Arc/Fire is worse than deep fire when the boss isn't fire immune

Arcane spec is highest damage but relies on shadow priests
Fire spec is medium damage and gets a decent help from shadow priests (2.3 it's on par with arcane according to current estimates)
Frost spec doesn't really benefit from shadow priests, does lowest damage, but doesn't rely on shadow priests

Btw saying arcane rotations are bad dps because they're "to hard" is a cop-out :P

AM Spec is highest, AB is arguably higher because you can spam it to dump mana.

It's on par now as long as you can use fireblast and you arent talking a overgeared hastevielding tlc-loving mofogeared char =D

I'm saying arcane rotations are less forgiving. It's like stopcasting with quartz, it takes more focus/brainprocessing from learning a fight and sometimes that isn't good especially when 2xAB-3xAB+whatever filler isn't really higher DPS than straight out fire.

His fireball dmg is terribly low, he casts a lot of non instant pyroblasts.
He specced wand spec., only 1 point in fire range and 0 in imp fireball.
He should respec to deep fire (or deep arcane if there is often a shaddow priest). If he speccs fire, he needs a lot more hit, gems are a very effective way to do, if he speccs arcane, needa a MSD helm and change gems to spell dmg.
Enchants and gems are bad as you said, one ring has no enchant. PS: 1H+ OH instead 2H.
He could easily do 150 more dps just respeccing and cast different spells.

Green gems (and bad ones (int)) in Frozen Shadow., bad / no enchant for helm, shoulder, bracer. Some bad blue items, heroic badges and craftables are better options.
Don't know what he's casting with this spec, for AM he has no the wrong equipp (frozen shadow.) and no MSD, for frostspells the specc is terrible.
Should spec deep frost. Arcane/Frost is ok if there is another deep frost mage but what he has actually is no Arc/Frost specc.

1600/1400 average frostbolt dmg way to low even for this equipp (COE/self buffs missing?).
Seems to have some hit gear for pve because low miss rates in wws. Main Problem is specc. Should specc deep frost or deep arcane.

Could change some crit/dmg to dmg only gems and hopefully has a 1H + OF combo for raids. Fireball average dmg could be a bit higher, VR seems to not have COE but have COA, _fix that_. PS:Some WWS seem to be incomplete (no VR debuffs).

Well don't take someone with 400dps to a 25 raid, 1300 average frostbolt dmg is way to low for a raid, even unbuffed against non raid mobs and with this equipp, that is low.

Badges offhand, better enchant for Shoulder and legs.
However why the hell does he has points in frost with spellfire set? Get him specc to deep fire and some better gems and he will nearly double dps, AM spam is also doable with a MSD with that gear but gems will be a problem there.

Overall ist sounds like deep fire will get a big benefit over arcane after 2.3?

And if a arcane mage require a Shadow Priest to be able to have good dps cycles. Running 4 arcane mages shouldnt really be the best for the raids then since you might be able to give other classes the SP isntead of all the mages?

I mean, I know the hunters in my old guild kept asking for shadow priests but never got then since mages where considered to need them more.