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Old 10/12/07, 4:56 PM   #3101
Roywyn
Bald Bull
 
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Roywyn
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Replying to a question concerning the new meta gems from Vontre's thread.
Need some testing on how the 3% crit gem actually works. And on the MSD.

Originally Posted by Cardynal View Post
If the MSD is a 45 second cooldown...and if the proc rate went up to 33%...then you would cast 18 fireballs per 1 proc...assuming no passive haste. This gives it basically a passive haste rating of 15.26 when using fire. This actually scales negativly with passive haste.

I'm seeing a 23dps gain when using the new caster meta gem (12crit/3%crit dmg) over the New MSD for deep fire.
Er, what? Assuming 18 casts per proc (which is pretty close to our old 20 cast for 5% proc chance), you get 18 casts in the time of 17.5, that is 18/17.5 = 102.857% = +2.857% haste = 45 haste rating. Not sure where your 15.26 came from?

The sheet says the following (T6 level gear with haste bracers and ring, fireball spam):
No gem - 1809. 12 dmg gem - 1819. Old MSD - 1853. RED (critdmg*1.03) - 1839. New CSD (RED+12crit) - 1847.

It all depends on how the multiplier works. Will it take a 200 crit to 203 or 206? 150 crit to 153 or 154.5, and then also affect ignite?
And on how the MSD will affect fire specs.
And you need a second blue gem for CSD, but you might get some benefit for replacing rad gems with orange to get set bonuses from the pieces you socketed the purple gems in.

Glorious headache of micromanagement.


Note:
CSD = Chaotic Skyfire Diamond, Chaotic Skyfire Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft, requires exactly 2 blue gems. Picture http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8...trinketlp8.jpg

Edit:
Wowhead lists it as 15% proc rate, 6s duration of the buff.
Mystical Skyfire Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft
Looks very odd to me, since the huge amount of 46s and 47s reprocs indicated a vastly higher proc chance. More headache for tomorrow.

Last edited by Roywyn : 10/12/07 at 5:32 PM.

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Old 10/12/07, 5:13 PM   #3102
Aldric
Huzzah for Anime
 
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Human Mage
 
Dark Iron
Originally Posted by Cardynal View Post
how would I go about adding this new gem (12crit/3% crit dmg) to the spreadsheet?

(nvm, I just added 12 crit to the RED...and my version still works for spells. )

It's only a 10dps loss when using the new caster meta over the current version of the MSD

If the MSD is a 45 second cooldown...and if the proc rate went up to 33%...then you would cast 18 fireballs per 1 proc...assuming no passive haste. This gives it basically a passive haste rating of 15.26 when using fire. This actually scales negativly with passive haste.

I'm seeing a 23dps gain when using the new caster meta gem (12crit/3%crit dmg) over the New MSD for deep fire.
Moving my response on the same issue from Vontre's thread over to this one to help keep things on the right topic:

I'm not sure how I feel about this way of determining the value of the new MSD (at least this guess on the new MSD) vs the new meta. First of all you're figuring the proc haste as 50% haste on next cast. It should be 100% haste for an increase of 50% cast time.


The new meta is pretty easy to calculate, average damage can be computed as

1.1ck + k = avg

for a fireball with ignite, where c is your crit percentage, and k your average fireball hit. The meta modifies this to

1.142ck + 1.01133k

using the same c and k as above (ie don't count the +12 crit rating in c)

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Old 10/12/07, 6:56 PM   #3103
alvinrod
Piston Honda
 
Undead Mage
 
Dark Iron
Originally Posted by Lhivera View Post
Has anyone had a chance to determine the base absorption reduction and new scaling coefficients on Ice Barrier and the wards?
I ran a few tests on the PTR and live. The base absorb for IB on the PTR is 1075 (it's 1175 currently) and it receives 30% of your spell damage (compared to 10% currently).

This means that for mages with more than 500 spell damage, the change is a buff.

I haven't tested the ward spells, but they're probably similar.

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Old 10/25/07, 4:31 AM   #3104
Selun
Von Kaiser
 
Human Mage
 
Nagrand (EU)
Hi, I'm new to this forum but I've read almost all replys in this thread and the arcane thread.
I'm 61/0/0 and I'm constantly keeping myself in top 3 on dmg meters and better than my mage guildies and I'd like to know more about PTR and incoming changes that ppl have tested and my attention is turned on the +33% of +healing transfered as spelldmg in order to compensate the focusing on +spelldmg rather than a single type of magic and that is because simply there aren't items to be able to do that as a caster. Another thing I'd like to know is if that expertise they introduce will affect spells as well or is just for skills?
And the last thing if ppl who know better than me would like to throw an eye on my profile and recommend some changes. I'm running with illidari mark and that will be replaced by the crusade trink but the faire is not ready yet.
(I'm after TLC, boots on lurker, blade on gruul or prince, offhand on nightbane)
We've done kara, gruul, lurker and some tries on morogrim, in TK we did 2 tries on void reaver and that is the end of my pve experience.

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Old 10/25/07, 5:20 AM   #3105
Plankel
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Mage
 
Scarshield Legion (EU)
Originally Posted by Selun View Post
Hi, I'm new to this forum but I've read almost all replys in this thread and the arcane thread. I'm 61/0/0 and I'm constantly keeping myself in top 3 on dmg meters and better than my mage guildies
hi, that is quite impressive, that must have taken you hours. well at least it means you know everything already and don't have a reason to post do you? Know that people on this forum generally frown up on posts like this. Asking them to chew up information you could have easily gotten yourself is not a good way to make friends.

Originally Posted by Selun View Post
and I'd like to know more about PTR and incoming changes that ppl have tested
try reading mage theorycrafting after 2.3

Originally Posted by Selun View Post
and my attention is turned on the +33% of +healing transfered as spelldmg in order to compensate the focusing on +spelldmg rather than a single type of magic and that is because simply there aren't items to be able to do that as a caster.
What? I am not sure I get you here, but I think you want to use healing gear for the +dmg on it. Pure spelldamage gear will still be better then healing gear, unless you are using shitty blues and somehow have acces to t6 healing gear.

Originally Posted by Selun View Post
Another thing I'd like to know is if that expertise they introduce will affect spells as well or is just for skills?
Do you even know what expertise does? I highly doubt it. Try finding that first and it will answer your question for you. search is your friend

Originally Posted by Selun View Post
And the last thing if ppl who know better than me would like to throw an eye on my profile and recommend some changes. I'm running with illidari mark and that will be replaced by the crusade trink but the faire is not ready yet.
(I'm after TLC, boots on lurker, blade on gruul or prince, offhand on nightbane)
We've done kara, gruul, lurker and some tries on morogrim, in TK we did 2 tries on void reaver and that is the end of my pve experience.
Your in luck I ain't got nothing else to do right now:
- You clearly missed the entire point about MSD, else you would use a hat with a metagem slot while you still can.
- 8 spirit gem? 4 int 2 mana? worst gems ever
- you have tailoring, yet no spellfire/spellstrike gear?

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Old 10/25/07, 5:36 AM   #3106
Shalkis
Glass Joe
 
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Troll Mage
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
Originally Posted by Selun View Post
Hi, I'm new to this forum but I've read almost all replys in this thread and the arcane thread.
I'm 61/0/0 and I'm constantly keeping myself in top 3 on dmg meters and better than my mage guildies and I'd like to know more about PTR and incoming changes that ppl have tested and my attention is turned on the +33% of +healing transfered as spelldmg in order to compensate the focusing on +spelldmg rather than a single type of magic and that is because simply there aren't items to be able to do that as a caster.
What exactly do you mean by that? That you'd like to get pure +spell damage instead of +spell damage and healing? Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. Only items that have pure +healing now will gain this new stat. If an old item has +300 healing now, it'll have +300 healing and +100 spelldamage at 2.3. For a mage, the added spelldamage is a non-issue, because there will still be a comparable item that has +200 spell damage and healing. You'd pick the latter item now, and you'll pick the latter item at 2.3 as well. It's a non-issue to mages.

If anything, you'll indirectly benefit from the change, although it's designed for healers. Currently, healers have to maintain a separate spelldamage set to be able to kill anything on their own. And in some cases, they'll end up competing for the same items as you. At 2.3 that'll be a thing of the past. Since their pure healing sets gain a decent amount of spell damage, they don't have to "steal" caster dps loot. That leads to less loot drama.

Another thing I'd like to know is if that expertise they introduce will affect spells as well or is just for skills?
It's just for skills.
And the last thing if ppl who know better than me would like to throw an eye on my profile and recommend some changes. I'm running with illidari mark and that will be replaced by the crusade trink but the faire is not ready yet.
(I'm after TLC, boots on lurker, blade on gruul or prince, offhand on nightbane)
We've done kara, gruul, lurker and some tries on morogrim, in TK we did 2 tries on void reaver and that is the end of my pve experience.
Your shoulderpads are subpar compared to the rest of your gear. You'd even get an upgrade from non-heroic Black Morass. But since you have access to Gruul, try to pick up the Aldor shoulders from Maulgar as a stopgap. Or tough it out until Void Reaver dies or get lucky with trash mobs at the Eye. I'd also consider crafting Bracers of Havok and some Spellfire if you can afford it.

And frankly I'm a bit puzzled by your enchant and gem choices. Many Arcane mages forsake self-sufficiency altogether and befriend a shadow priest. This would allow you to replace all those +intellect, +mp5 and +spirit gems with something worthwhile. Personally, I prefer the hybrid rare-quality (or better, if you get a nice drop from Heroics) gems that give spelldamage and spell crit/stamina/mp5). In addition, switch +12 int on bracers to +15 spelldamage and +5 all resistances on cloak to -2% threat. Finally, get your rings enchanted. you can purchase the recipe from the Keepers of Time.

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Old 10/25/07, 6:20 AM   #3107
Nickolina
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Stormreaver (EU)
I've been trying to get my head around the proposed MSD change in 2.3, and as an Arcane Missile spam jockey i'm trying to get my head around the maths. Can we assume that over a 50 second spam spree you will see 2 procs.. One roughly at the start of an encounter and the second roughly 45-50 seconds after the first proc. Once the encounter is underway you will see regular procs every 50 secs or so. So essentially at the start you get a nice quick dps boost, and then regularly every 45-50 secs.

For me, my spell damage etc and so on I tend to crit for 1700 on average per pulse and about 1000 or so none crit. With 30-33% crit chance I generally crit 2 out of 5 pulses of an Arcane Missile.

Now this is the bit I'm trying to get my head around.. and since Maths is not my strong point.. That's roughly an extra 3500 damage due to the spell haste effect every 45-50 secs.

If I was to break down that into crit / none crit damage spamming Arcane Missiles over the same period of time.. I'll score approx 14000 extra crit damage over a period of 50 seconds. If I then take 3% of that critical damage over that period of time with the new extra crit damage gem I seem to only get 420 extra damage. Am I missing something?

Even with the changes in 2.3, I still seem to end up doing far more damage with the MSD

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Old 10/25/07, 6:25 AM   #3108
Pintofbrew
Now with Karate Grip! (TM)
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Frostwhisper (EU)
Selun:

The above posters are right. No crafted gear, sloppy gemming, no meta and bad chants. You don't need to come to EJ to realise that.

As for having read the whole post, a gargantuan task for even the craziest of us, it's doubtable since you missed the whole MSD issue, which has proven recently enough to make most of the arcane mage comunity to grudgingly admit that fire is back in vogue.

Lastly, if you're asking for advice and not, in fact, posting TBC Mage Theorycrafting, you should be asking for it in http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16781-mage_help_me_please/ and not clogging up this forum.

nickolina:
You're over-simplifying. calling "noncrit dmg x" and "crit dmg y" and then using those values in it's self is inducing more inaccuracy and errors than will be covered by subtle changes like metas. Depending on where you got your dmg samples you could be leading yourself up the garden path; say your damage meter displays average damage noncrit = 1000, does that mean with or without raidbuffs? with a shaman in the grp? with misery and CoE on? which flask/elixir? which food? Those reasons mean that if we want accuracy in our calculations we can't afford to say "crit size * crit rate + noncrit size * noncrit rate = ave dmg". You need to get down to more detailed calculations, Vontre's will help you on this.

Last edited by Pintofbrew : 10/25/07 at 6:41 AM.

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Old 10/25/07, 7:31 AM   #3109
Nickolina
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Stormreaver (EU)
I'm keeping things simple, a bit like a GCSE question. Those numbers are rounded up/down from my average hits and crits per pulse. I'm trying to gain an overall overview of the mechanics of the meta when spamming Arcane Missiles in a normalised environment. I will have been potted using my standard consumables etc etc, but for the purpose of this example i'm keeping things simple.

if x = average none crit, and y = average crit and z = crit damage (y-x)

The new meta is 3% of your crit damage. I'm also going to ignore the passive half a crit increase and just look at the 3% additional crit damage.

x = 1000 (none crit pulse)
y = 1700 (pulsing crit)
z = 700 (total crit damage)

3% of 700 seems to small.. it's an increase of 21 damage per crit, or for me with a 30% crit chance 42 extra damage using these esitimated numbers.

Over a period of 50 seconds i'd be hoping to add approx 420 additional damage (estimate).. Or is this new meta gem taking 3% of the total spell damage and not just the crit component?

I'm going over this in my mind, and i still can't see how the new meta gem can come anywhere close to the dps return of the spell haste.

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Old 10/25/07, 8:04 AM   #3110
Pintofbrew
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You seem to have a flaw in the workings of your crit mechanic.

For arcane spec crit is 1.75*base spell. So for noncrit 1000 a crit is 1750. It is not the case that the "crit" is 750 of this, the whole thing is a crit. With that in mind, just as Ignite is 40% of the total damage size, and not the total - base dmg, the 3% buff from the meta will in fact be 52.5 dmg. (0.03 * 1750).

Despite these, I still maintain: You are over-simplifying and inducing more error than you are calculating. You will not get meaningful results to that degree of accuracy and even if you do it'll be a fluke.

Note, the Chaos meta will also affect TLC lightning bolts (willing to be proven otherwise).

Also: Given AM spam is pretty much dead compared to the old 3*AB,AM,Sc rotation in 2xT5this is pretty much a moot point: MSD is unreliable in this rotation as it borgs the rotation and will equally likely proc before a scorch or AB anyhow, making most of it's effect worthless.

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Old 10/25/07, 10:02 AM   #3111
Nickolina
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Stormreaver (EU)
Thanks for clarification about the meta. I wanted to understand the basic concepts before looking into extreme circumstances and 'what ifs scenarios'. That's why i've been using these averages. It's more of an estimation excercise. I wish I had more time at work

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Old 10/25/07, 11:03 AM   #3112
Selun
Von Kaiser
 
Human Mage
 
Nagrand (EU)
maybe ppl understood me wrong but that is what i was looking for, opinions about my gemming and not using the spellfire set and spellstrike even though i have both... as for shoulders i know i just never seen the t4 ones droping at maulguar.

about MSD (i've read about it on other forums too) and my conclusion is that is best for AM spam (destroying rotations though) and as i worked my way with arcane i think is less dmg and mana efficiency. i never have problems with threat (ofc if i go in a heroic and the tank is bad i get aggro if i'm not holding back, but with tanks from my guild threat was never an issue) and that enchant with resist i use is the best after -2% threat, since a full resist will give some mana back.

i've read about expertise and seen that is used in order to improve let's say sword skill even more than the 350 limit that is atm and gain a better advantage not only reducing chance to miss and my question was if that expertise will be used in schools of magic since u have them listed as skills as well, thus gaining an advantage from skills and not having to stack that much +hit...

plankel i'm sry i made u mad, i never wanted to offend anyone, i just wanted some ppl opinions and thx for your time. i asked about the healing transfered as spelldmg not because i didnt know about healing items having 1/3 of their +heal also as spelldmg i asked about it because i've seen it on wow forums on a sticky thread about changes and i think i got it wrong... clearly ppl here have much more knowledge about it, thx for clarifying it.

and about those gems why isnt the mana regen and big mana pool better than some more +spelldmg (clearly not only int and spirit instead of spelldmg, but sacrificing little +spelldmg for big int and spirit gains)? i mean i'm not using spellfire set since i will just get more spelldmg but i wont be able to keep it even on a 4-5 min fight without int and spirit gems... and when i have spriest in group i just can AB spam for about 3minutes before i go oom so i usually fight like this, first i start using rotations (3xAB, 1xAM, 1xscorch) then after 1 min i'm almost at full mana (running with mage armor) when i use 1 of the mana gems and after i get a proc from the robe i pop AP and start AB spam and keep it even after AP is gone until i get at about 4-5k mana (i have almost 14k raidbuffed) then stay at rotations and thus gaining mana because the spriest pumps dmg (and i'm using CC on AM even if it breaks the rotatin since i'm after gaining mana) and when i get to about 7-8k mana i eat another mana gem and then again start spamming till i'm at 1k mana left and then i evo with spirit weapons and wand and almost get at 12k mana (usualy i dont get to use evocation if the fight is less than 4-5 minutes).
my point is i think blizz intended arcane mages to be focused on huge amounts of mana and mana regen (buffing the arcane meditation is justyfing my thinking on that) and be able to sustain it for very high amonts of time regardless of shadowpriests, JoW and any other mana regen buffs/debuffs other characters have, in this way an arcane mage should find a balance between mana regen and spelldmg having in mind the buffs/debuffs other ppl can help him with...

i'm rather new but i think i've understood what wws is and in the near future i'll give some feedback to backup my thinking on this.

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Old 10/25/07, 11:48 AM   #3113
Plankel
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Mage
 
Scarshield Legion (EU)
i've read about expertise and seen that is used in order to improve let's say sword skill even more than the 350 limit that is atm and gain a better advantage not only reducing chance to miss and my question was if that expertise will be used in schools of magic since u have them listed as skills as well, thus gaining an advantage from skills and not having to stack that much +hit...
No, what you are talking about is weaponskill. Weaponskill on items is replaced in 2.3 by expertise. Expertise reduces the chance an opponent dodges/parries. Neither weaponskill nor expertise have anything to do with spells and never had. Schools of spell are indeed listed as skills, but they don't have point values with like weaponskills (for example, the 282/350 staff skill you have).

plankel i'm sry i made u mad,
I am not mad, just slightly annoyed. Typing out your words is a rule on this forum though and not doing so can get you banned. So please don't use abbrevations like u, i or sry

About your mana problems. Try using super mana potions and gems everytime the cooldown is up. If you insist on AB spamming you will always run out of mana on fights longer then 5 minutes though (and that is basically every fight between early kara and mount Hyjal), no matter how much int and spirit you stack. So it is better to go for +dmg and dont spam AB as much.

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Old 10/25/07, 12:25 PM   #3114
Selun
Von Kaiser
 
Human Mage
 
Nagrand (EU)
About the use of potions and other consumables in order to drop the mana regen and stack more spelldmg would make me use less AB spam so I think that is a downfall on dps because you have to stay on rotations more and on a fight where you need to move around (most of the fights in BC content are focusing on that part from what I've understood reading sites with boss guides and from what I've played) you just destroy your rotations and this is leading to lower dps than if you had int and spi stacked instead of some spelldmg isn't that right? I ask about his because I don't have the time to see it myself (I mean I was using it and I was doing less damage than using the setup I have now) and since none tried it means it's an unexplored part so maybe is a good or bad, that is the main reason people are theorycrafting, and because I can work with it and do good damage it may work until or after some point. (In Vontre's Spreadsheet I plugged in my numbers and modified the spirit to 350 and see what happens the result on rotations was 35 minutes with shadowpriest)


Yes, I'm sorry but I'm not used with english use of capital letter in the middle of a sentence, but this is not an excuse is just a motivation.

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Old 10/25/07, 2:50 PM   #3115
Rouncer
Deeper Shade of Blue
 
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Originally Posted by Pintofbrew View Post

Also: Given AM spam is pretty much dead compared to the old 3*AB,AM,Sc rotation in 2xT5this is pretty much a moot point: MSD is unreliable in this rotation as it borgs the rotation and will equally likely proc before a scorch or AB anyhow, making most of it's effect worthless.
How dead will the Meta really be for those roatations though?

I've been thinking about this a bit lately, since the gem should proc within 1-2 rotations and since it should be easy to code a mod (or find since I bet there are some already out there) to track the 45 second cooldown all you would do is stick to the rotation till the Gem is up and then switch to AM spam and after it procs and is used then go back to the rotation.

Sure you would lose a 1.5s AB at 2.5s cost but you would still be gaining a lot of dps from the AM that uses up the proc. Doubt it is anywhere near enough to offset what Fire will be outputting with either of the Metas though.

It's too bad that the rotation is so dependant on 2T5. If that set bonus was incorporated into the spell then the rotation would still work at the 4T6 level and would work pretty well since you would be spamming AM when the MSD was off cooldown and using the rotation when it was on cooldown and just straight spamming AB during the execute phase of a fight if you have the mana.



This probably isn't the place for it so ignore what comes after this if you aren't interested in theorizing how they could fix the Arcane Tree so that it would function without being completely reliant on 2T5 and the current MSD to be at all viable.


Here's a thought to fix the Arcane Tree and make it a truly self-sufficient dps option on it's own. Without altering the current feel of the tree as one that makes the most use of proc effects.

1. Increase the debuff duration of AB to 11 seconds which would allow 2 AMs to occur between the ABs. So that the rotation would be ABx3 AMx2 ABx3 for max sustainable dps and then fewer ABs in the rotation when mana is more of a concern.

2. Change the AB debuff to also increase the damage done by that mage with Arcane Spells. 10% more damage with Arcane Spells while active should be enough to equalize the damage and then just change the 2T5 to just give 10% more damage with AB for 10% more mana so that the set bonus would still work and wouldn't cause an increase in overall dps but the rotations would be a bit less reliant upon it.

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Old 10/26/07, 5:20 AM   #3116
Pintofbrew
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Frostwhisper (EU)
Rounced:

Firstly on the meta, while I agree that you can code a CD counter, it's a case of "what's the point". Elsewhere on these forums evidence was given that MSD represents a higher gain than Chaotic but it was in the region of 1%. We know that AM spam is less DPS than AB spam, so forcing yourself to mash AM two, three, four times in succession will (a) blow your double-dipping first AB next rotation (b) force you to use a lower DPS spell to gain the benefit of a meta which *most likely* will proc. What if you end up casting five AMs to get it to proc? Was it that much worth it?

As for arcane tree fixes, I'd beg to differ with your first one: Rather, REDUCE AB debuff to 6 sec, meaning you can take out the piddly scorch (which also has huge miss rate), now meaning the rotation size is smaller, and the percentage of it that is AB is bigger. This would tie in perfectly with 2.3 stopcasting fix. I haven't done "what if" scenarios on DPS of "if debuff was 11sec" to back this of course, but minimising the time you have to cast spells that aren't AB seems the way to go in my mind.


Manly did suggest something interesting: Increase Empowered Missiles to 25/50/70% coef. Personally I think that's a recipe for WotLC disaster, I'm in little doubt that by lvl 80 blues we'll all be in 1700spelldmg and that scale of increase will make this large a change humongous. I'd say keep it as it is, scaling is decent, just base AM starts too low. So I'd say last rank AM, add another 100-120dmg to it, that should do the trick.

I like your second change too. It's a fruity idea; Too specific though, in keeping with the "arcane loves every tree" mentality of Mind Mastery I'd like to propose instead: Make AB debuff increase all damage done by 1/2/3% or 2/4/6%, interestingly forcing other specs to spec into 13 arcane to weave some blasts in when they need the pew the most.

T5 set bonus is excessive. I think they thought of it on a silent night when they were wondering "why isn't anyone using this damn BC spell" not realising how game-altering it was. As we see with MSD no one item should ever be the crux of any spec (yes much-awaited TLC nerf, I'm looking at you.) and it's a damn waste that arcane in these last months has been the gimmick-monkey of the game.

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Old 10/26/07, 10:04 AM   #3117
Roywyn
Bald Bull
 
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Roywyn
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Pintofbrew View Post
Manly did suggest something interesting: Increase Empowered Missiles to 25/50/70% coef. Personally I think that's a recipe for WotLC disaster, I'm in little doubt that by lvl 80 blues we'll all be in 1700spelldmg and that scale of increase will make this large a change humongous. I'd say keep it as it is, scaling is decent, just base AM starts too low. So I'd say last rank AM, add another 100-120dmg to it, that should do the trick.
Pintofbrew - The issue is exactly the scaling on arcane spells. Or rather, the lack of it.
The arcane tree starts with mana and utility talents, you don't see real DPS talents before spending 25 points into it (well, +hit is one, but it's getting really hard not to cap even without an Elemental Shaman).

The. Arcane. Tree. Lacks. Damage. Talents. To. Be. Able. To. Compete.
Arcane. Spell. Damage. Scaling. Is. Junk.


If we just take non-gimmick gear, it looks as follows:

Specced Fireball
115% dmg over 3s (38.3%/sec), +3% hit, +12% crit (Combustion adds ~3%), +30% damage (10% FiPo, 3% PWF, 15% imp. scorch; multiplicative), 210% crit damage.
Molten Fury.

Speeced Arcane Missiles
188% dmg over 5s (37.6%/sec), +10% hit, +10% crit (AInst+2*APot+AMind), +3% damage, +Int/4 spell damage (~10% more damage), 175% crit damage.
Arcane Power/APPoMPyro.

Arcane Mind is decent, but it's scaling rather slowly because +spell damage is still our strongest progression stat. Molten Fury and APPoMPyro are comparable for damage.

If you just look at the numbers, arcane needs at least another 10% scaling talent to be able to compete. It would have to be more, since the 10% damage from Arcane Mind does not scale with +damage.
Base damage has become less and less important for spells. For talented AM, the volley does ~1300 base damage and +damage adds ~2900 to it.
Adding more base damage doesn't address the issue, namely that fire just scales inherently better.

+25/50/75% on Empowered Arcane Missiles would bring it to 218%/5sec, or 43.6%/sec. 13% better than Fireball. It would be a start, but now enough to make up for the drawbacks.

Using Vontre's Sheet with optimised gear, no meta gem, 2.3 mechanics:
Fireball - 1809 DPS
AM spam - 1540 DPS (with TLC/AToI)
AM* spam - 1483 DPS without gimmicks (with DM:Crusade/Gul'dan)
AM Mk. IIa - 1701 DPS with +75% from 3/3 Empowered Arcane Missiles (with TLC/AToI)
AM Mk. IIb - 1748 DPS with 600 more base damage (120 per tick) (with TLC/AToI)

AB spam then is about 1731 DPS, 2031 DPS with T5 Leggings/Shoulders swapped in.
Talk about meaningless unless you stick to T5. And even then, the required amount of AB burn time in rotations to compete with fire is way too high and not sustainable.


How was gear at Naxxramas levels? +500 spell damage, +700 fully buffed? That has doubled by now.
Let's just boldly assume another +1k spell damage, +400 intellect (=+100 from arcane mind) at level 80 and look what happens:
Fireball spam is at 2650 DPS.
AM spam is at 2254 DPS. AM with +75% empowered is at 2529 DPS, AM with +150 base (let it scale from +120 to +150 at 80) is at 2565 DPS.
That's all with the gimmick AToI/TLC trinkets. Without, it would be 2171 DPS.
AB spam would be at 2449 DPS without T5, and 2892 DPS with T5.

With any of the suggested changes, it wouldn't be as bad as I had feared.
But still, without any changes, the lack of scaling make arcane spells a pretty poor choice.

Edit: Added numbers without AToI/TLC. Bold emphasis of the essential part. *cough*

Last edited by Roywyn : 10/26/07 at 1:35 PM.

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Old 10/26/07, 10:21 AM   #3118
Pintofbrew
Now with Karate Grip! (TM)
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Frostwhisper (EU)
Roywyn: Hadn't realised the scaling was that bad to be honest. Only nit-picking I can aim at your work is I doubt we'll gain 400int by lvl 80, I'd be more inclined to call it 250, but even so this is not adressing the issue: Arcane scales badly.

We can rest our hopes (and dreams?) in WotLC talents that should adress the arcane scaling problem.

Now till then if only someone could come up to bat and prove/disprove this bizzare theory that bosses only need 127hit for frost spec...

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Old 10/26/07, 11:51 AM   #3119
manly
Soda Popinski
 
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Troll Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
I don't think you guys stress enough just how bad arcane scaling is. The only reason AM is good right now is MSD+ashtongue+TLC. You also need trinkets giving you far above 100 dps each (which is arguably in need of a nerf - yes cooldown on TLC). AM spam -itself- is the worst shit you can possibly imagine (for lack of better word). 175% crits are only acceptable because of TLC which bring it closer to 200% and more in-line with every other spec and class crit values (although, sadly, still below).

Now if you think forward, and plan on MSD/ashtongue/TLC being obsoleted, you need a truckload of fixing arcane scaling to make it compete with firespec. I proposed 25/50/75 considering 13% cos being common and ashtongue/TLC still being up there in terms of DPS. Now if we speak lvl-80, 25/50/75 won't be enough unless they release some new retarded trinkets/metagem. 25/50/75 would bring AM spam still below firespec, but close enough that you would honestly spec arcane and not curse at blizzard if you know you're not getting coe.

If we're talking lvl-80 scaling, arcane missiles needs almost a full revamp. Even with spellhaste being commonplace. 200% crits total would barely make up for lack of TLC. Then you need some way to give an extra 7%-ish haste to make up for ashtongue. And then, even with all that, and even with 25/50/75, AM is still considerably behind firespec. I think the proper direction would be to give even worse DPM to AM to justify its low threat an uninterruptibility. I'd say, all things considered, that here is what would be needed considering all the things I mentioned above:

200% AM crits total (ie: 'spell power' +50%/100% - this could make 33/28 compete as well btw)
new talent: 'increase AM casting speed' (2 pts) (req. 3pts imp. missiles) reduces AM casting time by 10% / 20%.

and possibly imp. missiles being 25/50/75. Although that would depends on new released gear.

<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS.
Very Manly Staff

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Old 10/27/07, 12:21 AM   #3120
Rouncer
Deeper Shade of Blue
 
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Originally Posted by Pintofbrew View Post
Rounced:


As for arcane tree fixes, I'd beg to differ with your first one: Rather, REDUCE AB debuff to 6 sec, meaning you can take out the piddly scorch (which also has huge miss rate), now meaning the rotation size is smaller, and the percentage of it that is AB is bigger. This would tie in perfectly with 2.3 stopcasting fix. I haven't done "what if" scenarios on DPS of "if debuff was 11sec" to back this of course, but minimising the time you have to cast spells that aren't AB seems the way to go in my mind.

There was one other reason why I suggested raising the debuff limit to 11 seconds, instead of reducing it to 6 seconds. The 4T6 set bonus would be absolute crap for Deep Arcane mages if there was only 1 AM in between all of the ABs. That was one of the other rationales for going to 11 seconds. Using 2 AMs makes it much more of a significant portion of the rotation which helps to ensure that it is worth losing the 2T5 bonus if you are able to use the 4T6 one. It was also why I suggested having the debuff give 10% more damage to Arcane spell and reducing the 2T5 bonus to 10%. At 5% from AB debuff and 15% on the 2T5 the 2T5 set bonus was far better the 4T6 bonus. At 10%/10% that changed and 4T6 bonus generated enough additional damage for AM that the bonuses scaled more like how they should.

When I worked out the dps comparison for my suggested changes, 4T6 was about 30dps higher then 2T5 using a 3xAB 2AM rotation if the debuff was 11 seconds and gave 10% additional Arcane damage and the players other stats were the exact same (only difference being the set bonues). That difference will also become more significant when you take into account T6's increased stats. The difference is smaller then I would have liked but it was enough of one to promote proper scaling.

No mage should be tied to any set bonus to the point where the next tier of gear isn't an actual upgrade.

One other change they should make if they really want to keep the Arcane Tree viable as a stand alone tree would be to incorporate Arcane Blast into the Improved Arcane Missile talent so that it would also no longer be affected by spell push-backif you placed the 5 points in the talent, or maybe have it gain 10% pushback resistence per point so that it would be less vulnerable to push back but at the same time wouldn't just have mages spamming it all the time in PvP.

Originally Posted by manly View Post
200% AM crits total (ie: 'spell power' +50%/100% - this could make 33/28 compete as well btw)
Manly, you didn't think that one through enough cause it simply won't work. There is no way that can go live, just won't happen.

You forgot one thing. AP + PoM + Pyro

If Crits were 200% from spellpower just think of the kind of damage that would do in PvP. Followed up with a Fireblast and including the ignite you would be two-shotting people with 13-14k health (just did the napkin math and including the ignites you are talking about 13.5k damage in 3 seconds). Pretty sure that is exactly the opposite of where Blizzard is trying to go with all the PvP changes and the increased stamina and all that.

I thought about bringing 100% crit bonus to the Arcane Tree through Spellpower but I was thinking 50% for all other spells and 100% for Arcane. However that doesn't do anything to help promote the rotations, which Blizzard seems to have a hardon over, and would also have SEVERE issues with the current 2T5 set bonus (not sure Blizzard wants mages critting for 6.6k damage off a 1.5 second cast time spell).

Someone else replyed to my suggestion saying that it was roughly a 5-6% increase at a 30% crit rate which is why I started thinking about adding that percentage of damage back in with the AB debuff. Playing with the numbers showed 5% as not being sufficient to truly balance the tree and the set bonuses but 10% worked out really well and should continue to work out well all the way up to the next expansion and it does it without changing Arcane's PvP viability in the slightest since AB is not a very easy spell to utilize fully in PvP.

Last edited by Rouncer : 10/27/07 at 12:46 AM.

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Old 10/27/07, 2:23 AM   #3121
Muphrid
Don Flamenco
 
Gnome Mage
 
Llane
It's the context of the AP-PoM-Pyro, as well as the general uselessness of Pyroblast in anything other than niche situations, that makes me think Pyroblast is more than due an adjustment.

Cut the damage, cast time, duration, and mana cost by an appropriate factor (say, for the sake of argument, a factor of 3). 2 seconds is actually a pretty decent casting time: it's not so short as to lose scaling through haste (due to the GCD cap), not so long as to be unusable in PvP. Pyroblast was already a fair way to conserve mana, just unbearably long to cast. Thus, I could envision both PvE and PvP applications for this modified spell.

And this, of course, would take away the PoM-Pyro gimmick and open the door to proper PvP adjustments for arcane and fire specs.

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Old 10/27/07, 5:40 AM   #3122
Vhad
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Silvermoon (EU)
What would help the arcane tree a long way would be some synergy as well, frost and fire mages have their vulnerabilities and even though they only realistically gets applied to work for mages they are still there. I see no reason why Arcane couldn't have one as well, one that brought synergy with moonkins and elemental shamans maybe, or just one of the two. Numbers are for balance issues, but something 4/8/12/16/20% increased arcane/nature dmg built in to AM would go a long way to keep the spec alive I would think.

What!?

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Old 10/27/07, 8:34 AM   #3123
Rouncer
Deeper Shade of Blue
 
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Originally Posted by Vhad View Post
What would help the arcane tree a long way would be some synergy as well, frost and fire mages have their vulnerabilities and even though they only realistically gets applied to work for mages they are still there. I see no reason why Arcane couldn't have one as well, one that brought synergy with moonkins and elemental shamans maybe, or just one of the two. Numbers are for balance issues, but something 4/8/12/16/20% increased arcane/nature dmg built in to AM would go a long way to keep the spec alive I would think.

Everyone loves the notion of debuffs and class synergies but I'm not sold on that as a fix for the Arcane Tree.

40 debuff slots thats all we get. 40 seemed like a lot when they implemented the increase but once again we are pushing against that limit and things are starting to get knocked off.

Fire uses 3 for the first fire mage and 2 for each additional. Frost uses 1 (for bosses since they are immune to the chill). Arcane uses none. That's actually a very big advantage for the Arcane Tree.

I completely agree with Manly that something needs to be done about CoE. About 6-7 months ago I wrote a suggestion for Blizzard to just remove the damage increasing aspects of CoS and CoE or to just combine them into one Curse of Magic since I saw the writing on the wall for CoE as being viable as there were fewer mages present per raid. But since that hasn't occured yet I really think the easiest fix is just to keep Arcane's dps competitive with everyone else and with the other mage specs.

Changing the Arcane Blast debuff to last 11 seconds and to give a 10% boost to Arcane damage while active (removing 10% from 2T5 simultaneously) would do just that without disturbing the current "balance" of any of the other classes or specs.

Originally Posted by Muphrid View Post
It's the context of the AP-PoM-Pyro, as well as the general uselessness of Pyroblast in anything other than niche situations, that makes me think Pyroblast is more than due an adjustment.

Cut the damage, cast time, duration, and mana cost by an appropriate factor (say, for the sake of argument, a factor of 3). 2 seconds is actually a pretty decent casting time: it's not so short as to lose scaling through haste (due to the GCD cap), not so long as to be unusable in PvP. Pyroblast was already a fair way to conserve mana, just unbearably long to cast. Thus, I could envision both PvE and PvP applications for this modified spell.

And this, of course, would take away the PoM-Pyro gimmick and open the door to proper PvP adjustments for arcane and fire specs.

I agree that Pyroblast should be reworked into a staple spell of the fire tree but even if they did that changing Spellpower to give 100% crit bonus is still going to be overpowered since it would synergize with Shards and Ignite and give 250% crits to the frost tree and 280% crits to fire.

Looking at my character screen if Spellpower was 100% crit bonus my AP + PoM + Pyro + Fireblast combo would do 14815 damage changing that combo to using Fireball instead would drop it down to 12725. Which still sounds like more damage then I think Blizzard wants us to be able to do in 3 seconds.

Also think about what the Frostbolt + Ice Lance shattered combo would look like from a 40/0/21 mage if Spellpower gave 100% crit bonus.

Last edited by Rouncer : 10/27/07 at 8:57 AM.

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Old 10/27/07, 9:55 AM   #3124
Vhad
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Silvermoon (EU)
Then make Spell Power only work for Arcane spells, or have it capped at the other trees at what it is now and continue the crit intensity for arcane.

As for the debuff discussion, that's a guild issue and how to manage debuffs shouldn't mean such a synergy couldn't work.

The bottom line is unchanged however, arcane needs alot of loving as soon as possible.

What!?

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Old 10/27/07, 10:05 AM   #3125
diskape
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Zenedar (EU)
EDIT.

Last edited by diskape : 11/23/07 at 11:43 PM.

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