Can anyone provide screenshots of top rank fireball, Dragon's breath and fireblast straight from a trainer in the beta?
According to a friend of mine who's in the beta, dragon's breath has like 900 topdamage and fireblast around 1100, contradicting both Thottbots beta page and the official calculator.
Can anyone provide screenshots of top rank fireball, Dragon's breath and fireblast straight from a trainer in the beta?
According to a friend of mine who's in the beta, dragon's breath has like 900 topdamage and fireblast around 1100, contradicting both Thottbots beta page and the official calculator.
Talents will change the tooltip amounts, I believe. Firepower + playing with fire would be 13% more damage, and 113% of 780 is roughly 900. It's possible your friend has already accounted for this, though.
I hear the paperdoll's mouseovers are now giving pet scaling info -- If a warlock mouses over spell power, for instance, it says, "your pet receives 35% of this". Could someone check for the scaling numbers for the water elemental -- stam, int, spell power, armor, resistance?
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
I hear the paperdoll's mouseovers are now giving pet scaling info -- If a warlock mouses over spell power, for instance, it says, "your pet receives 35% of this". Could someone check for the scaling numbers for the water elemental -- stam, int, spell power, armor, resistance?
I'm not seeing anything.
Originally Posted by arch
Can anyone provide screenshots of top rank fireball, Dragon's breath and fireblast straight from a trainer in the beta?
According to a friend of mine who's in the beta, dragon's breath has like 900 topdamage and fireblast around 1100, contradicting both Thottbots beta page and the official calculator.
while #2 is a yet to be seen need (gg hunters in PvP or a yet to be seen "hunter-like" boss?).
:'( no one remembers the DM (West) hunter boss that has aoe concussive shot and a psycho bear :(
Allow me to clarify. "Hunter-like raid boss". There is a similar hunter boss in a TBC 5 man, but again, these are 5 man runs.
Lhivera, I've seen alot of DPS/DPM numbers you've posted regarding the specific bolts (spamming). Have you done any numbers regarding cycling arcane blast and taking advantage of a 1.5 sec cast time at base mana cost factored in? For example, Arcane Blast 3 times, Frostbolt 3 times, then repeat? The arcane blast after the frost bolts can take advantage of the 1.5 cast time without the excessive mana cost because the Arcane Blast debuff wears off during the cast (you get the speed increase at beginning of cast, you pay the mana cost at the end).
Is this at all viable or has this been covered? Pretty sure I've read the entire thread and I don't recall any mention of this.
Have you done any numbers regarding cycling arcane blast and taking advantage of a 1.5 sec cast time at base mana cost factored in? For example, Arcane Blast 3 times, Frostbolt 3 times, then repeat? The arcane blast after the frost bolts can take advantage of the 1.5 cast time without the excessive mana cost because the Arcane Blast debuff wears off during the cast (you get the speed increase at beginning of cast, you pay the mana cost at the end).
Has anyone confirmed that that works? I know currently haste effects work even if they wear off during the cast, but this seems like a) it would be an interesting mechanic and b) would require skill and timing to pull off. And we all know that Blizzard has determined that mages should not be interesting or require skill to play (yes this could have been posted without the bitterness but I can't help it right now).
And if it works, has anyone used it and seen how well it works with real-realm casting lag?
a) it would be an interesting mechanic and b) would require skill and timing to pull off.
In regards to (a), I'm looking really hard for a reason to use arcane blast. This quirk of the spell may provide incentive enough to use it, but I haven't investigated it too much yet (was wondering if someone has already done it so I don't have to, lol). As far as (b) goes, eh, skill isn't a factor, but timing is. Instead of mindlessly spamming one key in tank/spank type fights, you spam AB 3x, then some chain of spells that takes about 7 seconds, then go back to ABx3 again. 3x (talented) frostbolts is 7.5 seconds, and the debuff is 8 seconds, so if timing is good that is theoretically possible.
Like I said, trying *really hard* to like arcane blast, but when it is at 3 debuffs and DPM goes to 2:1, that doesn't really cut it (unless you have a couple druids innervating you, lol). In all honesty, it feels like Arcane is the "tease" of TBC. It looks like a contender to be a main nuking tree, but is it really or does it fall short? The end tier fire talents look incredibly good and there has already been much discussion in this thread about just how good fire is compared to arcane/frost.
Someone on the mage forum did some naked/dressed testing on the elemental's stats for me; here are the results (along with my math). I'm not entirely satisfied with the resulting numbers. The damage number disagrees with the 31% someone said here that they got off the mouseover info on the character sheet. The stam and intellect scaling are just not very clean numbers. If anyone cared to repeat the tests (and check Armor and Resistance values while at it), I'd love to see the results:
Ok, quick rundown from testing.
With a lvl 60 human mage
Naked, the elemental has 1700 hp and 2126 mana
With 175 extra stam and 248 extra int, it has 2097 hp and 2447 mana
397 health / 175 stam = 2.27 health per stam. Which is a very odd number. I guess it's getting 22.7% of your stamina.
321 mana / 248 int = 1.29 mana per int, which is also a very odd number. That's about 8.6% of your intellect.
Naked, its bolts do 371-443 (2.5 second cast)
With 625 frost damage, I was able to get 551-616. I don't know what the actual range was, but after an hour of mostly waiting for its CD thats what I had
Damage coefficient: 2.5 / 3.5 = 0.714
Actual +damage the elemental uses: 176.5 / 0.714 = 247.10
Percentage of your +damage: 247.10 / 625 = 0.395 = 39.5%. It seems safe to assume that it's probably 40%, and was just off a bit because you weren't able to get an exact ranged on the dressed damage.
So, to sum up, it looks like this:
Stamina: 22.7% of your stamina. Intellect: 8.6% of your intellect. Damage: 40%
The stamina and intellect numbers bother me; none of the other pets are using such odd numbers. By any chance did you have any of the following:
- Stamina buff?
- Intellect buff?
- Other stat buffs, like Blessing of Kings or Gift of the Wild?
- +health or +mana enchants that don't alter your base stats, like +100 health or mana to chest?
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
I got the guy to do a little cleaner testing, making sure he was unbuffed for both naked and dressed testing:
Naked, zero buffs
- My intellect: 125
- My stamina: 45
- My mana: 2808
- My health: 1640
- Elemental's intellect: No pet details tab :(
- Elemental's stamina: As above
- Elemental's mana: 2081
- Elemental's health: 1700
+175 stam, +217 int, zero buffs
- My intellect: 342
- My stamina: 220
- My mana: 6063
- My health: 3390
- Elemental's intellect: Cant tell
- Elemental's stamina: Cant tell
- Elemental's mana: 2403
- Elemental's health: 2097
This stuff still doesn't make much sense. The mana works if you assume the elemental is gaining 10% of his gear intellect, rounded down, and then getting 7 extra mana for a fractional intellect point. I haven't figured out anything remotely clean for the stamina scaling yet. The fact that it's not gaining a multiple of 10, or even a multiple of 10 plus 5 for a fractional stam point, makes me think it's not the base stats scaling at all.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
I got the guy to do a little cleaner testing, making sure he was unbuffed for both naked and dressed testing:
Um, it looks very *very* close to getting 10% of +int from gear and 22.5% of +stamina from gear, which are simple enough numbers to work with. The only quibble is in the details of the rounding process. Depending which values they round in which order, before or after applying the various multipliers, that could easily swing it by a couple of points this way or that.
Could you get your friend to test it with 1/3 of his gear on, and again with 2/3 of it on? That gives you much better information than just the naked / full-gear comparison.
Um, it looks very *very* close to getting 10% of +int from gear and 22.5% of +stamina from gear, which are simple enough numbers to work with. The only quibble is in the details of the rounding process. Depending which values they round in which order, before or after applying the various multipliers, that could easily swing it by a couple of points this way or that.
Could you get your friend to test it with 1/3 of his gear on, and again with 2/3 of it on? That gives you much better information than just the naked / full-gear comparison.
True. I'm looking for a nice clean number, so fractions are bugging me, but you're right, it may be getting a fractional percentage, and rounding may be screwing with the results.
I've asked him to do one more with half his gear; I don't really know him, so I hate bugging him constantly. I'll have my own beta key...someday...when my guild's invites come out...and will test extensively then.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
I've asked him to do one more with half his gear; I don't really know him, so I hate bugging him constantly. I'll have my own beta key...someday...when my guild's invites come out...and will test extensively then.
I'll be more than willing to help out the next time you swing by your horde alts... provided you take your time getting here. It seems there's a delay and I can't get Paag transferred to the test realm until next week. :angry:
Yes, it does work. What is also "interesting" about the current Arcane Blast is that the debuff is a magic debuff. IE, instead of timing the cycle like I described previously, start casting a 3 stacked debuff and have a priest/pally remove the debuff during the cast time. Not particularly useful given the context, but the current magic debuff mechanic is pretty funny IMO. There are probably a few more ways to take advantage of the fact that the arcane blast debuff is only 8 seconds and magic, but they are all likely to revolve around timing (start cast as debuff falls off) or some way to manage those debuffs via removal.
So the mana gained per int seems to be fairly steady at about 1.49? The HP/Sta seems to be scaling down as my sta goes up?
This might be to keep the elementals hit points from going through the roof with all the extra sta on the new equipment?
Question: Do the stats change if you swap gear after the elemental is summoned? Or are they fixed at cast time?
What happens if you summon it while naked and then put your gear on - do the stats go up?
It would probably be excessive to have a macro to swap in stacks of +stat gear, summon the elemental, and then swap back to +damage gear - but if the elemental's stats are set at cast time, you know *someone* will try it :-)
A 41 point talent doesnt have to be 'the' talent you climb the tree for. In slow's case, its more a thing you get while up high in the arcane tree already, than something you set out to get from the start. Spell power, empowered arcane missiles, mind mastery, AP, POM, those are things you climb up there to get *if so inclined*, slow is just a sweetener.
The same argument is applied to many 41 point talents, the one that springs to mind is the shaman 41 point talent. Again, not something a shaman is going to be shouting from the rooftops over, but *better than a low tier talent in another tree*.
But... it isn't. I can't think of any reason why I'd take Slow over Blast Wave or Ice Block, or for that matter any <=21 point talent in fire or frost.
If a 21/31/41 point talent isn't what you "climb the tree for," then you don't take it. You'll see a lot of 40/x/x builds for the same reason Warlocks spec 30/x/x today. Slow is our Dark Pact.
This is pretty ridiculous. Slow is a much better and more versatile ability than blast wave, I don't know how you could even compare the two. I was trying to think of a well reasoned argument to demonstrate this quickly and effectively, but really what is there to say that isn't already obvious? Spammable ability that has a devastating impact on multiple classes, versus an aoe snare with some damage attached? There's no contest. Ice Block is debatable, but everyone knows that ice block is retardedly good ability that is only countered by its hideous cooldown (which can be cold-snapped...). Slow is a spammable spell.
Also, talent trees typically have a really good 5-point ability before their killer 1-point marker at the 20/30/40 mark. Shadow Mastery, Mind Mastery, Find Weakness, Combat Potency, etc. The reason you might skip a 41 point ability for a 21 point ability in another tree is versatility. Unstable Affliction is obviously an awesome affliction ability, but Ruin will have a huge impact on how well you can nuke. In a good design, power gained through specialization comes at the cost of versatility, which is a form of power in and of itself.
Assuming we're talking purely PvP, I think you are underrating Blast Wave here. In group situations Blast Wave can be pretty devastating (flag room action) and is guarenteed to do some decent damage instantly. In contrast slow can only be applied to one person and is going to be a hot target for dispelling by the 3 classes capable, which hurts with its reasonably high mana cost. 1 vs 1 slow can be dispelled by 3 of the caster classes it affects the most, leaving a good advantage gained fighting other mages and shaman - which is good, but you sacrifice a lot to get it and Blastwave is also nice just because it's an extra instant. Overall I think Slow could use a minor buff, it just sucks too much to have a 41 talent point negated so trivially by a level 12 (I think) priest ability and thats bound to turn people off. Just imagine the amount of abilities dispellable with a full arcane/fire build; Armour, dampen, AI, PoM, AP, ignite, slow. That's scary :(
Another thing that I can't understand is the new shared cooldowns of some important abilities. I can see no reason Combustion and PoM should share a cooldown, it's ridiculous and just removes build options that most definately should be available. No other class faces a restriction like this to my knowledge and it doesnt make sense that a 21 point talent from 1 tree and a 31 point talent from another should have such a negative effect on each other. A similar comparison would be upon the use of Deathwish, Mortal Strike gains a 30 second cooldown. I know how much warriors would just love that.
Dragonbreath and Cone of Cold too. It's a 41 point talent, you lose PoM or Ice Block to get that talent because you want an extra instant attack. Blastwave doesn't share a cooldown with Frost Nova, and rightly so. Why does it have to be a tradeoff? Once again I don't know any other 41 talent point that has such a significant downside.
It's mystifying really, maybe the devs just think Mages are too strong without these restrictions in place.
Another thing that I can't understand is the new shared cooldowns of some important abilities. I can see no reason Combustion and PoM should share a cooldown, it's ridiculous and just removes build options that most definately should be available. No other class faces a restriction like this to my knowledge and it doesnt make sense that a 21 point talent from 1 tree and a 31 point talent from another should have such a negative effect on each other. A similar comparison would be upon the use of Deathwish, Mortal Strike gains a 30 second cooldown. I know how much warriors would just love that.
Dragonbreath and Cone of Cold too. It's a 41 point talent, you lose PoM or Ice Block to get that talent because you want an extra instant attack. Blastwave doesn't share a cooldown with Frost Nova, and rightly so. Why does it have to be a tradeoff? Once again I don't know any other 41 talent point that has such a significant downside.
It's mystifying really, maybe the devs just think Mages are too strong without these restrictions in place.
This is one of my major concerns. I was very excited for dragon breath.... really excited after that pvp video. :) But finding out it shares a cooldown with CoC, well its just ridiculous. I know that you will be able to kite a little bit because of the stun that dragonbreath gives but I use CoC for that instant slow more than anything.
Elemental gains 29.5% of your gear intellect. Rounding makes it off by a point in either direction.
Elemental gains 5 mana for each point of its intellect.
The elemental's base mana is 1700, which means its waterbolts cost 170 mana. In order to deliver a full payload of 17 waterbolts (max practical, since it won't start casting instantly), it needs 170 * 7 = 1190 extra mana from your intellect at level 60.
1190 / 5 = 238 intellect
(238 / 0.295) - 31 = 776 intellect on your gear for the elemental to deliver a full payload.
This is a problem. With my own current gear and Arcane Intellect, my elemental could cast 12 waterbolts. In a raid, it might get enough mana from Judgement of Wisdom procs to cast 14.
Elemental Mana
2081: No gear, no int buff
2126: No gear, +31 int buff on mage (change: +45 mana)
2244: +110 int gear, no int buff (change: +163 mana)
2403: +217 int gear, no int buff (change: +322 mana)
2447: +217 int gear, +31 int buff mage (change: +366 mana)
2556: +217 int gear, +31 int buff on elemental (change: +475 mana)
2607: +217 int gear, +31 int buff on both mage and elemental (change: +526 mana)
Changes from buff to no buff on elemental
(2607 - 2447) / 31 = 5.1613
(2556 - 2403) / 31 = 4.9355
Elemental perhaps getting 5 points of mana per point of intellect? Differences accounted for by rounding.
11/04/06, 3:57 PM
Similar Threads
