Thanks for the quick reply, I was unsure whether to consider them all additive or multiplying each other -- I guess multiplying since thats how blizzard seemed to be moving towards things in general, and I assumed wrong.

I don't understand what blizzard were thinking when they added the spellpower talent. Obviously, they try their vey best to steer things away from the often brought-up 'oneshot' situations, but then they go and give us a talent that makes us do more damage only during those moments.

A 2000 pyroblast is painful, but fully possible to survive. When that pyroblast turns into a 3500 crit that burns for an additional 1400 damage, however, it becomes an entirely different thing. I don't see whyt the attacks should be relatively weak when they don't crit, and really just ovepowered when they do. I've fought my fair share of these mages on my priest and warlock, and they are generally quite pathetic and useless - unless they crit, at which point I rarely stand a chance.

Now, I realize resilience will make this somewhat of a smaller problem, but I still don't see why they want to make our crits so much more powerful when that's exactly what everybody is complaining about.

I don't know, maybe it's just because I hate 'winning' because of random luck, but I don't understand how that is fun at all. You lose 4 out of 5 fights by default ,then you win the 5th by default at well. No 'skill' or anything else involved, you just push one button, and then you win or you lose, and you mostly lose. I just don't see how that's fun.

Spell Power was needed in order to make Arcane just a wee bit viable. What they should've done, but won't ever do is to make it +50% or 100% critical dmg on ARCANE spells. It would make arcane much more viable and get somewhat away from the dribble spec that is arc+element in pvp.

I'm piecing together a mage dps spreadsheet for level 70, and I was wondering if anyone have somewhere I could upload it?

Thanks.

http://www.savefile.com

Having just read the PTR patch notes (http://wow-europe.com/en/info/underdev/testrealm.html) and seeing under bugs:

The Area of Effect damage for "Seed of Corruption" and "Blizzard" has been properly capped.

Does this mean Blizzard as a channelled spell isn't exempt from the new aoe mechanics afterall?

/confused

Could someone please post the stats for a naked human mage at level 70? Just want to see what my stats would be in gear of choice from just 5 mans.

Maybe I'm last to notice, but any thoughts or opinions about Blazing Speed Vs Nether Protection? I mean 30% on a spell hitting you to become immune for 4 sec. That to me is way better than blazing speed.

A 20% procc for 50% speed increase and snare/root immunity for 4 seconds at 2 talent points would be way better than the current Blazing Speed. However, that would be overpowered. Like Nether Protection.

Bliz hates mages.

Real answer, fire/shadow damage is somewhat spread out in pve and pvp, so putting talents into Nether Protection can be a waste depending on what the warlock is doing. Whereas Blazing Speed procs of any melee damage. However you look at it, Nether Protection is the better talent since it's passive mitigation. Blazing Speed doesn't prevent any damage like Nether Protection does, just a gimmicky perk.

I found a somewhat non-retarded thread on the beta (mage) forums about the value of crit vs dmg which makes me think "oh snap not another steath nerf". But id like to see the opinions of more math-experts than me heh

Heres one of the interesting post :
(Rank 14 fireball average dmg is 815)

In the same thinking line, the PVP gems are respectivly 12spell dmg, 10 crit, 6spell dmg 5crit. Again it seems to show the 6dmg = 5 crit rating which seems quite... not sure how to word it... innacurate ?

I'm not exactly sure how he got his 6*(100/0.23)=2609 from tho, anyone fill me in ?

I dont really see the point in calling this a "nerf". If you get to chose, why not take the better ones for your purpose?
The way I see it, crit has always been overbudgeted on items, since it grants you more than "just DPS" in PvP. So you cant really compare the budget of crit and pure spelldmg in terms of PvE-DPS. Nevertheless crit came close to spelldmg (with all the spelldmg) in recent endgame content, since you like to have your stats spread. I expect it to be the same in late BC.

I'm not sure i can agree to that... sure when crit first came out it was on items like the cap of the scarlet savant or the gloves of spell mastery or the ring of entropy, but looking at AQ40 and on items, there was a nice balance achieved where 1% crit was about 12 dmg with ok gear and like 16 with pro gear... which translate fine at lvl 60 with 14 crit rating being worth 12-16dmg...
but hum... you need 22 crit rating for 1% crit at level 70, an increase of almost 60%, yet i havent seen an upgrade of 60% on spell damage...

I wanted to point out 2 things:
1. Crit serves several purposes: It can proc abilities (MoE) or decide the outcome of a PvP duell, etc..

2. The stats on items get more expensive, the farther they are stacked. Unfortunately I dont have the math at hand right now, but it should go something like this:
If you have 10 +dmg on an item, it costs as much as 1% crit
If you have 50 +dmg on an item, the last 5 +dmg cost as much as an adittional 1% crit

I see your point, but somewhere in this thread was a screenshot of a lvl 70 mage with around 1.1k +dmg in average gear (+naxx-mix), so that would be a 60% encrease (compared to your equip e.g.). Blizzard also rose the itemlvl to 115-120 in endgame instances, so again, that would be an itemlvl-gain of around 20-30 compared to current endgame gear. And you dont want everybody to run around with 50% crit. *g*

Yes, and if you have Spell Power, the calculations stack up more in favour of crit. The approximate level 60 equation of 1%crit = 12-15 +damage becomes something 15-19 +damage in a deep arcane/frost build, for example. That said, the utility is largely in PvP - bursty crit damage is not a good idea aggro-wise in PvE, and the synergy between critting fire mages no longer exists.

Hmmm. So I guess what we need is a feel for how much +damage you need on an item before it's "worth" getting +crit. What we can definitively say is that an item that has +crit but no +damage is underpowered relative to its item level, especially in PvE.

I don't remember seeing a pic of that mage, if you can find it let me know. I think the point people are trying to say is crit rating was made so we don't have 40% crit at 70, but why does that mean we go from:

25% crit (level 60 gear)
-down-
20% crit (level 70 gear).

I can see not giving us more crit than we have now, but hopefully it should level out. From the items I've seen, it looks like +crit on items is still based on how much crit rating is needed for 1% crit at level 60, leading to low crit at 70.

As of now I plan on stacking +dmg gear rather than trying to worry about finding gear with decent +dmg and +crit. (like Polarity / Mindflayer) Just because of how (seemingly) overvalued +crit is right now, formula wise anyway.

Because our current crit levels are based on the top end of WoW version 1 gear. If they remained at the same level at 70, then where does the progression come from 6 months down the line when we're in The Black Temple? WE'll be right back at 40% crit mages annihilating everything.

I do think that crit rating is overbudgeted though. Especially on the shoulder enchants & gems, where the numbers just don't match up at all. It's going to be annoying to get faction with the BE's for my leg enchants, and then have to do the Aldor for my shoulder enchants...

I saw the notes that the BEs give the spell damage leg enchant in the newest beta patch but previously it was the Aldor. Maybe it will change back?

Regardless, only one tailor needs BE rep (assuming you were making the blue version of the spell damage leg enchant). Note the epic version requires a BoP heroic mode item, so it may be better to have the BE rep so you can more easily make the epic leg enchant.

id love to see that screenshot of a mage with over 1k spell dmg... unbuffed... fully buffed(flask,pots,trinket) ive broke 1.1k but we need to talk fully buffed to have crit fall in line i think... sadly i bet that screenshot was with some spellstealing of a +dmg buff some mobs... prob with a flask for good measure too :/

getting a quick list from thottbot with TBC epics :
227 for helm,shoulders,chest,gloves,pants : tier 5 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?set=649 188 dmg + 12 (red) + 6 (blue) + 6(pvp orange) + 3x5 (recipe orange)
34 for belt : http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16062
28 for bracers: http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=15862
32 for boots : http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16240

30 for cloak : cloak of the devoured devoured
56 for 2 rings : FF ring + http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=17222
72 for 2 trinkets : mark of defiance + http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=3293
150 for staff : atiesh mage
13 for wand : http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16405
152 for enchants : 50sunfire 20gloves 15bracers 27pants 22helm 18shoulders

total 794

which is actualy not even 50 more than i have right now... granted that set would have significantly more stamina, int and spirit, 2 better trinkets, most likely more crit and hit rating than what i have (altho maybe less % ?)... but its still very far from the 1100 spell dmg

I found the screenshot: http://i15.tinypic.com/357fxh2.jpg

But I realized that I saw it first before 2.0 came out and didnt know, that the buffs (Flask and talisman in his case) also add to the spellbonusdamage readout (unlike casterstats). Now, when I look at it again and take that into account, i have to admit that he might sit on 800 +dmg at most.

That trinket is the Vengeance of the Illidari, +120dmg. He's also got a flask, +150. Hes obviously deep arcane spec because the mind mastery talent actualy only adds +dmg to arcane fire and frost, thus why thoses 3 are above holy and nature.
Thus his unbuffed spell dmg is actualy 642 (912-150-120).