Yeah I mean I think everyone realizes that the clear winner for damage is heavy fire, but the discussion thus far has been about giving up a little of that damage for some PVP utility (or a less stagnant damage cycle). At least that's how I see it.

It really is a tough decision though. Last night a shadow priest and I were doing the first part of the Kharazan key and kept having to fight Alliance. I was wishing I was frost the whole time. But shortly after we did Shadow Labs and all that went away as full fire is, again, absolutely disgusting in instances. We had two warlocks and myself and Murmur just crumbled.

Why do decisions have to be hard ><. I guess it comes down to what you think you'll be doing more of, and for me right now, it's PVE. I do enough world questing though to possibly warrent at least trying 40/0/21.

Nejyn, I can host versions of your spreadsheet as long as you aren't planning on WoW forum release of it; I want to take a look at it anyway, since neither Klau nor Arawethion's sheets are quite what I want. I can't give you upload access for it, though, you'll have to email it to me and have me upload it.

Email kalman@radiationnow.net if you're interested.

edit: And I have Arcane Potency; the boosted crit is quite noticeable when you switch to AM on clearcast. It's certainly the most damage you can get out of one cast (~500 damage per tick is nice; when 4 of the 5 ticks crit at 200%? *Quite* nice.) which would seem to suggest that you should benefit at least a little from switching to AM.

175%?

Is that how the mechanic works? The rogue crit bonus increase could be additive or multiplicative, since the base crit bonus is 100%, and I could swear that my typical crit AM ticks are 900-1000, not 700-800 as would be implied by a ~500 base tick.

edit: Obviously that's how it works, since Shards is 100% increase. Observer bias, in this case my bias to remember bigger numbers, strikes again!

My damage seems pretty close to Kalman's, I see ~490-520 AM ticks depending on stuff like Adept's, or food buffs. AM crits for 890-ish up to 900 and change. With 30% more crit, on a Clearcast, I would think it's more efficient to switch to AM.

I checked out Klau's spreadsheet and it's pretty easy to input your information, but it seems to assume that every cast is a crit. At least, the number that it puts up when I enter spell choice shows crit-like damage. Am I missing something? Is it supposed to calc optimal spell rotation? It seems it just lets me input spells and it tells me what damage they do. Hell, even half-broken Theorycraft can do that. :)

Given that Klau's spreadsheet won't even let me put a 5th point into Improved Frostbolt (running under OpenOffice), it's totally unusable to me.

Now I want to test AM damage with Spellpower to see what the deal is instead of packing. :/

66 seems to be a good point to respec to arc/frost. I wanted to nerf myself after I crit a frostbolt for 2500, which froze the mob, followed by an instant IL which crit for 2000. There's a lot of synergy in arc/frost between the stacking crit modifiers from Shards and Spell Power, and Arcane Potency. And this is coming from a diehard ex-fire mage, who publicly mocked any frosties. As has been stated by multiple people, Arcane is all about versatility. It might take you a while to get used to it, but it's worth it. You won't even have to take your fire spells off the bar, because Arcane buffs all your trees. I find myself using less fireballs, but I do find uses for scorch and fireblast quite often. I believe my spec is in my ctprofile link on the left.

As a pure arcane mage at 70 I'm running with about 12k mana, 250 mana regen, missiles hitting for about 600. On trash mobs if I'm not getting hit I'll mostly go with full Arcane Blast spam, in most cases I'll have plenty of mana leftover and level 70 water is so good I have low enough downtime. On longer boss fights I go for 3 x Arcane Blast + 2 x Arcane Missiles cycle. I'm also positively surprised with how much utility Slow has in PVE. Its value in raiding will probably not be as high, but for instancing it works great for setting up trash pulls and makes it tons easier to handle caster mobs.

Doesn't assume every cast is a crit for me. It uses your crit rate to figure how much your average damage is for that spell. Exactly like you would suspect, a person with a 40% crit rate on spell X will do more damage on average with that spell than someone with a lower crit rate.

You simply enter your spell sequence of choice and it will tell you the dps, OOM time, DPMP, avg DPM, etc.

The only thing I dislike is that it assumes zero latency and there is nowhere I found to input it. Latency and AB debuffs make it tough to find solid theorycraft rotations.

I'm packing to move right now, so I just got a chance to check.

http://www.radiationnow.net/wow/mage_dps.xls

Neyjyn, I looked at your v1.1 spreadsheet and I'm thinking that Mind Mastery should work on the buffed and talented intellect value, shouldn't it? You have it calculating the bonus spell damage off of the unbuffed and untalented intellect value. I might just be ignorant, but I'm hoping it works off of the higher number :). I've been playing around with your v1.0 spreadsheet for a while and that was one thing that I noticed. I also noticed it's still using the level 60 buff values, like AI is 31 not 40, etc.

I think the actual dps of an AB/Scorch/AM clearcast sequence would be higher than what the sheet seems to be giving me, especially after you take 3/3 Arcane Potency into account on the clearcast (which I know you're not). The dps for the sequence is less than an initial AB, scorch or AM. I don't see how it can be lower than all 3 being chaincast separately. I'd expect a number somewhere in between all 3 or maybe even higher if you took Arcane Potency into account. Hopefully that makes sense, it's a little confusing as I re-read it.

I think when you removed the alliance/horde switch to add in Blessing of Kings into your intellect calculations, you ended up turning kings off by default.

Another item would be the newly nerfed Improved Fireball and Improved Frostbolt spell damage coefficients. I don't know exactly what the math works out to.

Also, is the Gnome racial "Expansive Mind" a flat multiplier after buffs and other talents or does it only affect intellect from gear? I always assumed it was a flat 1.05 multiplier to all intellect (gear+buffs), but I never really new for sure. It would be nice to add a check-box in for that on the main page. I add it in for myself, but others might like it as well.

I've been going with a 3x Arcane Blast, Arcane Missiles, 1x Scorch (or Fireblast), repeat rotation. It's about a 1/2 second tighter than 4 scorches in between blasts, but it still seems to be do-able, unless I'm missing a tick of the missiles and not realizing it. I usually really have to time the button presses just right to fit it all in with whatever my lag must be. I'll give 4 scorches a whirl instead and see how that works out. The timing of that would seem to be a lot looser and easier to repeat over and over again when I'm dead tired.

I love these spreadsheets. Keep up the good work!

Yeah, 40/21/0 here, and ABx2/Scorchx4 is the way to go. I don't even bother to cancel a spellcast for Clearcasts (with the exception of a Clearcast following the second AB) because the DPS doesn't change too radically. I was previously 44/17 (Emp. AM and Slow) but I don't like AM's scaling at 70, or lack thereof. Arcane Impact boosts AB's DPS significantly, even more than you might first think.

For those on the Arcane fence, note that Mind Mastery + Spellfire set bonus will add ~200 spell damage at 600 Intellect, where I'm currently at. I'd like to talent Fireball and introduce that into the cycle, but at the same time don't want to because:

1. I took Impact, and almost refuse to burn ten points in both IFB and Impact.
1a. I want to keep Impact because it's the only combat CC (as opposed to the Frostie) I have for Heroics.
2. I don't want to use Fireball without the Empowered talent.

Perhaps a Mage with Heroic experience can shed some light on Impact's worth.

I'm assuming a 40/21/0 build looks like this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=kbxVc0fzxIziZVtM0fMz ? I'm definitely planning to go Spellfire Tailoring on my mage :)

Edit: Actually... Pyro for use with PoM? 2/2 Flame Throwing? Ditch Burning Soul? :o

Picked up this trinket last night and I've noticed some very interesting things about it. While the proc rate is low (~5% range), I've had it proc off of things such as:
1) Switching auras
2) Spiritual Attunement converting a VE heal into mana

Needless to say, it's a little stronger than it should be in certain circumstances.

I wonder if 0 stamina + very fragile arcene / fire specs are actually viable for raiding? I set myself to different route choosing shadoweave set and a backup plan to bid fire/arcane usable stuff from instantes. I have to agree that the damagepotential and setbonus of Spellfire set is huge for arcane/fire but somehow I feel very worried about having multiple items with 0 stamina.

edit:
I've already encountered multiple quite mean aoe-mechanics in 5mans, and I've yet to enter heroics...

My favorite: It procs off of the invisible, nameless, "you can see the dead" buff that you get flying into Terrokar.

Regarding stamina - I'm at 6.2K, and the full blue set of gear I'm aiming for from the normal level 60 dungeons in preperation from Kharzahn will include all 3 Spellfire pieces and well over 6600 health unbuffed. Yes, I want more, but realistically, along with mana shield, it's a lot more survivability than I've been used to in the past.

Arcane / Fire specs : there are two real specs available going deep arcane and fire. (I'm assuming Mind Mastery as required for boosting Arcane Blast). The choice is really between Arcane Missiles or not, and gives you the following numbers, based on the same stats I listed earlier (+600 to spell damage, 400 intellect, 21% crit rate inc Molten Armour, 6% hit rate, 0.2 second casting lag). Spending the points into Arcane Missiles does leave a slightly odd build, and you can't pick up Master of Elements or the single point in Critical Mass. I've assumed Arcane Potency to just add +3% crit rate but see the end for conclusions about spell switching on CC procs. The debuff mentioned is the full effects of the Improved Scorch talent.

Build 1 : Arcane Missiles http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ofLVc0czxIuiZxtM0f

Build 2 : Fireball, no missiles http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=oi0VsoczxIziZxtM0fMz

Scorch (AM Build) : 566 DPS, 5.35 DPM
Scorch (AM build, debuff up) : 651 DPS, 6.15 DPM
Scorch (FB Build) : 577 DPS, 5.84 DPM
Scorch (FB Build, debuff up) : 664 DPS, 6.72 DPM

Fireball (AM Build) : 614 DPS, 4.63 DPM
Fireball (AM Build, Debuff up) : 706 DPS, 5.31 DPM
Fireball (FB Build) : 627 DPS, 5.01 DPM
Fireball (FB Build, debuff up) : 721 DPS, 5.76 DPM

Arcane Missiles (AM Build) : 684 DPS, 4.11 DPM

If you switch spells on a clearcasted proc, the spell you switch to would have :

Fireball, (FB Build, debuff up) : 920 DPS, average *gain* of 48 mana
Arcaen Missiles (AM Build) : 800 DPS, + one tick of full spirit.

Summary

There really isn't much in it... The Arcane Missiles build means that Arcane Missiles is always more damage per second than an unbuffed mob being hit by fireball. This would mean that Arcane Missiles is more effective on trash mobs, where the debuff generally doesn't get put up anyway, as Arcane Blast is your most commonly used spell here.
On a mob where the scorch debuff is put up, then fireball is roughly 37 DPS more damage assuming you just spam the spell. If you take the time to switch spells on a clearcasting proc, then fireball obviously has a much greater benefit because of that, due to the two points in Master of Elements and the massive difference in crit damage between the two spells.

It's incredibly difficult I find to model out which is a better build for instancing. Certainly, both builds are capable of putting out some ludicrous numbers with arcane blast spam, or some very decent sustainable numbers on very long fights where mana efficiency is a concern. (Indeed, the Fireball build has the highest sustainable DPM spell availabe to *any* build I can currently model, with a fully debuffed mob twisting scorch and Arcane Blast).

Final caveat - its imporant to note that even with the Fireball build, you cannot just ramp up the scorch debuff and spam fireballs on a boss. This will result in a lower DPS output than a pure fire build, and is a waste of the potential of Arcane. You're going to need to be using Arcane Blast at some level in order to finish equal or ahead of a fire build spamming fireball, as that build has both huge damage output and extremely good (relative) DPM levels.
At the moment, on the normal level 70 dungeons, I find that I can sustain Arcane Blast for the majority of a bosses life assuming I use common sense and interweave a secondary elemental spell every so often. That's obviously not going to be the case on Heroic difficulty mobs and in Karazhan, in which case you might be best equipped by interweaving scorch & arcane blast in bursts, and switching to Fireball on a clearcast proc.

Final, Final Caveat - Arcane Blast with 3 debuffs is still the best spell usage for a clearcasting proc in pure damage terms, coming in at 1067 DPS for that particular blast on average. However, obviously this is no where near as efficient in overall mana terms as a Fireball or Arcane Missiles both of which will actually gain you some mana on average. Like many aspects of the arcane build, it's one of those choices you have to consider every time it happens, there's no default "right answer".

N.B. Both Arcane Missiles (Empowered) and Fireball scale at almost exactly the same rates in terms of + to spell damage gear. It is only in terms of + to crit where Fireball scales better than Arcane Missiles, due to the nature of the crits therein. However - has anyone ever confirmed fully whether casting Arcane Missiles on a clearcast procs means that the first missile gets the benefit, or all 5 missiles? I've assumed all 5, but if it's only the first then that pretty much kills the Arcane Missiles build for me at the moment.

From the times it's been brought up in the past, it's been said that it applies to all missiles. I haven't ever spec'ed the talent, so I don't know from first hand experience however.

It's interesting to watch this, however I'm pondering just how good a mix of fire and arcane is myself. I'm currently deep fire, and the fireball spam yields really good DPS, my crit rate is 30%+, despites having shoddy gear, and while I do drink alot, it's not slowing down my group (and MoE really shines here). But one thing to be said for spam, is that the cycle is easy. There are no real choices, making it very easy to min-max. On a boss, you get scorch up, then pop DPS cooldowns, and start spamming fireball. Having to swap spells at a moments notice, would be refreshing I think, but I'm also thinking that in the end, it'll just be tiring. It's not like DPS cycles is the only thing we need to be aware off in a fight, and if the DPS gains are negible, I'm not sure I'm prepared to excert the effort. Playing should be fun, challenging, and sometimes stressing. Making your main DPS cycle stressing -- edgy -- seems very unappealing to me at least. And the issue of losing a GCD on swapping spells, well I think that will make a sizable dent in the DPS as well.

How do you feel compared to a deep fire build? Against other mages/dps'ers?

I went 39/0/22 last night and I'm loving it. Kept up with our best rogue in PVE and PVPed for two hours at Halaa. Those three minute cooldowns really shine in world PVP, because they are almost always up for the start of another encounter. And Iceblock... The only things I missed were the range on frost and elemental precision. I think eventually I'll drop a few in Mind Mastery to pick at least the range up.

Has anyone run the numbers for pure blast spam with no regard to debuffs? It's an option a lot of people overlook, I think. I could see it being really useful for the end of boss fights and emergencies. So what if it's horribly inefficient, sometimes something just needs to die, quickly.

At the moment in the normal, no-heroic level 70 instances, there is absolutely no question that I do at least the equivalent damage of a deep fire damage. The ability to sustain Arcane Blast at 900+ DPs for the majority of a boss fight, and the fact I use it on almost all trash packs without slowing down my group, provides a huge boost. *Personally*, so far I've been ahead of every fire or frost mage I've grouped with, in roughly equivalent gear, but that just may be a playskill thing. Playing Arcane well *demands* that you focus more than you're used to, and I do know of several Arcane mages whom my guild mates won't group with because they pull out absolutely *awful* DPS numbers whilst going out of mana in seconds.

What you say about the specs is true though - even ignoring switching spells for Arcane Potency on a clear cast proc, your arcane mage *has* to do a lot more thinking and spell changing if they want to be effective. Personally, I love that - it's what I feel has been missing fomr the mage class compared to others, and it's why I'm sticking with arcane no matter what. But that's how I like to play - I've recommended to other players that they stick with deep fire, because it provides great DPS, superb DPM once scorch is ramped up, and is overall highly effective. There's no right here - Arcane just offers a very different play experiance I find refreshing and challenging personally.

(I'm not saying Arcane mages are any better players. I'm just saying that to be a good arcane mage demands that you are, and if you aren't, then you perform *really* badly, whilst a bad fire mage can still pull out some decent numbers just with spam. Obviously, a good fire mage pulls out much better numbers, and like most things, I tend to find it a gamer versus non gamer sort of thing)

Re. the missiles - I checked my character sheet as aI cast them, and the +30% to the spells crit chance vanishes as soon as the first missile hits and the clearcasting buff goes. I guess I'm going to need to parse myself using it to see how it plays out, but that relies on me changing talent builds for the 8th time just to ge the IMproved Arcane Missiles talent again...

I posted some thoughts earlier on Arcane Blast spam with no debuffs (same base gear I always use : +600 to spell damage, 400 intellect, 21% crit rate inc. MA, 6% hit rate, 0.2 second casting lag), although not any builds that weren't arcane at all ramped up. Figures changed slightly since then because I wasn't adding Arcane Potency in for some reason on the Arcane builds.

Arcane Blast, 0 points in Arcane : 731 DPS
Arcane Blast, 30+ in arcane : 851 DPS
Arcane Blast, 40+ in Arcane : 918 DPS

Even with 0 points in Arcane, Arcane Blast is still the best spam spell a frost mage can use when they have to burn mana fast - it's higher DPS than frostbolt on a fully winters chill debuffed mob. Obviously, it's at a huge damage per mana cost. Fireball spam remains higher DPS until you put 30 points into Arcane, at which point Arcane Blast is quite substantially higher for burning stuff down even on a scorch debuffed mob. (851 verus 760 DPS).

It's important to note though - Arcane Blast spam is sustainable more than you would expect. I end up using it fully ramped up on most boss fights so far for a large part of the fight. Yes, you have to take breaks, evocate and interweave your secondary elemental nuke, but you can stretch that mana bar surprisingly far casting a 600 mana nuke. It's the main source of my damage in instances, which surprised me. I think one of the advantages of an Arcane build is the fact you can convert every single point of mana you have to damage in every fight if you want to and can cope with doing so, and even a fire build going full burn can't do that. (And would probably overaggro anyway).

That is awesome, awesome data.

And you're right - on the 2nd boss in Morass, when we're really racing against the clock with that healing debuff, I tended to blast most of the time. Clearcasting AM is almost enough to allow me to blast the entire time, because it lets the debuff wear off.

It's nice to know that at the expense of mana we can blow up when something needs to die, even more than a fire mage. And then there's AP/PoM as well...