Is it certain that Fireball rank 9 is getting 100% of spelldamage? I thought they were going to add scaling multiplier to make downranking less usefull? I don't have the BC beta myself, so I can't test it myself. Do your numbers include this?
Stealing the coefficient from the healer-thread, Rank9 FB would get about 0.875 or something like if i check quickly from the graph.
To be honest, I added Rank 9 fireball in after the calculations out of curiosity. It's a level 48 spell, so fairly high up, and well above the original level 40 ceiling that was originally mentioned. But no, atm it doesn't include that modifier - hard data on downranking damage spells would be very useful.
Regarding stacking debuffs & % talent modifiers - you'll have to explain in more detail what I've done wrong here Christmas. I *think* my numbers give accurate data for current in game spells, but obviously I'm not very confident in them... :)
Well, it came up in a <class that we won't mention> thread before, here, and wasn't satisfactorily resolved. I can use that <class> to test tonight, hopefully, if my server is actually up. But if I'm right (and that's what the evidence there indicated) then stacking, say, Curse of Elements and Fire Vulnerability is multiplicative, so would yield 1.265 damage multiplier rather than 1.25 (it's 1.1*1.15 vs 1.1+1.15). But buffs seemed to be additive - so in a mage's case, say on Cone of Cold, you'd get 1.06 from Piercing Ice and 1.35 from Improved Cone of Cold. These would then give a combined modifier of 1.41 to Cone of Cold damage rather than 1.431 (if self buffs were multiplicative). There was recently a patch saying all things were multiplicative, but the evidence of this other thread didn't support that.
If it is all multiplicative, then your calculations are right. And, also, deep Arcane will be insanely good if it's supported by other classes.
That said: does anyone know if multiple wrath of air totems stack? I would assume not, but I haven't bothered to find out much about most totem mechanics.
The talents are still being tweaked, so making any comparison now while interesting, means little. There is a Warlock TBC thread for your rantings.
Anyway, no current Shaman totems stack, nor will the new totems stack either.
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Hmm, thinking about it, I would say that the Improved Scorch Debuff and Curse of Elements would be additive with each other, but apply on of top of the % damage talents.
i.e. All the % damage talents (Firepower, Molten fury, Playing with Fire) are additive, bringing the total % modifiers to +19%.
All the debuffs are also additive (Curse of elements, Improved Scorch), bringing the total to 25%.
This 25% would then act on the already increased fireball damage from talents. In effect, youd get 19% extra damage onto your fireball, and then a further 25% on top of that. If that is how it works, then it further increases the gap betweem fire and the other 2 spell lines, as Fire has a much bigger debuff on the mob than frost or arcane.
Re. Arcane - which other classes do you mean, and how do they support it? The mana costs people were throwing round imply that only with an innervate, mana tide totem and maybe a shadowpriest could you sustain Arcane Blast for any length of time... :)
If it is all multiplicative, then your calculations are right. And, also, deep Arcane will be insanely good if it's supported by other classes.
Buffs from talents are defintiely multiplicative, from my own research, at least in the live game. If you have 3 Instability and 3 Piercing Ice for example, you get 1.03 * 1.06 = 1.0918, which is consistent with the numbers I had flying across the screen.
I tested with a warlock, using corruption, once with no demon and once with a succubus out and soul link active. If they were additive I should have received +13% damage, if multiplicative, +13.3%; the results were definitely multiplicative.
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Hmm. That makes a 3% difference (or roughly 20DPS) to my current fireball in my current gear. So fairly significant - but which talents & debuffs are additive and which multiplicative? At the moment all my calculations are done assuming all % modifiers were additive, but assuming they weren't, Fireballs DPS goes up by 60 DPS to 1168 DPS against a mob 3 levels higher than you, a 5.5% increase.
Does anyone have a definitive answer on what is additive and what is multiplcative, or am I going to have to do a silly amount of tests using scorch on things? :)
EDIT: That would mean fireball is doing just under 1500 DPS on a mob 3 levels higher under 20% health, not using the new rank of spells. Ouch.
if you do the same calcs with release, do you achieve 6-700 DPS with fireball9? That seems to be about what I've seen most mages hit in naxx, just curious if backtesting validates.
i've found buffs you 'see' .. ie. soul link/curse of shadow/touch of shadow are multiplative.
talents which add to spells .. ie. shadow mastery/emp corruption/emberstorm are additative.
Vetinari, I'm not sure the kind of competition you are suggesting really makes sense.
Assuming equal gear, blah blah. I've seen very few folks OF THE SAME CLASS that have the exact same gear. Also, things like threat changes, spell schools, synergy (Ignite vs Imp Shadowbolt), and utility - not to mention the players themselves - will make a big difference. I doubt anyone would refuse a well-geared and well-played Warlock to fill a ranged DPS position. Same goes for Hunters and Mages. They can all provide ranged, consistent, threat-reduced damage, all with their own unique bags of tricks and flavor. I just don't see a straight numerical comparison as being very valuable at this stage.
Vodrin, I think that makes sense - but the above posters directly contradict that. Navaash reports that Arcane Instability & piercing Ice, neither of which gives you a buff, are multiplicative.
Spronk - with my current gear (+592 to fire damage, +9% to crit, +4% to hit), Rank 9 fireball is 573 DPS and 6.02 DPM. That compares to Scorch at 582 DPS and 6.29 DPM. Naxx mages will be wearing a lot more than me though, and at a better ration of +700 to damage, +12% to crit, +6% to hit, the numbers become :
Scorch is 667 DPS, at a cost of 7.28 DPM
Fireball Rank 9 is 691 DPS, at a cost of 7.42 DPM. <<--- has overtaken Scorch on all aspects basically.
Those calculations were done using multiplicative buffs, not additive, but the same overall trend in results would occur.
I'm curious as to if anyone is considering an Elemental build.
Right now it seems pretty week. An extremely powerful fire talent that greatly buffs frost or vis versa would be pretty cool.
I'm starting over as a Draenei mage, and I will go for shatter first and then head into the fire tree all the way down to Dragon's breath. Shatter is too powerful to pass on, both for grinding and pvp.
Why start over?
Tired of the race and I´ve been wanting to start over as a mage for quite some time for some weird reason. I dont expect the next expansion to be as overwhelming as this one, so I think now is the best time to roll another race.
I cannot believe after this long people still argue over whether talents and such are applied multiplicatively. This is something so easy to test that people who argue otherwise have no basis for their claims and as such should stop posting such drivel.
Some of these numbers seem kinda high unless you're accounting for full dps consumables. Are you accounting for casting lag by adding at least .3 seconds to the casting time?
Nope, no consumeables at all, just a fully debuffed mob. See my earlier post for how I arrived at those numbers.
Re. Lag - no, I dont take that into account, because my connection is a pretty stable green 30MS. Although it obviously lowers DPs overall, and scorch more than the others, the % are actually quite small at those levels.
I'll redo my maths with multiplicative buffs & debuffs now, that should increase the numbers on my TBC numbers.
Slightly off topic. I think the trees should have more significant differences. The problem is that all our trees are by design focused on ranged damage. If you make the nukes too similar then the only real difference will be whether you shoot red, blue or white bolts.
Right now, trees are mainly differentiated by a few signature talents. Ice Block, Arcane Power etc. This has gotten worse with BC because they made arcane a viable main tree. Don't get me wrong, I like the buffs to arcane. But now our trees are even more similar - 3 straight damage trees, instead of 2 damage 1 support.
Compare this to warlocks, where each tree has vastly different talents. And lets not forget priests, where there is a world of a difference between a shadow and a holy priest. And discipline is unique in what it offers, too. We on the other hand have many overlapping talents. Crit ungimper, crit increaser, range extender, main-nuke-empowerer, main nuke improver - you name it, 2-3 trees got it.
Water elemental and slow are steps in the right direction, but they are more of the "signature talent" variety. Now frost will be known for Ice Block and Water Elemental instead of just Ice Block.
What I am concerned is the long-term enjoyability of the mage class. Especially fire looks very boring now. Powerful but boring, since its all about more damage. How many +X% damage talents can you have before it gets repetetive? And while having one tree focused on nothing but damage is fine, the problem is that the min-maxers will flock to that tree, unless they give similar damage to the other trees too - and we are back at square one.
Given how close BC is to release, what do you guys think Blizzard can do to bring more variety to the class?
I dont see why people are so upset about the counterspell nerf. Sure, it's a big hit in solo pvp and possibly in some PvE situations, but in group pvp four seconds silence is still four seconds silence to your teammates even though you´re on global cd yourself.
It's quite easy to predict when you need to use it anyways, so it shouldnt be that hard to make sure that you aren't already on global cd. Just gonna take some time getting used to it.
I dont see why people are so upset about the counterspell nerf. Sure, it's a big hit in solo pvp and possibly in some PvE situations, but in group pvp four seconds silence is still four seconds silence to your teammates even though you´re on global cd yourself.
By default, there is no silence component to counterspell. If a mage has the arcane talent for silence on CS, then I'd agree with you, this really isn't that big a "deal" for that mage. However, the general case is that the spell itself does not have a silence effect, it has to be timed properly (easier with a cast bar). In current WoW, if I fire off a counterspell and "miss" the window (quite possible on a 1.5 second cast spell with lag), then I haven't really wasted any time. In the beta/TBC, I can't move to my next spell right away, I have to wait for the GCD and on a "miss" that's a decent amount of time for an enemy caster to get ahead.
As far as variety goes, we're basically getting a 3rd nuke option in the expansion. Currently, everyone debates fire vs frost, roll the ignites or DPM/survive. In TBC, we have one additional nuke possibility (arcane blast) and a few more options in terms of mixing and matching talents. I forsee Spell Steal being used seldomly (gimmick fight). Invisibility is our agro wipe (warlocks got one, hunters and rogues have theirs already). I'm not sure what other variety we can have without encroaching on other classes (a popular flame bait topic), but I'll have to think about it some more.
10/19/06, 10:37 AM
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