TBC Mage Theorycrafting - Page 83

duostrike · 04/06/07, 2:31 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

You're overestimating AP/POM's benefit to pyro a bit. You need E(AP POM pyro) - E(1.5s normal casting), basically, to come up with the actual benefit from AP/POM on pyro (same method can be applied to any other spell, though).

I do like AP for
Aran (elementals stage)
Curator (evocation)
Prince (stage 2)
Illhoof (Vuln)

It adds a bit more to the equation than just chain casting. I wouldn't ask anyone to begin to model all of these but if you are thinking of various specs it does help to think of the situational benefits.

◊ Vontre · 04/06/07, 4:27 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

You're overestimating AP/POM's benefit to pyro a bit. You need E(AP POM pyro) - E(1.5s normal casting), basically, to come up with the actual benefit from AP/POM on pyro (same method can be applied to any other spell, though).

(12k? 12000/2.45/1.3 = 3767, so you'd need to have non-crit pyro's for 3800 - is that reachable?)

Actually the math doesn't add up, but I have personally seen an 8k pyro crit on Gruul. I'm pretty sure I had wrath of air and improved divine spirit, maybe a trinket up too.

You're right on that. I adjusted my calculations to remove 1.5 seconds of arcane blast cycle dps plus an additional 1 second for a clearcast switch. The result was about 18 dps overall increase. So it's still noticeable, and is more noticeable the more pyros you are able to perform in a fight duration.

Teenee · 04/07/07, 1:16 PM

I'm wondering what other people's Evocation macro's look like.

#show Evocation
/equip [button:1] Staff of Divine Infusion
/equip [button:1] Dragonscale Wand of Spirit
/cast [button:1] Evocation
/equip [button:2] Blade of the Archmage
/equip [button:2] Flametongue Seal
/equip [button:2] Nexus Torch

I've noticed that in-combat, I need to click this macro several times, first to equip staff, then wand, then again to evocate, then again for main-hand, then offhand, and finally wand. When OOC, however it works in one-click on, one-click off. Is this just how it is? Any way to optimize this?

(thanks to Drauk for the staff tip btw, cheap and solid)

Donjo · 04/07/07, 3:40 PM

Originally Posted by Antiphonal

I'll start with 10/0/51:

Basic talent setup: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=Rf0VZZVAGIofxkiot

What you get: A nicely performing build with lots of survivability for PvP and oh-crap buttons in PvE. In fights lasting 90 seconds or less and where the Water Elemental is strategically useful, it approaches the dps of Deep Fire builds. In longer fights it loses its dps lustre. Winter's Chill (your primary boss debuff) is automatically applied with all frost spells, so there is no need to do the equivalent of keeping a scorch stack maintained or refreshing DoTs. Frostbolt does all your work for you, allowing more concentration on positioning and fight mechanics. Even your primary DPS cooldown (the Water Elemental) has his own mana supply and aggro generation, so you can fire and forget.

Frostbolt itself has less dps than Fireball and more than Scorch, and also sits in between Fireball and Scorch in mana efficiency - making this build have the least need for micromanaging mana.

The PvP utility of the Elemental and Shatter is famous, as is the double iceblock in arenas allowing you to stop two assist train attempts. Ice Barrier can soak up DoT ticks as well as wand or gun damage from rooted opponents. Most frost arena players prefer 17 points in arcane for ICS, but the build above is more than adequate for the semi-serious arena player.

Solo play is very strong. Long range, easy kiting of elites, short cooldown on kiting tools. Overlapping cooldown on Cone of Cold allows for safe-ish AoE kiting - though not as safe as a 2/3 Improved Blizzard setup.

What you don't get: You sacrifice dps for utility and survivability. If that is not an okay tradeoff, this build will frustrate you. You have little control over the mana -> damage conversion rate (especially contrasted with the 4x/y/z builds). The Water Elemental sometimes refuses to attack targets or move, and in some fights he is a liability and never spawned. Ice Barrier is great, but doesn't absorb as much damage as it feels like it should. Helpful for incidental damage, but won't protect well enough. Many of the talents make solo fighting and heroic instances easier, but do little to translate into boss damage.

There are no specific weaknesses per se, it is just not a specialist build - except perhaps for freezable trash mobs or solo content.

Little-known trick - The Water Elemental's ranged waterbolt gets a boost from Winter's Chill. Even though he doesn't contribute to your aggro, wait until you have a full 5xWC on the boss before releasing your pet blobby. He'll appreciate the extra 10% crit.

Have you considered 0/18/43? You'll have to live without permafrost, 2 points in WC and ice floes but with master of elements you save more mana as long as you have 33.3% or more crit (and with a fully stacked winter's chill you will have 15% right there). Any additional crit is just money in the bank. Plus you get the benefits of being able to get more damage out of any fireblasts that you choose to work into your rotation.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=kZVgh00cZVAGcofxocot is what I use. Sure it isn't the holy grail of PvE DPS but mages in my guild prefer frost so while they are all 40/0/21 spec I can help them out a ton with winter's chill.

Northerner · 04/07/07, 5:39 PM

Originally Posted by Teenee

I'm wondering what other people's Evocation macro's look like.

#show Evocation
/equip [button:1] Staff of Divine Infusion
/equip [button:1] Dragonscale Wand of Spirit
/cast [button:1] Evocation
/equip [button:2] Blade of the Archmage
/equip [button:2] Flametongue Seal
/equip [button:2] Nexus Torch

I've noticed that in-combat, I need to click this macro several times, first to equip staff, then wand, then again to evocate, then again for main-hand, then offhand, and finally wand. When OOC, however it works in one-click on, one-click off. Is this just how it is? Any way to optimize this?

(thanks to Drauk for the staff tip btw, cheap and solid)

Outfitter (and Itemrack I assume) have event triggers for Evocation and many other things. It's not perfect but it works.

Antiphonal · 04/07/07, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by Donjo

Have you considered 0/18/43? You'll have to live without permafrost, 2 points in WC and ice floes but with master of elements you save more mana as long as you have 33.3% or more crit (and with a fully stacked winter's chill you will have 15% right there). Any additional crit is just money in the bank. Plus you get the benefits of being able to get more damage out of any fireblasts that you choose to work into your rotation.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=kZVgh00cZVAGcofxocot is what I use. Sure it isn't the holy grail of PvE DPS but mages in my guild prefer frost so while they are all 40/0/21 spec I can help them out a ton with winter's chill.

I had considered it, actually. I see these problems with it:

1. 3/5 WC is ok-ish. But in movement-intensive fights where you might have to throw a FrB or two at adds, I hate the idea of a WC stack falling off due to bad luck. Since you have other mages relying on you to keep it going, I'd prefer 5/5.

2. The 15 points you have to put into fire to get MoE are basically wasted except in the most strange situations where you are scorching and really want impact procs, or have a Fireblast rotation that would benefit from Ignite. MoE _does_ turn out to be really good if you have the high natural crit rates Frost gives, but not worth 18 points.

3. Soloing without Permafrost < Soloing with Permafrost. If you are kiting in an instance for whatever reason (Karazhan, heroics), you want Permafrost. Not only because it takes noticeably longer for things to reach you, but also because CoC now overlaps.

4. The reduction on CoC cooldown makes it even better for those areas where Frost has a natural advantage.

5. The 5 points I have to put into Arcane are not actually wasted. Having a more reliable Polymorph (breaks less early on heartbeat resist), and have drastically lower threat on my IAE are points well spent in my opinion.

This is not to say that using fire to get MoE is a bad choice. In stand and cast fights like Attumen or whatever it will probably outperform 10/0/51 since 3/5 WC is going to stay up, and with a 35% crit you will probably have more mana in the long run. But you don't get to do ClearCast tricks with AM or anything like that, and you wind up losing some of what makes Deep Frost so appealing - the ability to safely and with very high control kite mobs around. If you don't care about that, what makes the Frost/Fire build better than 40/0/21?

◊ Kalman · 04/08/07, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Antiphonal

I had considered it, actually. I see these problems with it:

1. 3/5 WC is ok-ish. But in movement-intensive fights where you might have to throw a FrB or two at adds, I hate the idea of a WC stack falling off due to bad luck. Since you have other mages relying on you to keep it going, I'd prefer 5/5.

If you're worried about stacks falling off, you can always Lance to roll the stack while moving.

• Arawethion · 04/08/07, 1:06 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

If you're worried about stacks falling off, you can always Lance to roll the stack while moving.

You won't know when it successfully refreshes.

Ghalt · 04/08/07, 3:24 PM

Perhaps Off-topic, but...

I've finally gotten Vontre's spreadsheet. Fantastic work. Yes, I'm obviously behind the times.

There's a great way to compare specs, and to find out the highest DPS spell sequence for a given time period...

...is there a way to test out different spell sequences to see what it's DPS would be, regardless of fight?

For example, I'd love to be able to test:

Arc Blast x 2, Frostbolt X 2, Fireblast (repeat) vs. Arc Blast x 3, Frostbolt x 2, Fireblast (repeat)...

...etc.

Any ideas how to use this excellent tool to do that?

Thanks!

Quixotic · 04/08/07, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

You're overestimating AP/POM's benefit to pyro a bit. You need E(AP POM pyro) - E(1.5s normal casting), basically, to come up with the actual benefit from AP/POM on pyro (same method can be applied to any other spell, though).

(12k? 12000/2.45/1.3 = 3767, so you'd need to have non-crit pyro's for 3800 - is that reachable?)

With full consumables, including flame cap + destruction potion + trinket + ap + pom + pyro was critting for 7k-8k ish on a fully debuffed gruul. This was with a standard 33/28 build.

◊ Kalman · 04/08/07, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by Quixotic

With full consumables, including flame cap + destruction potion + trinket + ap + pom + pyro was critting for 7k-8k ish on a fully debuffed gruul. This was with a standard 33/28 build.

That's with AP. I should have noted the 3800 mark as being prior to AP.

◊ Kalman · 04/08/07, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

You won't know when it successfully refreshes.

You won't know when it successfully refreshes with your frostbolts either; however, if you know you're moving for 12+ seconds, then lances give you a way to toss a couple out and significantly reduce the likelihood of losing the stack.

◊ Vontre · 04/08/07, 5:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ghalt

Perhaps Off-topic, but...

I've finally gotten Vontre's spreadsheet. Fantastic work. Yes, I'm obviously behind the times.

There's a great way to compare specs, and to find out the highest DPS spell sequence for a given time period...

...is there a way to test out different spell sequences to see what it's DPS would be, regardless of fight?

For example, I'd love to be able to test:

Arc Blast x 2, Frostbolt X 2, Fireblast (repeat) vs. Arc Blast x 3, Frostbolt x 2, Fireblast (repeat)...

...etc.

Any ideas how to use this excellent tool to do that?

Thanks!

I'll look into adding that feature in the next release. For a quick and dirty way, go to the Cycles tab and switch off all the cycles except for the one you want to see (it still won't show if it thinks you'll go oom).

Antiphonal · 04/08/07, 8:29 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

You won't know when it successfully refreshes with your frostbolts either; however, if you know you're moving for 12+ seconds, then lances give you a way to toss a couple out and significantly reduce the likelihood of losing the stack.

Yes, but why worry?

In other words, why shave off so many useful points in frost for a talent that _might_ improve mana efficiency if you have 33% or higher crit? Plus have full-threat IAE? Ouch. I die enough as it is.

Geglash · 04/09/07, 9:20 AM

Originally Posted by Kalman

You're overestimating AP/POM's benefit to pyro a bit. You need E(AP POM pyro) - E(1.5s normal casting), basically, to come up with the actual benefit from AP/POM on pyro (same method can be applied to any other spell, though).

(12k? 12000/2.45/1.3 = 3767, so you'd need to have non-crit pyro's for 3800 - is that reachable?)

I ran around with 1251 fire dam yesterday fully potted in my 10/48/3 spec. With a 40/18/3 spec I'd get another 100 from mind mastery at least, 101 from totem and 20-30 from divine spirit. So that's around 1500.
Now I'm not sure on the coefficient on pyroblast, but adding up arcane instability, imp. scorch, curse of elements and misery shouldn't make 3800 hits all that hard to attain considering the max base damage being 1072 on pyroblast.

Assuming a coefficient of 1 on pyroblast (my memory tells me it's higher):
(1072+1500)*1.03*1.15*1.1*1.05 ~= 3519

Then actually adding up the dot damage makes it quite awesome for one single spell.

If anyone knows the actual coefficients for the direct impact and dot damage for pyroblast, do share.

maxi · 04/09/07, 10:25 AM

I was wondering if anyone had good results with scorch spam in raid setting?

EDIT: good results as in more damage done for the whole duration of the fight

◊ Kalman · 04/09/07, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Geglash

I ran around with 1251 fire dam yesterday fully potted in my 10/48/3 spec. With a 40/18/3 spec I'd get another 100 from mind mastery at least, 101 from totem and 20-30 from divine spirit. So that's around 1500.
Now I'm not sure on the coefficient on pyroblast, but adding up arcane instability, imp. scorch, curse of elements and misery shouldn't make 3800 hits all that hard to attain considering the max base damage being 1072 on pyroblast.

Assuming a coefficient of 1 on pyroblast (my memory tells me it's higher):
(1072+1500)*1.03*1.15*1.1*1.05 ~= 3519

Then actually adding up the dot damage makes it quite awesome for one single spell.

If anyone knows the actual coefficients for the direct impact and dot damage for pyroblast, do share.

DoT damage is negligible for this purpose, since it doesn't get the 2.45 ignite/spellpower crit modifier.

eap · 04/09/07, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by Vontre

I'll look into adding that feature in the next release. For a quick and dirty way, go to the Cycles tab and switch off all the cycles except for the one you want to see (it still won't show if it thinks you'll go oom).

Vonte, would you be so kind as to add a total damage column to the Spells list on the Main Sheet? My current guilds raid make-up fluctuates enough that I cannot pre-determine how long a perticular encounter will take. I believe it would be highly beneficial for me to know what my theoretical damage done up to OOM. For a specific example, in case I'm unclear, by default when I download mage_dps.xls, Fireball spam is 830dps at 6m28s for a total of 322,040 damage done, and scorch spam is 688dps at 24m29s for 1,010,672 damage done. (I'm also curious, even though I may run out of mana during an encounter, would I actually do more damage by OOM, then if I had conserved my mana?)

◊ Vontre · 04/09/07, 1:57 PM

Originally Posted by eap

Vonte, would you be so kind as to add a total damage column to the Spells list on the Main Sheet? My current guilds raid make-up fluctuates enough that I cannot pre-determine how long a perticular encounter will take. I believe it would be highly beneficial for me to know what my theoretical damage done up to OOM. For a specific example, in case I'm unclear, by default when I download mage_dps.xls, Fireball spam is 830dps at 6m28s for a total of 322,040 damage done, and scorch spam is 688dps at 24m29s for 1,010,672 damage done. (I'm also curious, even though I may run out of mana during an encounter, would I actually do more damage by OOM, then if I had conserved my mana?)

That implementation seems easy enough.

More damage by going oom? Maybe if you cut it close. Can't be sure... I would need a setting for wand dps to test that I think.

◊ Vontre · 04/09/07, 1:57 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

DoT damage is negligible for this purpose, since it doesn't get the 2.45 ignite/spellpower crit modifier.

The dot easily adds over 1000 damage to the spell, and is affected by arcane power (I assume), it's not neglible.

eap · 04/09/07, 2:18 PM

Originally Posted by Vontre

The dot easily adds over 1000 damage to the spell, and is affected by arcane power (I assume), it's not neglible.

I'm thinking he is referring to the Pyroblast Dot not the Ignite Dot.

Pryoblast (Rank 9) Dot is listed as 324 damage over 12 seconds. Are there any modifiers for the Dot?

◊ Vontre · 04/09/07, 2:22 PM

Originally Posted by eap

I'm thinking he is referring to the Pyroblast Dot not the Ignite Dot.

Pryoblast (Rank 9) Dot is listed as 324 damage over 12 seconds. Are there any modifiers for the Dot?

Ummm... I think so? Maybe my guess was a bit off. A bit really off. At any rate, it still makes a difference.

Edit: I remember hearing 75% spell damage, any confirmation?

duostrike · 04/09/07, 2:25 PM

Originally Posted by eap

I'm thinking he is referring to the Pyroblast Dot not the Ignite Dot.

Pryoblast (Rank 9) Dot is listed as 324 damage over 12 seconds. Are there any modifiers for the Dot?

It scales with +damage and AP.

Arkest · 04/09/07, 6:31 PM

Originally Posted by eap

I'm thinking he is referring to the Pyroblast Dot not the Ignite Dot.

Pryoblast (Rank 9) Dot is listed as 324 damage over 12 seconds. Are there any modifiers for the Dot?

Pyroblast has a 115% spell damage coefficient on the direct damage, and a 20% coefficient on the DoT.

See Damage coefficients

Jayde · 04/10/07, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by Northerner

Outfitter (and Itemrack I assume) have event triggers for Evocation and many other things. It's not perfect but it works.

Yes, ItemRack has an Evoc event which works rather handily. I use triple Level 70 req greens of Spirit (Warpdagger, Orb, and Wand) and it makes an absolutely huge difference. It's pretty trivial to set up the swap in ItemRack.

I'd say that any Mage should do it. There's no reason not to, and it yields massive increases in mana gain from Evoc.