Pendant of the Violet Eye - How to put it to good use? is the math for the old one, using 14 mana/5.

If you have low lag and can get it to a 12 stack, that thread suggests it would regenerate 594.4 mana on use. Over a 9 minute fight under optimal conditions (comparing it to the real life testing earlier in the thread) it would give back about 2,974 mana, or 300 mana more than the Mark of Defiance. The conclusion would be that Mark of Defiance would be the better trinket for mana regen and DPS, due to the +damage it has and the ease of use (proc vs on-use lag dependent item).

+hit > +dmg? I don't buy it except for +dmg values over a certain threshold, exactly as with +crit. It's easy to see, just model what you'd get starting naked then adding a little bit of +hit and then compare to a little bit of +dmg.

As 33/28 with ~800dmg, 8% hit, 27% crit, 1 hit rating is worth +0.95dmg for me.

Get something like SuperCast mod to help you know when to stopcasting.

Than make a macro for your nuke:
e.g.
/stopcasting
/cast Fireball

When your cast bar gets in the red, press the macro.

Works fine for me. Although if I get a bit excited and hit it early I will interupt the fireball too early and lose a cast. I only really use the macro when it is a fairly straight foward tank and spank fight, as using the macro requires me to stare at my castbar.

deleted: too slow

Supercast doesnt work for me and afaik i have the 0815 wow Castbar, out of date addons are activated, any suggestions?
nvm, now it works

Feels stupid to ask here - but while we're on the topic of Supercast: Is there anyone who gets Supercast + eCastingbar to work together?

I've been using cast-bar addon called "CBRipoff" and latency estimator addon called "RapidCast", both are available from wowace. Try them with the already mentioned macro and you'll definetely see improvements against Dr. Boom.

I also have non-estimated castbar in my agUF unitframes, and I can definetely see the difference between castbars.

Works fine for me, latest versions of the two from curse.

To those asking about crit% vs. dmg:

download Vontre's Mage DPS Excel Spreadsheet. (search for it in the topics, or find one of his posts).

He's got an item compare section that will, after you plug in all your numbers, allow you to compare one item to another and see how it impacts your dps on different spells.

I did this with gems and found that, surprisingly, +dmg was better than +crit% even for a fire mage. The difference was negligible, but still...that's the best way to find out for YOU based on your gear/spec.

Having said that.....


From what I'm reading, Ignites will ROLL/STACK again post 2.1, for a player's own ignites. In other words, you can't keep each other's ignites rolling, but you can roll your own.

That would seem to me to shift the equation toward crit% for a fire mage.

You have some screenshots with time stamped combat logs or vids? Interested in how it is exactly working.

I have been hearing the same thing in other places, but most mages don't have a clue as to what rolling ignites even mean. (They didn't even know when it was working) So I just assumed it was bunch of wow forum idiots posting or maybe blizz fixed the simultainious crit issue and the same group of people thought that equaled rolling.

Where did you read this? Last time I checked though on the ptr ignite hadn't changed. Perhaps I wasn't paying enough attention to it. I'll check tonight to see if they actually roll.

This isn't based on any new data on the PTR or anything, couldn't find specific details about this so I decided to post.

I've been playing a 40/0/21 pve spec for a while now and I just recently got to wondering what the optimal crit to damage ratio is.

A lot of fights, especially those with movement or no real mana concerns tend to push me to using only frostbolt. This issue is exacerbated by the fact that I have a set of frozen shadoweave. I started doing some calculations the other day with the following assumptions:

Frostbolt scaling (s) ~ 0.707
Crit Multiplier (cm) = 1.5 (additional)
+spell damage (dam) = variable
crit percentage (cp) = variable
base damage = 620 (average)

Average Frostbolt Damage = base + s*dam + 1.5*cp*(base + s*dam)

I also looked at the budgeting of spell damage and spell crit, based on the values present on red and yellow gems (this may not be entirely accurate).

+9 spell damage = +8 spell crit rating
22.1 spell crit rating = 1% spell crit @70

+1 spell damage ~ 0.0402% spell crit @70 (in terms of item budgets)

------------------

I used a grid of spell damage and spell crit in the Frostbolt average damage formula to develop a contour for average damage.

I then constructed rings of constant 'item value', ie. all spell crit / spell damage combinations that lie on a ring have the same item value.

Interpolating values of Average Frostbolt damage that lie on an item value ring and finding the maximum should show the optimal crit/damage combination.

Additional assumptions:
6% base spellcrit and 6% from instability/potency are 'free'
~112 spell damage from a (mind mastery improved) int of 450 is 'free'

The graphical results:


Shows that you should have about 0.035 of your spell damage as crit %.

Does this seem right?

Any thoughts on this:

Ashtongue Talisman of Insight
Equip: Your spell critical strikes have a 50% chance to grant you 130 spell haste rating for 5 sec.

http://www.wowhead.com/?faction=1012#00zc

Looks super-hot to me. Like how I was mentioning that arcane build earlier with the 36% crit rate and the nexus-horn/epic equivalent? Replace nexus horn with this baby. Basically an 18% proc rate with a build designed totally around fast-casting spells - that's insane.

Picture this - you get a clearcast proc, wind up arcane missiles. With arcane potency, each missiles has a 60% (!!!) crit rate. Basically guaranteed proc on this, nexus-horn, and T5 4-piece bonus. Then the new arcane missiles go faster thanks to the haster changes. This kind of shit makes me want to raid again. Damn you talent spec system for making me choose between pvp and arcane dps!!

I'm too lazy to theorycraft it right now, though.

My initial reaction was that this is terrible. Thanks.

The real question is, how much haste rating is 130, and how bad is the hidden cooldown? I understand they were doing some nerf on haste rating overall but I have no verified information.

The trinket is terrible.

Needs a passive. That's the reason why Quag's was so OP'ed, 37 damage *with* the awesome spell haste proc.

130 spell haste is nothing post 2.1.

Hmmm, what you say is true
I see the analysis on this matter is far from over

This leads to a very curious result by the way. Since 33/28/0 spec benefits can pretty much focus on +dam/crit to the exclusion of +hit, just how good would Magmadar's Eye be for it then?

Ok, finally I managed to read through *all* of this thread up to the last page. Then I downloaded the spreadsheet and tried it out.
Minor error I noticed: Sethekk Oracle Cloak has +12 spell hit, not +12 spell crit as listed in the gear selector.
Then: Ring of the Fallen God is not in the gear selector, though I still find it better than all the other rings available for a number of fights (that use the +hit and don't need heavy stamina).
No problem, I corrected the cloak and added the ring myself.
Then: The gear selector absolutely insists on me having the "Spellfire 3" and "Mana-Etched 2" bonus although I didn't select any items of those sets. Well, I just killed the formula for those fields and wrote "FALSE".
Ok, so it gives me 917 dps for Frostbolt spam with my 40/0/21 build at 330k total dmg, and 1055 dps for 3x AB 2x FB cycle with 380k total. Now what I really would like to see is
1) How much dpm do I have with different spell usage / rotations?
2) What's my dps with a 2x AB 2x FB cycle? What's my dpm?
3) I really would like an Nx AB 3x FB cycle implemented. I have been maintaining a 2x AB 3x FrB cycle for almost all of Gruul and Magtheridon yesterday, it really *is* doable with SuperCast, eCB and /stopcasting-macros

Otherwise, big thanks for this great and one-look-says-all spreadsheet

edit: another question
4) When I switch "Mana Regen Consumables" to yes on the Main Sheet, it tells me that all my total dmg for fireball, scorch etc. goes up, but my total frostbolt damage stays exactly the same (the time goes up for alle spells). Also the arcane blast cycle stays the same in total damage. Why?
edit: yet another big one
5) Did you account for level-based non-penetrable resists? Based on posts like this one (although it's quite old), I assume lvl73 mobs have 24 innate resistance vs everything that is not binary. Which means that arcane hits, arcane crits and fire hits get shaved at least 5% of their damage (70 resistance is 15% mitigation at lvl 70, so 24 is 24/70*15% = 5.1429...%) in unmitigable level-based partial resists, while frost doesn't suffer from this problem due to frostbolt being binary and by some strange quirk in the game mechanics obviously not affected by those special resists. This also means that fire crits suffer twice, practically double-dipping on damage loss, because you only get an ignite from the non-resisted, non-absorbed damage, and then the ignite ticks can be partially resisted again, lowering the ignite to around 0.95*0.95=0.9025 of normal damage, meaning a fire crit gets 0.95*1.5*x+0.9025*0.6*x = 1.9665x, or 196.65% (instead of 210%) of normal hit damage for deep fire without spell power, or 0.95*1.75*x+0.9025*0.7*x = 2.29425x, or 229.425% (instead of 245%) of normal hit damage for arcane/fire with spell power. That's how I always did it in my spreadsheets at least, but none of them are as elaborated as yours of course, and I do not know for sure what exactly the level-based resists 70 vs 73 are.

-------------------

Now, for something more general and to contribute to theorycrafting:
I could not help but notice that with an Arcane Blast cycle and using a lag indicator on your castingbar and /stopcasting-macros, you do not get the full Arcane Blast lesser casting time benefit.
For example:
I start casting AB 1.
Shortly before it is graphically finished, I cut into the cast with my /stopcasting macro and start casting AB 2. This works and cuts me down some 100-200ms, BUT I lose the benefit of 0.33s less casting time on AB 2 due to the debuff not being up on me when I start the cast. Thus I actually lose casting time when using the /stopcasting macro to cut into casting time when ramping up arcane blasts.
Now, the overlap AB at the beginning of a new cycle obviously doesn't have that problem, it is just AB 2 (and, if used, AB 3 too) that looses the benefit of 0.33s shorter casting time and having to pay the full ramped up +75% mana (due to the debuff being up when I finish the cast).

I found two ways to circumvent this problem.

1. Just let the cast finish normally and wait a very short time before starting the cast of your next Arcane Blast (2 + maybe 3) when ramping them up at the beginning of cycles. This is also the time to use mana gems / mana potions / trinkets / ap / other cooldowns, as that ensures that you actually have the debuff up for the next Arcane Blast. That's actually quite useful, because using /stopcasting-macros doesn't give you the time to use those otherwise in your rotations.

2. Use a rotation like AB, FrB, AB, (FrB, AB,) FrB, FrB, FrB. Or, if you cannot manage to fit in 3 Frostbolts like me, AB, FrB, AB, (FrB, AB,) FrB, FrB.

In reality now I usually alter between those two solutions, depending on whether or not there is a cooldown to use (then using solution 1) or not (then using solution 2).

What do you think of this? How much do you figure solution 2 negatively impacts dps and/or dpm?

I hope they at least lowered the hidden cooldown. It seems very lacklustre otherwise (but then again, most trinkets are pretty meh, nothing really stands out, which seems to be a shame, homogenisation is pretty dull).

I was kind of unsatisfied, not having found an answer in this thread or any spreadsheet, so I decided to settle the matter for myself and did some rather extensive (and very tiring) tests on Dr. Boom.

Goal: To test (almost) every possible spell cycle of arcane / frost

This is without my hitgear of course. Selfbuffed, 514 int, 183 spi, +915 spelldmg gear, +1043 dmg with MM, 67 hit rating (too much, I know, but couldn't reduce it further), 264 crit rating, this spec. Activated Icon of the Silver Crescent whenever once, arcane power used once (continuing normal rotation unless otherwise mentioned), no mana gems, no consumables, mage armor, other trinket is Mark of Defiance. Emptied one mana bar (9671 mana). Three tries for each cycle / approach. My latency according to necb was between 80-164ms all the time, so the impact of /stopcasting is not that big here.

Frostboltspam with stopcasting:
858.0 dps 93,869 dmg
855.0 dps 99,866 dmg
770.9 dps 92,986 dmg (accidentally cancelled 1 frostbolt too early, so i decided I'd do another round: )
864.9 dps 90,473 dmg
avg 859.3 dps, disregarding the "failed" attempt

Frostboltspam without stopcasting:
744.3 dps 88,897 dmg
846.2 dps 99,966 dmg
776.2 dps 102,816 dmg
avg 788.9 dps, ~8.2% worse than using stopcasting with perfect execution

3x AB 3x FB cycle with stopcasting and AB-Spam while AP up, waiting after 1st and 2nd AB for debuff:
989.4 dps 58,391 dmg
851.1 dps 54,456 dmg
991.4 dps 63,962 dmg
avg 944.0 dps, this obviously depends a lot on crit luck during AP AB-spam and is very mana inefficient, but provides extreme burst for situations as Magtheridon banished etc.

2x AB 3x FB cycle with stopcasting, waiting after 1st AB for debuff:
926.8 dps 149,004 dmg
889.2 dps 102,533 dmg
877.8 dps 193,595 dmg
avg 898.0 dps, obviously better dps *and* dpm than frostboltspam, combined with much lower threat. ~61% of my dmg here is from frostbolt, 39% from arcane blast, meaning 78,3% damage is threat instead of 90% for frostboltspam.

2x AB 3x FB cycle with stopcasting, this time not waiting for the AB debuff to apply to AB 2, but cutting into casting time:
886.7 dps 101,969 dmg
818.8 dps 90,112 dmg
785.0 dps 87,921 dmg (decided to do another round due to high variance: )
818.3 dps 95,836 dmg
avg 827.2 dps, worse than waiting after 1st AB for the debuff, and I messed up and had to discard many more test runs for some reason.

3x AB 2x FB cycle without stopcasting:
789.9 dps 78,161 dmg
712.7 dps 59,097 dmg
752.5 dps 69,813 dmg
avg 751.7 dps and miserable dpm. Worst cycle overall (although the only AB/FrB-cycle included in Vontre's spreadsheet :-/)

3x AB 3x FB cycle with stopcasting, waiting after 1st and 2nd AB for debuff:
821.1 dps 80,818 dmg
851.4 dps 75,918 dmg
778.1 dps 74,212 dmg
avg 817.9 dps, clearly worse dps *and* dpm than 2x AB 3x FB. Don't ask me why, I expected it to at least have better dps. I guess having to wait two times after AB 1 and 2 for the debuff eats into the dps.

3x AB 3x FB cycle with stopcasting, this time not waiting for the AB debuff to apply to AB 2 and 3, but cutting into casting time:
868.3 dps 87,767 dmg
842.9 dps 74,255 dmg
931.8 dps 80,499 dmg (decided to do one more tests due to high variance: )
817.4 dps 62,940 dmg
avg 865.1 dps, strange, but clearly better than waiting for the AB debuff. Still worse than 2x AB 3x FB though in both respects (dps and dpm).

AB FB AB 3x FB cycle with stopcasting so you always take advantage of the AB debuff being up at the start of an AB cast:
828.3 dps 89,674 dmg
814.3 dps 86,966 dmg
763.1 dps 89,357 dmg
avg 801.9 dps, worse than 2x AB 3x FB with waiting after the first AB.

AB FB AB FB AB 3x FB cycle with stopcasting:
899.1 dps 88,904 dmg
880.7 dps 111,607 dmg
831.2 dps 71,187 dmg
avg 870.3 dps, around the same as 3x AB 3x FB without waiting.

Obviously the small sample size here allows lots of variance because of clearcast procs, spellstrike set bonus procs, mark of defiance procs, crits and resists, but you can see the tendencies. Some cycles really suck while others are clearly superior.
I would really appreciate having some of the best cycles, especially 2x AB 3x FB, included in your spreadsheet, Vontre

The difference when using a stopcasting macro and not is so huge. Something really needs to be done about it.