Agreed. I think the concensus is that 11/40 blows 19/32 out of the water from what I hear from beta testers.
Any input what the best dagger spec is (my guess is it is still 15/31/5) and how it fares compared to 11/40/0?
I'm guessing it'll be 15/31/5 over 11/40/0 (CP is nice, but a 15% increase in energy supply doesn't beat out a 20% increase in DPE), but my real question is: 15/31/5, or 41/0/5 +5?
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Agreed. I think the concensus is that 11/40 blows 19/32 out of the water from what I hear from beta testers.
Any input what the best dagger spec is (my guess is it is still 15/31/5) and how it fares compared to 11/40/0?
I'm guessing it'll be 15/31/5 over 11/40/0 (CP is nice, but a 15% increase in energy supply doesn't beat out a 20% increase in DPE), but my real question is: 15/31/5, or 41/0/5 +5?
Depends if 40 debuff limit and deadly poison change make it to 1.13 or not for me. In that case i will go 46/0/5 or 44/2/5.
Any input what the best dagger spec is (my guess is it is still 15/31/5) and how it fares compared to 11/40/0?
I'm guessing it'll be 15/31/5 over 11/40/0 (CP is nice, but a 15% increase in energy supply doesn't beat out a 20% increase in DPE), but my real question is: 15/31/5, or 41/0/5 +5?
Depends if 40 debuff limit and deadly poison change make it to 1.13 or not for me. In that case i will go 46/0/5 or 44/2/5.
Even if they don't make it in, since the Mutilate condition is poisoned, not necessarily by you, a Serpent Sting on the mob would be enough to trigger the bonus.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Any input what the best dagger spec is (my guess is it is still 15/31/5) and how it fares compared to 11/40/0?
I'm guessing it'll be 15/31/5 over 11/40/0 (CP is nice, but a 15% increase in energy supply doesn't beat out a 20% increase in DPE), but my real question is: 15/31/5, or 41/0/5 +5?
I probably did not formulate my question precisely enough. What I really was interested in was how big the gap between 15/31/5 combat dagger and 11/40/0 combat sword is, since 15/31/5 basically stays the same, but 11/40/0 seems to gain a bit compared to the old 18/33/0.
Any input what the best dagger spec is (my guess is it is still 15/31/5) and how it fares compared to 11/40/0?
I'm guessing it'll be 15/31/5 over 11/40/0 (CP is nice, but a 15% increase in energy supply doesn't beat out a 20% increase in DPE), but my real question is: 15/31/5, or 41/0/5 +5?
I probably did not formulate my question precisely enough. What I really was interested in was how big the gap between 15/31/5 combat dagger and 11/40/0 combat sword is, since 15/31/5 basically stays the same, but 11/40/0 seems to gain a bit compared to the old 18/33/0.
Input on 41/0/5+5 would also be nice, of course.
Good question.
I still wonder if Assasination can beat out combat at 70 for daggers though. Personally I hope it falls short enough behind that serious raiding rogues will be combat specced regardless of their weapons. Mainly because I feel that in order to maintain real PvE progression, it's only fair that the entire raid be gimped for PvP (although some classes maintain luxuries that rogues do not in this case). But that's another thread imo.
I'm guessing it'll be 15/31/5 over 11/40/0 (CP is nice, but a 15% increase in energy supply doesn't beat out a 20% increase in DPE), but my real question is: 15/31/5, or 41/0/5 +5?
Depends if 40 debuff limit and deadly poison change make it to 1.13 or not for me. In that case i will go 46/0/5 or 44/2/5.
Even if they don't make it in, since the Mutilate condition is poisoned, not necessarily by you, a Serpent Sting on the mob would be enough to trigger the bonus.
That's true, however i won't spend 10 points in poison talents just to have them get pushed off. The DPS gain is only significant when you can use instant+deadly really.
Also being able to use longer ruptures in your cycle depends on debuff limit too.
Depends if 40 debuff limit and deadly poison change make it to 1.13 or not for me. In that case i will go 46/0/5 or 44/2/5.
Even if they don't make it in, since the Mutilate condition is poisoned, not necessarily by you, a Serpent Sting on the mob would be enough to trigger the bonus.
That's true, however i won't spend 10 points in poison talents just to have them get pushed off. The DPS gain is only significant when you can use instant+deadly really.
Also being able to use longer ruptures in your cycle depends on debuff limit too.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Any input what the best dagger spec is (my guess is it is still 15/31/5) and how it fares compared to 11/40/0?
I'm guessing it'll be 15/31/5 over 11/40/0 (CP is nice, but a 15% increase in energy supply doesn't beat out a 20% increase in DPE), but my real question is: 15/31/5, or 41/0/5 +5?
I probably did not formulate my question precisely enough. What I really was interested in was how big the gap between 15/31/5 combat dagger and 11/40/0 combat sword is, since 15/31/5 basically stays the same, but 11/40/0 seems to gain a bit compared to the old 18/33/0.
Input on 41/0/5+5 would also be nice, of course.
I see 11/40 edging out 15/31/5 by a few dps.
With absolute best gear possible and kingsfall/harbinger, I get unbuffed dps of 678.94.
With the same gear and now Gresil/iblis with 11/40, I get and unbuffed dps of 681.97.
Now, that shows 15/31/5 almost even with 11/40. Removing the stats on gressil/iblis and using the same stats as kingsfall/harbinger I get: 687.8 for swords. That is a 10 dps difference, which would be even bigger without the 4/9 bs bonus. Add to the fact that swords are better on trash mobs, there is no real reason to play 15/31/5 if you have equivalent swords and daggers.
With absolute best gear possible and kingsfall/harbinger, I get unbuffed dps of 678.94.
With the same gear and now Gresil/iblis with 11/40, I get and unbuffed dps of 681.97.
Now, that shows 15/31/5 almost even with 11/40. Removing the stats on gressil/iblis and using the same stats as kingsfall/harbinger I get: 687.8 for swords. That is a 10 dps difference, which would be even bigger without the 4/9 bs bonus. Add to the fact that swords are better on trash mobs, there is no real reason to play 15/31/5 if you have equivalent swords and daggers.
At least this should be fixed once we have the expansion, when 15/31/5 can upgrade to 15/41/5, while all 11/40/0 can do is to upgrade to 20/41/0. Or am I missing something?
Would it be possible to see the calculations you were using?
I'm guessing it'll be 15/31/5 over 11/40/0 (CP is nice, but a 15% increase in energy supply doesn't beat out a 20% increase in DPE), but my real question is: 15/31/5, or 41/0/5 +5?
I probably did not formulate my question precisely enough. What I really was interested in was how big the gap between 15/31/5 combat dagger and 11/40/0 combat sword is, since 15/31/5 basically stays the same, but 11/40/0 seems to gain a bit compared to the old 18/33/0.
Input on 41/0/5+5 would also be nice, of course.
I see 11/40 edging out 15/31/5 by a few dps.
With absolute best gear possible and kingsfall/harbinger, I get unbuffed dps of 678.94.
With the same gear and now Gresil/iblis with 11/40, I get and unbuffed dps of 681.97.
Now, that shows 15/31/5 almost even with 11/40. Removing the stats on gressil/iblis and using the same stats as kingsfall/harbinger I get: 687.8 for swords. That is a 10 dps difference, which would be even bigger without the 4/9 bs bonus. Add to the fact that swords are better on trash mobs, there is no real reason to play 15/31/5 if you have equivalent swords and daggers.
What dps values do you get for 11/40 with R14 claw MH/ Sapphiron OH ?
At least this should be fixed once we have the expansion, when 15/31/5 can upgrade to 15/41/5, while all 11/40/0 can do is to upgrade to 20/41/0. Or am I missing something?
Would it be possible to see the calculations you were using?
Right, daggers have a lot more room to upgrade while swords wont be able to pick up as much. I really wish there were alternatives to 20/41 and 15/31/5, but there really arent. 41/20 might be close, but I havent finished up my data on that yet. If we could have strong 15-25 assassination talent points and strong 5-15 subtetly talent points, there would be a lot more diversity in builds, but combat potency is so strong that nothing will come close to rivaling it.
Originally Posted by Kjaska
What dps values do you get for 11/40 with R14 claw MH/ Sapphiron OH ?
I am running a 15/41/5, and I really do not like the damage it is offering. Furthermore, the instance setups are not designed to allow a rogue to do consistent, sustained dps. A lot of mobs move, you've got to reassist on the healer to pull that mob off, bosses knock back or MC or fear or .. etc etc etc. I'm currently using a Hybrid build:
The instance design really, in my opinion, strives to break the mold that raiding rogues are in. I have not yet hit the 10 man instancs, and I don't know if they're sustained DPS friendly, but the above Hemo build is doing the same damage (overall at the end of the instance, per Beta Recap) as a Combat Potency build. Combat Potency procs a lot (I'm currently at 243 hit rating with most of my old gear around, using Harbinger offhand) but when the mob moves, or we switch targets, it loses a lot of its oomph.
Don't get me wrong, when I face a mob and I'm able to pop my +172 ap trink (+27 hit rating as well) along with BF, have SnD, AR going (currently at 1200ap unbuffed), I can hit 700-800 dps without flinching. It just doesn't happen often, and is situational at best in the 5mans. Looking back at 5mans in the past, I guess that sits right. The endgame raids may accommodate for the sustained dps rogues.
Quite frankly, I'd rather enjoy the option to switch to a Hybrid / Off build to still perform the same as a Combat Daggers, with the added utility of Prep and it's bag of tricks. It's fun to provide support, to be the glue in a good group.
Combat daggers, or more specifically, 60 energy CPs have always been awefull for 5 man instances. Even for Naxx I found the inflexible nature of combat daggers quite annoying. Combat Potency really doesn't seem like it's going to work too well with a backstab driven build, you just give up way too much. Perhaps 6 months after BC is released we will see it back on top, but at least for leveling, 5, and 10 man instances I think we'd be much better off with mutilate, suprise attacks with swords/maces, or hemo builds. I for one will never go back to 60nrg CPs, no matter the marginal DPS gain.
Fast OH dagger makes Combat Potency go nuts. But yea, combat daggers is meant for bigger raids, 10 man+. It's never been good for solo grinding, 5 mans, or trash mobs for that matter. I plan on using combat daggers once my guild starts raiding at 70, but until then I plan on leveling with swords/maces/fist (whatever I get my grubby fingers on).
Combat daggers, or more specifically, 60 energy CPs have always been awefull for 5 man instances. Even for Naxx I found the inflexible nature of combat daggers quite annoying. Combat Potency really doesn't seem like it's going to work too well with a backstab driven build, you just give up way too much. Perhaps 6 months after BC is released we will see it back on top, but at least for leveling, 5, and 10 man instances I think we'd be much better off with mutilate, suprise attacks with swords/maces, or hemo builds. I for one will never go back to 60nrg CPs, no matter the marginal DPS gain.
I've been talking about this for a while now within my guild. Even up to the 25 man raids (whenever they do come out). If you can bring 3-4 rogues on a raid, do you want rogues that can do well on all fights, or rogues that can do marginally well only on stand still fights. Naxx provides great insight into where Blizzard is taking boss fights (more interaction, more movement required). This really plays to the strengths of swords/claws/maces. I know it'll really change who gets invited to certain groups if you are going to have to sinister strike spam with a Kingsfall.
Yeah, I know, CD with Hemo is supposedly the lose (read up on the guide where someone explained why), though I've played with several builds. I haven't yet used my Empyrean Demolisher / Vis'Kag / any other decent 1h (I'm CD by nature, so I haven't collected "Hemo friendly" item). I did change the build several times, so the one I linked was the general split of Assassination / Combat / Subtlety. I have literally respeccd between the 3 trying to find a nice Hemo more than 15 times. My thinking is if you have a solid combat build, you're adding more damage to fast swinging weapons, in hopes compensating for the large damage lacking with a good sword. The point I failed to realize until recently is that, while Sinister Strike / Backstab damage is normalized at a "standard" weapon speed * max damage of item, Hemo may not be.
Am I understanding that correctly? Hemo is different and simply adds the damage on top of the damage done by the instant attack, different than Sinister Strike / Backstab? I've never really dipped into Hemo.
Combat daggers, or more specifically, 60 energy CPs have always been awefull for 5 man instances. Even for Naxx I found the inflexible nature of combat daggers quite annoying. Combat Potency really doesn't seem like it's going to work too well with a backstab driven build, you just give up way too much. Perhaps 6 months after BC is released we will see it back on top, but at least for leveling, 5, and 10 man instances I think we'd be much better off with mutilate, suprise attacks with swords/maces, or hemo builds. I for one will never go back to 60nrg CPs, no matter the marginal DPS gain.
I've been talking about this for a while now within my guild. Even up to the 25 man raids (whenever they do come out). If you can bring 3-4 rogues on a raid, do you want rogues that can do well on all fights, or rogues that can do marginally well only on stand still fights. Naxx provides great insight into where Blizzard is taking boss fights (more interaction, more movement required). This really plays to the strengths of swords/claws/maces. I know it'll really change who gets invited to certain groups if you are going to have to sinister strike spam with a Kingsfall.
The only fights in Naxx (caveat: ignoring Sapph/KT not having seen them yet, although I'll get my first Sapph attempts tonight) that really favor swords over daggers are Thaddius (enforced positioning sucks) and Loatheb (the buff is a lot better for swords than daggers).
Razuvious, Maexxna, Patchwerk, Grobbulus, Faerlina, Anub'rekhan, Noth, Heigan, Gluth, all of these are fights which more or less favor daggers, in that positioning isn't really an issue that hurts daggers.
Gothik is arguable - while swords have the advantage of not requiring positioning, daggers can do respectably well because you're refilling your energy so often. We've found having one sword rogue around to "tank" trainees while the dagger rogues burst them down works quite well.
4H, again, it's arguable, but I'd say there's no particular advantage to being a sword rogue here.
People forget that a sustained fight doesn't necessarily have to be Patchwerk.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Counterarguments can be made for most Naxx fights. Patch, Raz, and Maexx are the only ones I consider totally CDaggers friendly. It wins in others just because of the strength of the build, not because the fight favors it. Positioning is hardly ever the issue. Efficiently using combo points is. I cannot even begin to enumerate the number of relentless procs I missed out on playing combat daggers, or essentially on any fight without 100% "stick" time. I guess I just feel bad for people that will feel pressured into 15/41/5 builds next patch. They are missing out on so much just to eek out an extra couple % on what I consider the most boring shit in the game for a dps class, aka patchwerk fights. I just don't see how people can enjoy the playstyle, the lack of PVP viability, and the completely inflexible finisher choice.
You're insane if you think 15/31/5 can't PvP. I'd rather PvP as 15/31/5 than as combat swords, which is the only real competitor for raid damage.
All the fights I listed are perfectly friendly to combat daggers (how can you ignore Heigan, for example? Just because you're moving doesn't mean you don't have ~100% time on target. Faerlina, Anubrekhan? Yeah, you switch targets, but not constantly. Grobbulus, depending on how melee switches to deal with spawns, is basically 100% time on target as well. You're ignoring time on target because you confuse it with time spent moving). Combo point efficiency doesn't really come into play on most of those fights, because there's no problem settling into a 5 CP SnD rotation where most of your SnD time is used on a target.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
PvPing as Combat Swords is basically the art of the Suicide Bomber. Sometimes you can use a bit of finesse, but you really just try to overpower things and use your cooldowns intelligently among as many as possible to cause as much confusion and damage before you die.
I've gotten pretty good at it, but you really do end up flinging yourself into dangerous situations and just hoping luck goes your way.
I will give combat potency one thing, however, it really provides swords with a lot of burst damage. I didn't have to end up relying on AR/BF as much to take down packs of people, just more intelligent target choosing.
23:40:55> [Illidan Stormrage's] [Shear] was blocked by [Castille].
Yes, swords with a human, and guessing windfury too but I have no direct experience with that, made swords almost as much damage as daggers. Almost.
With the human skill bonus I had swords and daggers within 2-3% of eachother at the gear levels I was looking at. Without the human advantage I'm not seeing swords keep up well though.
The reason daggers have become the overwhelming choice of raiding rogues recently is the lack of +sword itemization(and sword itemization as well). A dagger rogue will hold a nice 30-40dps edge with similar gear, but once you count +skill gear, that lead jumps to 60+dps or almost 10%. A 10% difference is enough of a difference for me to use daggers over swords, and I'm sure it is for most people.
Also, the 2.0 patch is really going to shift the pendulum. All of a sudden, +skill is irrelevant and the difference between daggers and swords at equivalent gear levels is nil. Why be combat daggers when you can have the exact same dps on typical sustained fights, but have better dps on atypical fights like thaddius and fights where you switch targets a lot allowing for more efficient cp use? The only problem with this of course is that most rogues will be stuck with AQR/CTS or MSA as their weapon of choice, which both are clearly inferior to the fairly easy to obtain Fang/sting.
I have AQR and Iblis, our other sword rogue has CTS and Maladath. Gear is going to be an issue for me, and a huge issue for the other one. He has always kinda sucked for damage though because he is a gnome not a human. Patch helped there, but Maladath is no Iblis offhand.
I really don't want to pull this too far away from the thread's purpose but I really have to know. Are Death's Sting and BS ring the same come the patch? I'm assuming yes which means there is little point in upgrading from Fang and BoN Exalted, but I'd like to know.
11/24/06, 5:25 PM
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