I think most of the "other" dagger specs are doing fine - Mut has its flavor, it's really just combat daggers which needs a little boost - in which case, there's a few different things that could be done.
1) Add a flat 1% per point increase in damage done with daggers to dagger spec (COULD be overpowered, but might not be - is also a bit low in the tree for as powerful a talent as that would be ... also give this to fist)
2) Add backstab to Agression? +6% more backstab damage would be less than the above, but this would also make the back end of the combat tree a LOT busier for dagger rogues, but would mostly eat up 3 of the 'flavor' points that combat builds have - not a bad thing.
I think most of the "other" dagger specs are doing fine - Mut has its flavor, it's really just combat daggers which needs a little boost - in which case, there's a few different things that could be done.
The reason I included Mutilate in the discussion is that there are a lot more possible ways to boost its dps without effecting other combat builds. For example if imp backstab was changed to effect mutilate aswell. (would almost certainly need to be a reduced %) Or increasing the damage boost of Find Weakness. The only real problem with buffing Mutilate damage output is balancing for PvP.
The reason I included Mutilate in the discussion is that there are a lot more possible ways to boost its dps without effecting other combat builds. For example if imp backstab was changed to effect mutilate aswell. (would almost certainly need to be a reduced %) Or increasing the damage boost of Find Weakness. The only real problem with buffing Mutilate damage output is balancing for PvP.
With Mutilate I think the vast majority of it's issues is the requirement of the mob being poisoned in order to get to it's true damage potential. Mutilate shouldn't be comparable PVE DPS to combat builds in my opinion (and I say this as a current 41/20/0 rogue), but making Mutilate rogues a handicap against poison immune bosses is just too much. Mutilate is a hybrid spec, and as such it doesn't need to be equal to Combat Swords in PVE situations or else everybody would be Mutilate.
Combat Daggers, on the other hand, needs real love. Mutilate would be fine with just the one tweak I mention, Combat Daggers needs a serious look and possible overhaul.
As an idea, something like a 2% armor reduction per talent point would (@10% armor reduced) give a 2.5% physical dps increase on bosses (7000 armor as in the sheet). Combine this with adding Backstab to Aggression and you pretty much bridge the gap between CDags and Swords, I think. That said, I would still switch to swords if nothing else than for the simplified cycle and less "You must be behind your target" error messages.
With Mutilate I think the vast majority of it's issues is the requirement of the mob being poisoned in order to get to it's true damage potential. Mutilate shouldn't be comparable PVE DPS to combat builds in my opinion (and I say this as a current 41/20/0 rogue), but making Mutilate rogues a handicap against poison immune bosses is just too much. Mutilate is a hybrid spec, and as such it doesn't need to be equal to Combat Swords in PVE situations or else everybody would be Mutilate.
Combat Daggers, on the other hand, needs real love. Mutilate would be fine with just the one tweak I mention, Combat Daggers needs a serious look and possible overhaul.
I wonder. While it's true that Mutilate is a hybrid build but it's also true that the some of the top pvp rogues (5v5/3v3 mainly) are Combat Swords (Maces for those who only pvp). Add in positional requirement and poison requirement making it a rather picky build.
Not to mention that it requires a lot more micro-managing than either of the combat builds.
In my opinion the order should be:
Combat Daggers
Combat Swords / Combat Fists / Mutilate Combat.
Combat Maces
Waiting on WSC and Ashtongue Exalted trinket, hoping that they'll be more useful with Mutilate.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
I wonder. While it's true that Mutilate is a hybrid build but it's also true that the some of the top pvp rogues (5v5/3v3 mainly) are Combat Swords (Maces for those who only pvp). Add in positional requirement and poison requirement making it a rather picky build.
Not to mention that it requires a lot more micro-managing than either of the combat builds.
In my opinion the order should be:
Combat Daggers
Combat Swords / Combat Fists / Mutilate Combat.
Combat Maces
Waiting on WSC and Ashtongue Exalted trinket, hoping that they'll be more useful with Mutilate.
Combat Dagger is not strong enough for all its deficiencies, agreed. You can compete with Combat Sword but sacrifice all PVP viability. They either need to make Combat Dagger more flexible or more powerful.
Combat Mutilate is OK even with the poisoning requirement. I've gotten 5th on Hydross with Combat Mutilate, which isn't the best of course but it's pretty good considering the poison immunity. It's definitely a hybrid build and so shouldn't be as efficient as Combat Dagger in PVE.
And that Ashtongue Exalted trinket looks amazing for Combat Mutilate, I ran some preliminary numbers on it and you can pretty much have the buff up 90% of the time or higher. 90% of 145 crit rating = a lot, and is crazy good for Mutilate.
I wish Blizzard would remove or provide a work around for the poison dependent nature of Mutilate. I can understand the desire to keep the mechanic intact, it adds to the micro-managing that's necessary to keep Mutilate effective (which is ironically, part of what makes it so fun to play for me).
One idea would be to include another poison option; a poison that can be applied to poison immune mobs. Blizzard could, for example, make this a poison that slightly slows melee attacks (by a marginal amount). Now if the mob in question is still immune to attack speed reduction the poison would still land, the target would still be poisoned, but the net effect of the poison is zero in terms of the DPS it adds directly. This would allow Mutilate to compete on poison immune mobs, while retaining a slight disadvantage in those fights (you'd have to sacrifice a poison slot for a poison that yields no dps gain).
I dunno maybe that's a bad idea, but respeccing for PVP and PVE is really annoying.
I wish Blizzard would remove or provide a work around for the poison dependent nature of Mutilate. I can understand the desire to keep the mechanic intact, it adds to the micro-managing that's necessary to keep Mutilate effective (which is ironically, part of what makes it so fun to play for me).
Since class synergy seems to be important to them, I don't see why they don't allow hunter stings to land on poison immune mobs. Mutilate rogues would be partially dependent on a hunter in the group keeping the sting up, and the poison requirements don't destroy Mutilate rogues in PVE.
I wish Blizzard would remove or provide a work around for the poison dependent nature of Mutilate. I can understand the desire to keep the mechanic intact, it adds to the micro-managing that's necessary to keep Mutilate effective (which is ironically, part of what makes it so fun to play for me).
One idea would be to include another poison option; a poison that can be applied to poison immune mobs. Blizzard could, for example, make this a poison that slightly slows melee attacks (by a marginal amount). Now if the mob in question is still immune to attack speed reduction the poison would still land, the target would still be poisoned, but the net effect of the poison is zero in terms of the DPS it adds directly. This would allow Mutilate to compete on poison immune mobs, while retaining a slight disadvantage in those fights (you'd have to sacrifice a poison slot for a poison that yields no dps gain).
I dunno maybe that's a bad idea, but respeccing for PVP and PVE is really annoying.
I had an idea for Caustic Poison, that stacked to 5 and added a slight (-50 per charge) Armor debuff, that affected normally non-poisonable mobs. But I digress, every Rogue knows Blizzard doesn't listen to Rogues, or read and post in Rogue forums :P
I had an idea for Caustic Poison, that stacked to 5 and added a slight (-50 per charge) Armor debuff, that affected normally non-poisonable mobs. But I digress, every Rogue knows Blizzard doesn't listen to Rogues, or read and post in Rogue forums :P
Oh well, I was wondering in the german Boards the last days. It's very blue at the moment. And most of them are not close posts.
Maybe there will be a boost in one of the next patches for the Rogue.
how can i add items to the spreadsheet?
You have to open the hidden Sheets. There you can easily Add new Items or correct older ones. Well, but how you open that sheets is different from version to version of your office.
I just ran into a situation where "enabling" the haste potion buff decreased my buffed dps by 20. (this seems an unlikely result)
It occured in version 2.3c : http://www.mediafire.com/?fgcgtguxezx
edit: Tested it in 2.3e, and it occurs there as well.
Somehow adding the haste potion reduces the cycle's dps, so it switches the optimum buffed cycle to 2s/5e from 1s/5e, though i don't see why it should suddently get less dps from the first one.
And finally some minor fixes:
* Mangle is a boss debuff rather than a raid buff.
* Could you add a line between Expose weakness and "consumables" (on the gear buffs page)
I hope i'm not too much of a bother, but this should keep you busy a while ^_^
Last edited by Zurgat : 07/04/07 at 9:05 AM.
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I just ran into a situation where "enabling" the haste potion buff decreased my buffed dps by 20. (this seems an unlikely result)
It occured in version 2.3c : http://www.mediafire.com/?fgcgtguxezx
edit: Tested it in 2.3e, and it occurs there as well.
Somehow adding the haste potion reduces the cycle's dps, so it switches the optimum buffed cycle to 2s/5e from 1s/5e, though i don't see why it should suddently get less dps from the first one.
Will take a look added to my personal todo list
Hope I can fix this bug and the ruthlessness bug without writing complet new cycle.
Hope I can fix this bug and the ruthlessness bug without writing complet new cycle.
Good to hear, looks like the cycle problem affects all haste effects above a certain point.
When adding Dragonspine tropy in the above case it gets pushed to the secondary cycle as well, so it actually looks like drakefang talisman is better than it, which is obviously isn't.
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Good to hear, looks like the cycle problem affects all haste effects above a certain point.
When adding Dragonspine tropy in the above case it gets pushed to the secondary cycle as well, so it actually looks like drakefang talisman is better than it, which is obviously isn't.
Well, it may not happend. Haste should only effect Slice and Dice. Maybe there had been add anything which change a Value. I'll see it later when I'm at this point in my list of bugfixes.
Well, it increases energy gain. The cycle might see that as getting energy to more than 100, so it uses a 2nd cycle since it needs to waste those energy points into an other SS before the time is over.
Basically it would need to compare the results of "allowing those energy points to be wasted", or "shifting them to another cycle", then list the best of those 2 options instead of just the most energy efficient one.
Extra energy is always nice. Unless it causes a skill to clip another skill with a global cooldown it can't lower dps output.
The Ruthlessness bug is probably related to the same issue.
If that turns out to be the way to fix it, then I can see that compare being a fairly tricky expansion of the current calculations.
Last edited by Zurgat : 07/04/07 at 10:57 AM.
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Well, it increases energy gain. The cycle might see that as getting energy to more than 100, so it uses a 2nd cycle since it needs to waste those energy points into an other SS before the time is over.
I've found the error. The one who Build the SnD Cut cycles had build the buffed SnD Evis cycle wrong. He had build in some Evis insteed of SnD. Only by 5Evis / 2 SnD cut it was right.
Think the Ruthlessness bug and the Haste bug was the same.
About armor reduction for the serrated blades talents, the formula in the buffed & unbuffed DPS sheets does not match the Tooltip of the talent tree in game.
After a quick test with the values given in game at lvl 60 and 70 the formula should be
Armor reduction = (8 * player level * talent points spend) / 3 = serrb*8*70/3 for the spreadsheet. Actually the formula is serrb*5*70/3
It would be nice if somebody could confirm that.
Other little "mistakes" I've found in the spreadsheet are:
- T6 4p Bonus (i.e. Slayer4value) is missing in "NextStat": A3, I3 & "Buffed DPS": B4, C4, D4
- Merciless Gladiator's Bonus set is missing in "Gear _ Buffs": K77
- The following Buffs: Flame cap, Thistle Tea should be removed from the "Unbuffed DPS" sheet
- Cells F128 & J128 from the "Gear _ Buffs" sheet (buffed agi and buffed AP sums) could be removed to prevent errors while adding buffs (J128 seems to be useless & F128 can replaced by F129 in cell J129)
Originally Posted by Ellos
Does anyone know how Flametongue work?
I read this: "Slower weapons cause more fire damage per swing" but cannot find Information about it.
I'll just need how Weapon Speed and the fire dmg work together and I can add it.
Couldn't find any information about a formula between the damage and the weapon speed.
However:
- Weapons speed is from 1.3 to 4.0 (looking at Thottbot and Allakhazam)
- Flametongue adds 19.4 to 54.7 fire damage
With those informations, think you could take a linear formula:
- 19.4/1.3 gives 14.923 fire damage / sec for the fastest weapon
- 54.7/4.0 gives 14.925 fire damage / sec for the slowest weapon
So Flametongue damage = weapon speed * 14.924
Others things of interest to model this weapon buff is that base damage of flametongue can be improved by:
- Improved Weapon Totems - Increases the damage of your Flametoungue Totem by 6/12%
- Call of Flame - Increases the damage done by your Fire Totems by 5/10/15%
The last thing to do is to check about mobs / bosses resists with flametongue.
So how can I model the 4 peice Tier 5 bonus... I'm really interested if my wastewalker/netherblade/bloodsea set is worth breaking. On the sheet upgrading everything but my Bloodsea vest to Tier 5 results in a ~18 dps upgrade, pretty shit considering it's replacing 4 peices of heroic/easy raid gear with tier5.
From what I've read here (post 2250 + 1699 in this thread), there was a ~1.2 PPM from this set bonus. This is only between 2 posted test results so it's pretty inconclusive. Relentless Attacks also stacks with it, so we don't have to calculate that. So is it as simple as saying, the average energy cost of a finisher (25 energy) *1.2 / minute = energy gained? (30 extra energy per minute, or .5 per second, or 1 per tick) Seems low but there's probably something I'm not taking into consideration.
How much actual dps do you think this is worth? Is there any chance of one of you spreadsheet gurus adding this to a future version? *throws rose petals at your feet*
EDIT: Wahhhh just downloaded the new 2.3f sheet and ellos added an estimated 1.5% coup de grace procchance THANK YOU (not sure if it's supposed to be proc chance or ppm though )
Last edited by Optikalusion : 07/04/07 at 10:08 PM.
The cycle fix looks good. Dragonspine increases dps as expected.
However it looks like the AEP calculation got messed up, after running the calculation it shows:
* Buffed AP : 0 AEP
* Buffed Str : 0 AEP
Would it be possible to add Cold blood as it currently isn't on the talent page.
It wouldn't give a "huge" increase, but 30/31 vs 20/41 looks to be pretty close in damage output.
Last edited by Zurgat : 07/05/07 at 5:58 AM.
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So how can I model the 4 peice Tier 5 bonus... I'm really interested if my wastewalker/netherblade/bloodsea set is worth breaking. On the sheet upgrading everything but my Bloodsea vest to Tier 5 results in a ~18 dps upgrade, pretty shit considering it's replacing 4 peices of heroic/easy raid gear with tier5.
From what I've read here (post 2250 + 1699 in this thread), there was a ~1.2 PPM from this set bonus. This is only between 2 posted test results so it's pretty inconclusive. Relentless Attacks also stacks with it, so we don't have to calculate that. So is it as simple as saying, the average energy cost of a finisher (25 energy) *1.2 / minute = energy gained? (30 extra energy per minute, or .5 per second, or 1 per tick) Seems low but there's probably something I'm not taking into consideration.
How much actual dps do you think this is worth? Is there any chance of one of you spreadsheet gurus adding this to a future version? *throws rose petals at your feet*
EDIT: Wahhhh just downloaded the new 2.3f sheet and ellos added an estimated 1.5% coup de grace procchance THANK YOU (not sure if it's supposed to be proc chance or ppm though )
I've got no better Data to model the T5 4p Bonus. The problem with this Bonus is, that you need the hits and the time to calculate the chance for a 0 Energy Bonus. Well, thats not the problem, the truly problem is, that your needed Energy within a cycle and the cycletime is shorter, so you need lesser hits.
Excel can't calc something that changes the Pre for it.
The Bonus I modeld is not accurate but I think it's cames close enough. Problem is I had to take fix Data. As well the Ashtounge, this won't be give different results for different cycle, sadly.
The cycle fix looks good. Dragonspine increases dps as expected.
However it looks like the AEP calculation got messed up, after running the calculation it shows:
* Buffed AP : 0 AEP
* Buffed Str : 0 AEP
Would it be possible to add Cold blood as it currently isn't on the talent page.
It wouldn't give a "huge" increase, but 30/31 vs 20/41 looks to be pretty close in damage output.
I'll look at the AEP, never used it so I see no errors.
Cold blood.. well. I could calc this into a finisher. I'll see, maybe a have a Idea to model this.
/edit
I'll fixed the AEP error, I'll try to upload a new version today or tomorrow. I don't want a new version with only 1 fix
07/03/07, 1:10 PM
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