presagio

for openoffice the problem is that it cannot load macros into the document.

if it will possibile to have a copy ofthe logic of the macros i will try to make an openoffice version of the document.

 

Ellos

Well, the macros aren't important for using this sheet.
Also I don't want to update 2 different sheets, one is enough work.

 

Ashran

Really nice job, thanks

 

Melnor

Ok here's another idea then. Perhaps the fist does more dps because it is slower and therefore it's speed multiplier affects the white damage calculation more. Since it's slower and white damage is un-normalized then it should scale better with gear than the dagger. Think in terms of the old barman shanker vs gutgore debate. You may be at a gear point where the fist is just simply hitting harder due to your stats and the dagger can't compete although it's faster.

 

Ellos

Don't know what talents or equip you have taken. I've just testet it and the Ripper hadn't a better DPS for me.
Around 10 DPS loose when I was shifting from Shiv to Ripper.

 

Balkoth

Let's say I have two 50 DPS weapons, one with a 1.5 second speed and one with a 3 second speed. Let's also say I get 50 DPS from my gear/buffs.

With the first weapon, I'll hit for 150 damage every 1.5 seconds for 100 DPS.

With the second weapon, I'll hit for 300 damage every 3 seconds for 100 DPS.

Let's double the buff/gear contribution.

First weappon: 225 damage every 1.5 seconds for 150 DPS.

Second weapon: 450 damage every 3 seconds for 150 DPS.

I'm not sure why you think a slower weapon will scale differently with white damage. That's the whole reason it isn't normalized, so it doesn't.

Pre-normalization, the Gutgore did more white damage and the Shanker did more yellow damage (aka Backstabs). The point of the debate was that with sufficient gear the extra backstab damage would end up out-weighing the white damage of the Gutgore, because the Gutgore's damage only scaled with crit and hit, not AP like the Shanker's Backstab damage.

 

Balkoth

And you do *not* have *any* weapon spec selected?

 

Ellos

No. Take your sheet and upload it somewhere. I'll take a look then.

 

Ashran

I use Microsoft Office Excel 2003 and i have got the problem with the Gems wich are not displayed under the Gear when this one has socket.

2.3.0g is fine with MSO Excel 2003.

 

Balkoth

I'm not able to look at it where I am now. When I get home I'll get the newest version and check this discrepancy out if the issue isn't resolved before then.

 

Ellos

Oh boy, I just see it on my notebook. I'll look what I can do to fix this problem.

 

Melnor

You're right in saying that the shanker/ggr case was only in respects of their backstab damage because their base dps and damage range were pretty different and that backstab was an un-normalized instant attack (which effectively makes both weapons 0.0 speed)

That's why I can parallel that debate into this.
Inyour case with 2 gladiator weapons where their dps is identical and their damage range and attack speed are pretty damn close you can use the auto attack damage formula ((ap/14)*weapon speed+ (base weapon damage) = total damage ) to see that the fist, being slower, will hit harder with the same amount of ap. As the weapon speed gets slower it begins to compound the damage modifier that attack power adds.

Just for testing, modify your gear to have around 200 less attack power and see if the dagger then comes out ahead.

To sum up what I'm trying to say:

The fist will out perform the dagger at a certain attack power threshold and higher because of how the auto-attack damage calculation is performed.

 

Brodrik

I'm not sure you understand how AP, speed, and normalizations work.

Take your admitted example. The weapon hits for (AP/14)*WS + WD (WS is speed, WD is weapon damage). It does so once every WS seconds. The DPS is thus [(AP/14)*WS + WD]/WS = (AP/14) + WD/WS = (AP/14) + WDPS, where WDPS is weapon's stated DPS. So in terms of white damage, DPS is independent of weapon speed -- the factor of weapon speed falls out of the AP contribution, and weapon damage / weapon speed simplifies to weapon dps, which is the real statistic of merit for a weapon.

 

Balkoth

Hmm? The whole point of the debate was that since it was unnormalized the Shanker with its slower speed recieved a higher AP bonus on the backstabs.

Right, but you're missing the fact that it's hitting harder BECAUSE the weapon is slower. It's supposed to average out.

Let's look at someone with 700 AP and someone with 1400 AP.

Dagger: 1. ((700/14) * 1.4) + 127.5 = 197.5 damage per hit. 197.5/1.4 = 141 DPS.
2. ((1400/14) * 1.4) + 127.5 = 267.5. 267.5/1.4 = 191 DPS.

Note that we gained exactly 50 DPS because 700/14 = 50.

Fist: 1. ((700/14) * 1.5) + 136.5 = 211.5. 211.5/1.5 = 141 DPS.
2. ((1400/14) * 1.5) + 136.5 = 286.5. 286.5/1.5 = 191 DPS.

Again, we gain exactly 50 DPS.

The reason that weapon speed does not matter in regards to white damage is because white damage is NOT normalized. If it was, people would want the fastest weapons possible.

 

Ellos

Okay, again a new Version.

http://rogue.raidcal.com/
2.3.2

Fixed Gembug. Now finally I hope. I don't understand why it workes on some Versions and on some Version doesn't work.

 

benybenson

i got some pw´s about 4x t5 bonus maybe its helpfull

a solarian kill


+trashs

there ist no internal cd i think

 

Backgoode

This right here is exactly why the shiv should be slightly better than the ripper. *edit* Because of CP procs

 

Balkoth

Only because of combat potency and perhaps poison procs (or any other *static* proc rate).

 

Ellos

mmh. Then the DPS increase is a bit slower I think.

Thanks will change the procrate to 1.2 ppm next Version.

 

Melnor

Yea that was the point i was trying to make. Because since it's instant, weapon speed really doesn't matter.

But now after yours and Brodrik's explainations I can see the flaw in my argument. So I guess this makes the error on the sheet really puzzling!

 

Balkoth

I'm a bit confused. Weapon speed mattered more than anything else back then (in general). Now it's the average damage (though a slower speed lends itself to a higher average, note that I'm talking about the weapon itself and not the damage after the attack power is factored in).

Indeed. They should be equal or the dagger should be slightly higher.

*shrug*

Hopefully someone will spot the error, I can't even look at the spreadsheet until I get home.

 

Zugstab

I am a litle surprised by the results of changing from T4 gloves to T5 gloves. (+7 hit, +34ap. -0.23% crit).

If I have rupture allowed then this shows a DPS improvement along what I would expect.

If I do not allow rupture however, then the upgrade from T4->T5 shows a reduction in dps about 125dps.

T4 gloves are the only T4 that I currently wear, so it's not like i'm breaking T4 set. T5 gloves would be the 2nd peice of T5 i would wear, so I would gain T5 set bonus.

Just a little curious what causes the spreadsheet to think T5 gloves suck if I don't rupture


-PS: Thanks for the great tool, much more fun to play with at work then doing actual work.

-PSS: If anyone wanted http://microtrash.org/maces.xls is the link to my current spreadsheet.

 

Ellos

Had forgot to fix a bug in the buffed cycles. Will be fixed in the next Version.

 

Soladoras

Is there anyway to get the envenom vs. eviscerate sheet that used to be up on bleedo.net thrown into the next version of the DPS spreadsheet?

 

Ellos

Well it's already inbuild for Mutilate. So that sheet you wanted is already inbuild. (It was also only for Mutilate).

For the other cycle I want to build them, but don't now in which version. It is huge work and I must have enough time to do this.