Rogue DPS Spreadsheet - Page 106

• sp00n · 07/09/07, 11:01 AM

The Boss misrate is at 25.5%. This Value you have to reach to get 0 miss. Well don't know at the moment how much hitrating you need.

The 25.5% hab been testet, someone had seen already miss against Bosses with 24.6% so he began this test.

Maybe this is the reason why

The miss rate is believed to be 25.5%, yes.
But with 309 hit rating and 10 skill through weapon expertise, the spreadsheet should display 0% misses, as the hit cap is already exceeded.
Since you cannot get decimal hit rating values, the cap is at 308 with WE.

Ellos · 07/09/07, 11:16 AM

When the data is right:

308/hitrate+5+wshit*10

308/15.8+5+0,04*10

= 24.89 Hit

Well I set the hitcap to 25.5% for Boss so there is still a little bit miss.

Mmhh, just see, the Weapon skill doesn't count into the hitchance ontop of the Gear_Buff sheet (this value is only for display)

Zurgat · 07/09/07, 11:16 AM

The sheet should (and does) display the boss miss rate i think?
As far as i know there is no actual "hit cap", just a highest chance to miss an attack on a certain mob.
So, it seems to do what it's designed to do imo.

In the latest version the Thundering Skyfire Diamond seems to be 4 dps less than the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond.
Previously it was about 10 dps ahead of it, were there any changes regarding it's proc rate in recent versions that caused this change?

Xanthi · 07/09/07, 11:25 AM

The Boss misrate is at 25.5%. This Value you have to reach to get 0 miss. Well don't know at the moment how much hitrating you need.

The 25.5% hab been testet, someone had seen already miss against Bosses with 24.6% so he began this test.

i think this is bcos you always have a 1% chance to miss regardless of +hit

anyway, after doing solarian and looking at some BT gear, i notice quite a few items have passive as well as proc abilities that ignore armour (ie warp-spring coil, madness of the betrayer) and after using rupture for so long, i started wondering: at what point does eviscerate outdps rupture when you stack enough armor reducing abilities?

given 2pc t5 (+40/cp, which equates to +200 damage every 5pt evis), NO mangle (+30% bleed) and specced for eviscerate (imp evis, aggression, etc), how much armour reduction would be required for average eviscerate damage to exceed average rupture damage? if it stands a chance, maybe compare it to a mangled rupture, does it still stand a chance? maybe if the current margin is small enough, eviscerate might actually be a viable option for me during warp-spring procs and swapping back to ruptures otherwise?

Zurgat · 07/09/07, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Xanthi

anyway i was looking at BT gear and i notice a few items have passive as well as proc abilities that ignore armour (ie warp-spring coil, madness of the betrayer) and after using rupture for so long, i started wondering: at what point does eviscerate outdps rupture when you stack enough armor reducing abilities?

I think the spreadsheet assumes a boss to have 5000 armor (i think?), while hydross obviously has less, and void reaver clearly has much more. (Sadly void reaver is immune to bleed...)

It might be nice to have a field we could fill in for the boss' armor value to play around with in this case.

Ellos · 07/09/07, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Zurgat

I think the spreadsheet assumes a boss to have 5000 armor (i think?), while hydross obviously has less, and void reaver clearly has much more. (Sadly void reaver is immune to bleed...)

It might be nice to have a field we could fill in for the boss' armor value to play around with in this case.

Gear_Buffs and then to the right. There is the armor value.

In the latest version the Thundering Skyfire Diamond seems to be 4 dps less than the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond.
Previously it was about 10 dps ahead of it, were there any changes regarding it's proc rate in recent versions that caused this change?

Not in the latest Version.
In 2.3.0e there war a change based on another topic.

@25.5% Miss against bosses. I'll try to find the topic

four · 07/09/07, 11:36 AM

what do u guys think about a build with both, fist and sword spec ? mainhand season 2 fist, offhand season 2 quickblade. i sacrifice endurance, vitality and one point in ruthlessness, which are only placeholder talents, but i gain swordspec for my offhand. the swordproc triggers a mainhand attack with 5% more chance to crit, which is pretty nice. even with the spreadsheet i get better numbers than sword only (season2 main and off) with my gear. i tried this spec yesterday on vashj and i really liked it and swstats prooved it too.

Xanthi · 07/09/07, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by four

what do u guys think about a build with both, fist and sword spec ? mainhand season 2 fist, offhand season 2 quickblade. i sacrifice endurance, vitality and one point in ruthlessness, which are only placeholder talents, but i gain swordspec for my offhand. the swordproc triggers a mainhand attack with 5% more chance to crit, which is pretty nice. even with the spreadsheet i get better numbers than sword only (season2 main and off) with my gear. i tried this spec yesterday on vashj and i really liked it and swstats prooved it too.

i've been experimenting with this build as well and have been trying it for the past 2 weeks with my A2 sword OH and A1 fist MH.

anyway, you don't have to sacrifice ruthlessness. you can just give up imp eviscerate like me, since i'm using rupture mostly except on trash or unbleedable mobs.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=w0eboxZGcV0bVzEMGot

• Shifft · 07/09/07, 11:55 AM

I've also been using fist/sword spec (spec literally identical to Xanthi's), and I find that I edge out our sword rogues in DPS most of the time provided that we have windfury. Without, I think that pure sword spec is slightly stronger, but fist/sword is in no way gimping yourself when unbuffed.

Edit: Identical to his armory spec, not the wowhead one.

Ellos · 07/09/07, 11:57 AM

http://boards.worldofraids.com/index...d=41691#p41691

Actually, it's 27% against raid bosses (before modifiers).

diff = ( defender defense skill - attacker weapon skill )

if diff is > 10, miss% = 5% + 19% + ( 0.2% * diff )
if diff <= 10 miss% = 5% + 19% + ( 0.1% * diff )

This is for players and mobs attacking mobs. A raid boss is lvl73 which means a base defense of 365, and your base weapon skill is 350, so diff is 15, which gives you 27% miss.

Best I found so far. Don't know if this is true.

man, why I can't find the topic?

/edit

[Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion

believe that were the topic

Oh and here
Hit Caps

Maybe I should set the limit to 27%?

Sarutobi · 07/09/07, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Xanthi

i think this is bcos you always have a 1% chance to miss regardless of +hit

That is incorrect. There have been multiple rogues who have reached the hit cap and seen 0 misses as a result.

Karmon · 07/09/07, 1:02 PM

Well the DPS sheet still has 0.04 hit/skillpoint.
According to [Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion it should be 0.1% per skillpoint (note: skillpoint! not Rating)
So 2Talentpoints in weapon expertise nets you 1% hit

Tenge · 07/09/07, 1:41 PM

I change these two cells every time I download a new version of the sheet, yeah.
Modify the boss miss rating to 25.5% and change the hit/skill to 0.1%.

Edit: I actually mis-spoke, sorry Ellos. I meant to say the 15.8 -> 15.769, rather than the boss miss rate.

Ellos · 07/09/07, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Tenge

I change these two cells every time I download a new version of the sheet, yeah.
Modify the boss miss rating to 25.5% and change the hit/skill to 0.1%.

25.5% is already the bossmiss.

hit/skill will be changed in the Version.

Sokkou · 07/09/07, 4:04 PM

That "you always have 1% miss chance" is just an old-wives tale before the real math and theorycrafting came to light.

One of my good friends, Edras of DnT, went hit-capped vs. Morogrim, and without getting graved once, had 0 misses. That's probably the absolute best evidence one can get for this topic.

Sarutobi · 07/09/07, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by Sokkou

That "you always have 1% miss chance" is just an old-wives tale before the real math and theorycrafting came to light.

It is true for spells though, but I doubt there would be too many people that would actually try to put together a +16% spell hit set of gear to try to prevent their poisons from being resisted. :p

• Chicken · 07/09/07, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by Sokkou

That "you always have 1% miss chance" is just an old-wives tale before the real math and theorycrafting came to light.

Or someone confusing spell mechanics with melee mechanics.

Edit: Didn't notice the extra page on this thread, ignore me.

Sokkou · 07/09/07, 4:10 PM

Originally Posted by Sokkou

One of my good friends, Edras of DnT, went hit-capped vs. Morogrim, and without getting graved once, had 0 misses. That's probably the absolute best evidence one can get for this topic.

Edited this in after you guys quoted me, check it out.

fate · 07/09/07, 4:36 PM

Originally Posted by Tenge

I change these two cells every time I download a new version of the sheet, yeah.
Modify the boss miss rating to 25.5% and change the hit/skill to 0.1%.

Originally Posted by Ellos

25.5% is already the bossmiss.

hit/skill will be changed in the Version.

First off, thank you for all the quick and concise responses, they have been very helpful.

On this topic I just wanted to say that under the current build of 2.3.6 changing the hit/skill box to 0.1% results in a 0%miss rate with only 303 hit rating and 2/2 WE instead of the believed 308 hit rating and 2/2 WE.

-Fate

• sp00n · 07/09/07, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by Ellos

When the data is right:

308/hitrate+5+wshit*10

308/15.8+5+0,04*10

= 24.89 Hit

Well I set the hitcap to 25.5% for Boss so there is still a little bit miss.

Mmhh, just see, the Weapon skill doesn't count into the hitchance ontop of the Gear_Buff sheet (this value is only for display)

It's 15.769 and not 15.8.
While seemingly a marginal rounding error, it's defining the hit cap by 1 rating.

25.5 - 5 (talent) - 1 (10 skill * 0.1)= 19.5 * 15.769 = 307.4955 hit rating required.
(308.1 would be needed with a 15.8:1 conversion.)

pillz · 07/09/07, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by Sokkou

That "you always have 1% miss chance" is just an old-wives tale before the real math and theorycrafting came to light.

One of my good friends, Edras of DnT, went hit-capped vs. Morogrim, and without getting graved once, had 0 misses. That's probably the absolute best evidence one can get for this topic.

Its not hard to hit the hit cap i have been either at it or over it for months

pillz · 07/09/07, 4:49 PM

Originally Posted by fate

First off, thank you for all the quick and concise responses, they have been very helpful.

On this topic I just wanted to say that under the current build of 2.3.6 changing the hit/skill box to 0.1% results in a 0%miss rate with only 303 hit rating and 2/2 WE instead of the believed 308 hit rating and 2/2 WE.

-Fate

Thats because of the latros shifting sword u have equiped

Ellos · 07/09/07, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by sp00n

It's 15.769 and not 15.8.
While seemingly a marginal rounding error, it's defining the hit cap by 1 rating.

25.5 - 5 (talent) - 1 (10 skill * 0.1)= 19.5 * 15.769 = 307.4955 hit rating required.
(308.1 would be needed with a 15.8:1 conversion.)

hehe then I'll change this in the Spreadsheet to, there is already 15.8

(0,2 DPS inc. WOA

)

Trazhenko · 07/09/07, 4:54 PM

Originally Posted by fate

First off, thank you for all the quick and concise responses, they have been very helpful.

On this topic I just wanted to say that under the current build of 2.3.6 changing the hit/skill box to 0.1% results in a 0%miss rate with only 303 hit rating and 2/2 WE instead of the believed 308 hit rating and 2/2 WE.

-Fate

According to the armory, you have Latro's Shifting Sword, and the +skill is covering the gap.

EDIT: Beaten to the punch

Sokkou · 07/09/07, 5:02 PM

Originally Posted by pillz

Its not hard to hit the hit cap i have been either at it or over it for months

Did I say it was hard to hit? What was even the point of posting that.