Rogue DPS Spreadsheet - Page 11

Nathariel · 11/01/06, 9:12 AM

Wondering how you are calculating the AP increase from deadliness to rupture, is it simply an overall multiplication by 1.1?

Reason i ask is that I know that it was not working properly during 1.12.1 test realm (not applying to Garrotte/Rupture) but haven't rechecked since.

pf · 11/01/06, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Milano

I was going to compare the difference between AQR and Misplaced Servo Arm but it seems like i'm getting error when equipping the mace. Has nothing to do with the weapon specialization as i've changed that to Mace Spec already. Same happens when I equip it in the spreadsheet with hemorrhage talents. Using latest version

Seems to be an issue with openoffice. I think i know how to fix it.

Originally Posted by Nathariel

Wondering how you are calculating the AP increase from deadliness to rupture, is it simply an overall multiplication by 1.1?

Reason i ask is that I know that it was not working properly during 1.12.1 test realm (not applying to Garrotte/Rupture) but haven't rechecked since.

Hmm, I did not know this. It is entirely possible that +ap to undead items do not benefit on moves like evis/rupture as well considering that it does not affect bloodthirst.

pf · 11/02/06, 12:52 AM

Version 2.0.5 - 11/01/2006
Small correction on buffed stats.
Fixed circular reference with Blessing of Kings and Mol'dar's Moxie.
Fixed a problem with the 5s/4r cycle giving inflated results.
Fixed an issue with Openoffice and Misplaced Servo Arm.
Added more +skill comparisons on the nextstat display.

Linked the known issues onto the OP so people can read them and not have to sort through several pages on the forums to figure out if their problem has been addressed before. I am hoping that this version is good enough to last until I can add the first batch of expansion talents without having to update 2 different spreadsheets again. Half the reason I merged them in the first place was to make it easier to edit.

Kjaska · 11/02/06, 2:46 PM

Hi there! First of all I would like to thank pf and Kalman for continuing the great work on the spreadsheet, it improved my game a lot :)

Now here comes my question: if the situation is as follows - 5cp on the target, wearing 3/3 Emblems of the Veiled Shadows, having ~4-8sec SnD left, what should i do?

a) hit SnD for 10 extra energy
b) wait until energy ticks 80, hit SnD, hit BS and waste the remaining SnD uptime
c) hit BS, hit SnD as soon as SnD buff is at 0 sec and waste 1cp

i appreciate your help in advance :>

Kalman · 11/02/06, 2:48 PM

Originally Posted by Kjaska

Hi there! First of all I would like to thank pf and Kalman for continuing the great work on the spreadsheet, it improved my game a lot :)

Now here comes my question: if the situation is as follows - 5cp on the target, wearing 3/3 Emblems of the Veiled Shadows, having ~4-8sec SnD left, what should i do?

a) hit SnD for 10 extra energy
b) wait until energy ticks 80, hit SnD, hit BS and waste the remaining SnD uptime
c) hit BS, hit SnD as soon as SnD buff is at 0 sec and waste 1cp

i appreciate your help in advance :>

Stated without proof, and without attempt at proof: you should pop SnD immediately, to get 10 energy back and shorten the amount of time til your next 10 energy gain.

pf · 11/02/06, 2:59 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Originally Posted by Kjaska

Hi there! First of all I would like to thank pf and Kalman for continuing the great work on the spreadsheet, it improved my game a lot :)

Now here comes my question: if the situation is as follows - 5cp on the target, wearing 3/3 Emblems of the Veiled Shadows, having ~4-8sec SnD left, what should i do?

a) hit SnD for 10 extra energy
b) wait until energy ticks 80, hit SnD, hit BS and waste the remaining SnD uptime
c) hit BS, hit SnD as soon as SnD buff is at 0 sec and waste 1cp

i appreciate your help in advance :>

Stated without proof, and without attempt at proof: you should pop SnD immediately, to get 10 energy back and shorten the amount of time til your next 10 energy gain.

Hitting snd immediately isnt necessarily the best idea. B from above is the best option as you get maximum energy towards your next cycle as well as 0 cp wasted so that you will not lose any of the 10 energy bonus. Although, I would hit snd between 50-70 energy since you run a risk of wasting energy with more than 70.

Hitting snd immediately will usually be ok, but if you run across a bad string of dodges, you could have slight snd downtime. The main point is to never waste any combo points with the 3 piece bonus, but instead waste snd time.

probiscus · 11/02/06, 3:01 PM

Recently picked up the (very) poor mans hemo weapon: CotBD, and ran it through the calcs to compare it to a 15/31/5 w/ HoD/Pugio. I was surprised to find the spec only fell behind by about 5-6% in the very scripted sustained DPS encounter the spreadsheet emulates.

However we ran TE last night, which should be an -alright- baseline for sustained damage as you can keep 5pt SnD going, while the hemo spec is able to squeeze in a 2 pt rupture along with the 5 SnD cycle ... and my damage *sucked*. I reckon it's due to more of the damage (on a relative basis) from a hemo spec coming from the finishers (compared to CD), and the hemo really sucks wind when you're relying on any sort of white/OH damage.

Yes, I realize it's anecdotal, but from a fight where my combat dagger spec is on top by ~1%, I was expecting a drop, but not to be as far off as I was. My resulting question has to do more w/ how to experienced hemo rogues play the class on fights like that? Should I not be focusing on keeping 100% SnD uptime, and more on my finishers, or just respec into combat fist and chalk it up to being curious.

Graecus · 11/02/06, 3:12 PM

I may be looking at this wrong, but I wouldn't put TE in the "sustained dps fight" category.

Pf, with the upcoming changes for beta, what are you looking to do with the sheet? I've played a fair amount of the beta, but I really haven't been able to dedicate the time to break down what they're doing with +skill and the different ratings. Have you been in the know of any of these changes?

pf · 11/02/06, 3:16 PM

Originally Posted by probiscus

Recently picked up the (very) poor mans hemo weapon: CotBD, and ran it through the calcs to compare it to a 15/31/5 w/ HoD/Pugio. I was surprised to find the spec only fell behind by about 5-6% in the very scripted sustained DPS encounter the spreadsheet emulates.

However we ran TE last night, which should be an -alright- baseline for sustained damage as you can keep 5pt SnD going, while the hemo spec is able to squeeze in a 2 pt rupture along with the 5 SnD cycle ... and my damage *sucked*. I reckon it's due to more of the damage (on a relative basis) from a hemo spec coming from the finishers (compared to CD), and the hemo really sucks wind when you're relying on any sort of white/OH damage.

Yes, I realize it's anecdotal, but from a fight where my combat dagger spec is on top by ~1%, I was expecting a drop, but not to be as far off as I was. My resulting question has to do more w/ how to experienced hemo rogues play the class on fights like that? Should I not be focusing on keeping 100% SnD uptime, and more on my finishers, or just respec into combat fist and chalk it up to being curious.

First off, you probably had the hemo debuff option selected on the spreadsheet. Keep in mind that very little of this added damage gets attributed to you on the dps meter.

Secondly, on a fight like TE, you want to hit a 3-4 pt snd while running towards the melee emp so hopefully you lose 5 energy max if relentless procs. (if you have aspect with hunters, it could change your strat). The best idea is to probably 3pt snd, 5pt rupture, build 3 points and switch sides. I used to be able to run this cycle with combat swords and 3/3 ruthlessness. Was very effective for dps, but occasionally had 2 non-ruthless procs and would have to hit a 1-2 pt snd on the switch. With hemo, there shouldnt be any problem running a 3s/5r cycle on the emps.

pf · 11/02/06, 3:25 PM

Originally Posted by Graecus

I may be looking at this wrong, but I wouldn't put TE in the "sustained dps fight" category.

Pf, with the upcoming changes for beta, what are you looking to do with the sheet? I've played a fair amount of the beta, but I really haven't been able to dedicate the time to break down what they're doing with +skill and the different ratings. Have you been in the know of any of these changes?

Currently, I am starting work on implementing beta talents. The assassination tree is going to pose quite a challenge with the current implementation of the cycle sheet as cycles will no longer be combo point based, but instead be more sequence of instants/finishers paying no heed to current combo points and hoping for the best sealfate/ruthless procs.

Things like changes to the armor formula and +skill are the last of my worries about it. Changing the formulas for those will be pretty easy and not require anything special. I only know of any changes based on whats posted on public forums, as I do not have a beta account. It would be nice if blizzard sent one my way, but I dont think I am on their list. I do trust that blizzard is seeking to balance melee and caster dps for TBC though, but I'm not sure I trust their method of testing.

Jacksparrow · 11/02/06, 3:47 PM

Originally Posted by pf

Of note is the sword spec change. Apparently sometime in the recent past, blizzard has removed the nerf from sword spec that they implemented in 1.10. However, the issue still remains with Hand of Justice.

Just wanted some clarification on this item. Are you saying that Blizzard went back to proc off a proc? or do you mean with the resetting of the main hand swing?....when dealing with the sword spec nerf.

Also, I appreciate the spreadsheet. Thanks for putting in the time to test stuff others (like me) are too lazy to do ourselves.

castille · 11/02/06, 3:52 PM

I'm reasonably sure that they have fixed sword spec always proccing the MH, and might've fixed the swing timer reset. I know that they were talking about 'extra attacks' coming from the sword that proc'd them, not always the main one.

pf · 11/02/06, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by Jacksparrow

Originally Posted by pf

Of note is the sword spec change. Apparently sometime in the recent past, blizzard has removed the nerf from sword spec that they implemented in 1.10. However, the issue still remains with Hand of Justice.

Just wanted some clarification on this item. Are you saying that Blizzard went back to proc off a proc? or do you mean with the resetting of the main hand swing?....when dealing with the sword spec nerf.

Also, I appreciate the spreadsheet. Thanks for putting in the time to test stuff others (like me) are too lazy to do ourselves.

Ok, blizzard NEVER removed sword spec procs from sword spec procs. They went back on this change before it ever went live.

The mainhand timer is still reset on procs from specials and offhand attacks like always.

The server side delay forcing a reset of the mainhand timer often a full second after a proc from a mainhand swing has been removed. However, the delayed proc still exists with hand of justice. Example below for clarification:
2.0 speed main, 1.0 speed off

1.11 sword spec and current implementation of HoJ

00:00 you hit mob with mh
00:50 you hit mob with oh
01:50 you hit mob with oh
02:00 you hit mob with mh
02:50 you gain extra attack from mh
02:50 you hit mob with mh
02:50 you hit mob with oh
03:50 you hit mob with oh
04:50 you hit mob with mh
04:50 you hit mob with oh
05:00 you gain extra attack from oh
05:00 you hit mob with mh
05:00 you gain extra attack from mh
05:00 you hit mob with mh
05:50 you hit mob with oh
06:50 you hit mob with oh
07:00 you hit mob with mh

Offhand behaves with ~50% reduction and mainhand has a ~half second reduction which in this case is about 25%

1.12.1 (not sure when it was fixed as my only testing was HoJ and HoJ is still broken)

00:00 you hit mob with mh
00:50 you hit mob with oh
01:50 you hit mob with oh
02:00 you gain extra attack from mh (from below msg)
02:00 you hit mob with mh
02:00 you hit mob with mh
02:50 you hit mob with oh
03:50 you hit mob with oh
04:00 you hit mob with mh
04:50 you gain extra attack from oh
04:50 you hit mob with oh
04:50 you hit mob with mh
04:50 you gain extra attack
04:50 you hit mob with mh
05:50 you hit mob with oh
06:50 you hit mob with mh
06:50 you hit mob with oh

~50% reduction to offhand/specials and 0% reduction to mainhand procs.

This is honestly very close to 1% crit assuming you are offhanding a 1.6 speed weapon.

probiscus · 11/02/06, 7:17 PM

Originally Posted by Graecus

I may be looking at this wrong, but I wouldn't put TE in the "sustained dps fight" category.

Well, considering you can run in (after the first port) with a 5cp SnD, it should serve as a close enough approximation, as I indicated in my post. It's still a 10 minute fight, where, after the first port, CD builds carry 100% SnD uptime.

As our rogues are pretty consistent, I'll probably respec combat fists after another couple kills to see where that falls out. Combat daggers had me #1, hemo had me #4 (of 5 rogues), with the #1 rogue putting out almost 20% more total damage. The only difference was my spec, no ACLG's to benefit claws, 299 weapon skill, and a base +hit value (no precision) of 6%. Missing specials sucks.

Edited for the profile.

Biku · 11/02/06, 7:33 PM

So I have been reading this thread and the original for quite some time now and decided I should finally give some input. It is small, but the calculated Agility and Dodge is incorrect because it uses a rounded value. If you plugin the following values, the sheet will match with the correct values in your spellbook:

Agility = 28.4351145038168 per 1% crit

Dodge = 14.4941634241245 per 1% dodge

I have a spreadsheet that I used to prove these values if you wanna take a looksie ^.^