pf

http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=1238
http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=1067

The only changed items are "hunter items" according to blizzard.
Prestors. Accuria. Reanimation. BoN.

 

discofiend

as a human mace rogue, i've been curious about how i'll be affected by the upcoming changes to weapon skill. I've recently changed from a standard 20/31 build to a 30/21 build, and have been quite pleased with the results. I'm definitely above the hemo rogues who have better gear, and am only slightly below the combat dagger rogues who have much better gear (i have 2piece T3 no epic trinkets, they have 5 and 8 pieces, respectively, and drake fang + other epic trinkets).

I used to laugh a little at SF sword/mace rogues, but after doing a PUG MC run for kicks and seeing how another rogue with that build performed so well, i figured i'd give it a try myself.

Relevant to the conversation above, by going to SF combat, i shift my damage slighly from white to yellow, thus buffering myself from the effects of the 2.0 patch more than if i were still 20/31.

 

Regis

This might be redundant to say on a theorycrafter/min-maxing forum, but some also play with daggers because they see it as the only real way to play a rogue.

Either way - In PC, dagger rogues have ALWAYS been on top of the damagemeters rogue-wise, up until a rogue got hold of a gressil, which is when he started taking the #1 spot. That goes for basically every fight except a few, like gluth. However, he IS a human rogue and he does have a sword with 73 dps versus our daggers with 65-66 dps. I do expect to revert that trend once I get hold of a Kingsfall though (Oh, will it ever drop? :S).

 

Notyou

You realize you're close to the other rogues because the other rogues are guys like Dhampire right? ;)

No seriously...I think the advent of Combat Potency in the patch will make up for it in the case of sword/mace rogues. With a 11/40/0 build and 4/9 BS (which you'll have soon enough I'm sure with where you guys are), a 5S&D/5Evis cycle becomes easy to maintain. It's the combat dagger rogues that are going to hurting a little more.

Edit: That was directed at Disco...Regis got his post in between while I was typing. :)

 

pf

Ok, with the announcement of the patch coming Tuesday, I have decided to release an unfinished version of what I have so far for people that browse this forum. I am hoping to have a more polished version by Tuesday, but I am not sure yet. Do no be surprised if next-stat gives incredibly wrong values, I have not touched it yet.

Disclaimer: The assassination talents are not finished yet. This includes mutilate. If you use them, the data will most likely be wrong.

Also, thanks to Bleedo of Vis Maior for the webspace that will hopefully prove to be more reliable than savefile. Please do not link this on the WoW forums as I don't want incompetent people asking a lot of questions about mutilate not working etc, and then using my name to make baseless claims.

http://rogue.bleedo.net/tbc/

 

Kobal

Either I am missing something or you forgot to include the 8% damage bonus granted by surprise attacks.

Oddly enough, when I crudely added that bonus to the spreadsheet a 8/40/2 combat dagger spec would still do more DPS than a 8/41/2 combat dager spec and 15/40/5 would do more than 15/41/5. Could the reason for this be that in this version of the spreadsheet still a one-roll system for Backstab is used?

 

pf

When I select surprise attacks, I get a dps increase. This includes the 8% bonus. And yes, it still uses a 1-roll system. Not sure what you are seeing.

 

◊ castille

Thanks, pf!

23:40:55> [Illidan Stormrage's] [Shear] was blocked by [Castille].
^ Yes, this actually happened. Yes, Castille is a shaman.

 

• Maestroquark

It's in the uavginst/avginst equations, in the Unbuffed/Buffed Cycle sheets.

This does mean, though, that Avg/Min/Max hit/crit are listed wrong when it's selected. Adjusted Damage is right.

 

◊ Kalman

Avg/min/max have been ignored for a while; they were used historically, but haven't been incorporated into actual DPS calculations in quite some time now.

http://mmorchive.net

The WoW forums, explained:

 

• Maestroquark

Right, but up until this point they were still accurate, correct?
It is nice to see how hard your new weapon can theoretically hit for :)

 

◊ Kalman

No, pretty sure they've been inaccurate for a while, or at least the average.

http://mmorchive.net

The WoW forums, explained:

 

pf

They have been mostly accurate, but never accounted for armor. They just use the base formula to display them, but as Kalman stated, they are not included in the actual dps formula, and as such, have been left alone for now as polish is the last thing I am after. The average is the average hit, or average crit, but not the average of hits and crits.

 

Un

Thank you so much Pf for giving us the beta version of the patch 2.0 spreadsheet to play with.

I just want to ask if you're confident the new +weaponskill is accurate in this spreadsheet (before I get too depressed)?

 

pf

I did not change anything with weapon skill other than putting a flat 76% modifier on glancing blows. I really dont know exactly how it will work since the description given was quite vague and seamed to be a typo.

 

Royksopp

Thank you, pf, for releasing the "beta" 2.0 sheet. :)

 

Trevorz

I tested a bunch of possible dagger specs to try and figure out what to spec next Tuesday, and I found that 6/41/4 (which edges out on 5/41/5 by a few dps - 1 point in imp SnD over 5/5 opportunity) is around 10 dps higher than 15/31/5 at my level of gear. I'm interested to see how combat potency works out in practice compared to relentless strikes, which is the obvious big loss with this kinda spec, in addition to lethality. 11/40 barely loses out to 15/31/5 and 6/41/5.

Using this spec and comparing with the old spreadsheet which included +skill, I've only lost about 12dps in total, so it's not as big a deal as I was originally anticipating. Can't really be sure of anything until the patch hits, but I think speccing 6/41/4 with daggers is definitely worth a try if nothing else.

 

• Andeh

I've been playing around with this, and am finding that with my gear, an 11/40 sword build with R14/Iblis is beating every dagger build (Maexxna/Pugio) I can think of (best was 7/41/3). My guess is that its due to swords being able to get both Relentless Strikes and Combat Potency while maintaining every SS enhancer talent, whereas at level 60 Dagger is stuck making compromises. That and Windfury procs off the R14 sword must be nuts. ;)

Of note, 4 piece T3 bonus makes a difference for dagger talents. You'll want 6/41/4 if you have it, 7/41/3 if you don't.

 

Wodahs

Im quite confused in regards to gear, and spec for the patch. I have 7/9 BS, missing chest/ring, bonea, and DD vest.

BS belt is better dps than Bonea per the chart and my gear, about a 1ish dps bump.
BS breastplate loses about 2 dps vs the dd vest.
Something doesnt seem right somewhere. Ill start analyzing numbers as soon as I can.


It looks like more than the 24% glancing change was done, as I get a 3 dps bump using weap expertise in the t5bc spreadsheet, 27 dps bump using the older 1.12 complaint version. Does this mean you interpreted the wording on the talent?

 

pf

BS belt vs BoNEA with what buffs? Kings + zandalar really push BS up there.

Also, I left +skill to be +0.04% to hit/crit/-dodge

 

Wodahs

That will teach me to use the spreadsheet and not check the world buffs. Sorry, lol.

 

• astearns

Odd result with the new spreadsheet. I'm looking at a 11/0/40 hemo spec, and fiddling around with the Assassination points. With 2 second-tier points unspent (5 Malice 3 Evisc, 1 Relentless), my buffed DPS is at 622 with the optimum CP usage set to 5s/4r. If I add a point to Ruthlessness my DPS drops to 599 with the CP usage set to 5r. I don't know enough about the cycle analysis sheet to figure out what's going wrong, but I find it quite strange to see my DPS drop because of an occasional extra combo point.

 

Notyou

So I've got a question...

With an 11/40/0 build and my soon to be 4/9 BS, I should have no problem keeping up a 5s/5e rotation with 100% S&D uptime. However, there's an interesting kink thrown into the mix: mangle and 40 debuff slots. Without mangle, eviscerate still outdoes rupture, and even in the rare high armor situations where rupture may pull ahead, it's never been worth the debuff slot when our locks bitch and moan.

Then mangle brings rupture right back into the mix. See, my guild master is a feral druid planning on picking up mangle for raiding. So we'll have it up a good portion of the time, especially on the encounters he tanks (like Thaddius).

Assuming 1900 raid buffed AP, a 5 point evis does an average of around 1120 non-crit, assuming 10% damage reduction from armor like the sheet uses. Assuming 35% crit, that's an average of just over 1500.

I'm not 100% sure of the AP conversion on Rupture, but I'm going to guess at the same .15*AP of eviscerate spread over the duration. So that puts a 5 point rupture to 1220 over 22 seconds. Mangle is 30% improved bleeds, so it'd be almost 1600 damage over the course of rupture for 10 less energy (really free with relentless).

So I guess my real question is this: Do I have that right? Does mangle make rupture worth using?

 

Ahiru

Rupture gets 24% based on Drysc's numbers (http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-rogue/1341262.htm), so a Rupture will be bigger than you say. Definitely worth considering when you have a Mangle druid.

 

saiyajinmaster

I've been playing with the spreadsheet based on my current gear (Switching some pieces around from hunter stat changes come patch of course), and some of the results have been pretty surprising to me...
First is that, if you add the hemo DPS estimate (Which I always take with a grain of salt but still I think it's worth noting when considering Hemo at all), is that 11-0-40 Sinister Calling builds have the highest DPS of anything I was able to reasonably add in there. That shocked me a ton (With Servo Arm of course, only Hemo weapon worth anything), And that even after that Combat Swords is way over combat daggers again.

Considering that with Potency you're now looking at more fluid finisher cycles that leaves more room for user error (And obviously will spread good rogues farther from average ones that just follow their cycles), but with the Hemo build you're still looking at the same 5-5 repeating, making little to no chance of error at all. I know the sheet is in beta so I'm still somewhat skeptical, but I thought it was interesting nonetheless. I'm assuming people with stuff like Gressil + THC are still best off going combat, of course, but most us of don't have access to those types of weapons. Weapon skill could always turn out to be better than early reports are indicating too, I suppose.

I guess what I'm asking is if those results seem pretty reasonable to guys like pf and Kalman? I know Kalman was steadfastly opposed to Hemo for a long time, then relented that it wasn't 'bad' but still not great (Correct me if I'm misinterpreting), but I've always found it to be quite competetive at that level of gear (Normally one, two, or three on PW ~680 DPS buffed with Goose/Sandworm/Firewater/Juju power) , and am kind of hopeful that I'd be able to keep using it, but I won't gimp the raid to do so if Combat really clearly comes out on top.

Numbers I was getting:
11-0-40 = 785.65 / 854.74 with Hemo debuff
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...30321010511350

21-0-30 = 781.38 / 850.45 with Hemo debuff
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...20321010500000

11-40-0 = 819.96 (827.40 with GM sword instead of Servo arm) (792.64 with GM dirk + Pugio)
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

15-31-5 (Normal current combat daggers) = 766.11 (GM dirk + Pugio)
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000 (Some trash points in combat can be spent differently in most of these specs)