◊ Kalman

I always liked hemo, and I've said for quite a long time that *one* hemo rogue is worthwhile, at low and at high levels of gear (where finisher spam catches them up or where gear scaling catches them up). Pre-1.12, it wasn't very good; Deadliness helped a lot. SC helps more. So, yeah, I'm not surprised to see SC rogues doing well in comparison to combat.

If you have multiple hemo rogues, the hemo debuff DPS is basically split between them, making the spec far less impressive for multiple rogues.

My real worry with the patch at this point is that it's pretty clearly going to be bad for combat dagger setups in comparison to combat swords builds; unless Mutilate manages to compete, I'm not really sure what to expect for myself.

 

Nathariel

Looks like raiding hemo will be gone when the new patch comes out, putting imp snd in the Combat tree, or at least will have to rethink from the 21/0/30 build.

 

• Playered

what about combat daggers which now needs to have 8 in assassination unquestionably, best i can see is 8/41/2

 

Zerianne

What? Combat Daggers has always needed points in Assassination: Imp SnD and Relentless strikes was and will continue to be a must, switching imp backstab and imp SnD changes nothing for pve daggers. It merely makes pvp daggers viable.

There's no compelling reason to go 41 combat right at level 60 imo, I think 15/31/5 will remain the top choice for pve dps until more talent points are avaiable post-expansion. The new tier combat talents are cool but not worth dropping Opportunity AND lethality for.

 

Zoro

Raid hemo just got gutted.

8 points in combat is now a must, and the first five are effectively wasted.

13/8/30 or 11/10/30 not a patch on the old 21/0/30.

Further the swap of Imp Sap with Elusiveness is a direct raid nerf. Having to put points in Elusiveness to get up the tree wasn't ideal but at least it did something. Now the choice is filler points in Imp Sap or Concealment. Both of which do jack all for raiding.

To think, I was contemplating 11/0/40. Damn your eyes Blizzard.

 

Regis

I completely agree with Zerianne - The "must-have" talents for a dagger spec to become viable in any role is spread around too many trees. Opportunity in subtlety, Relentless Strikes, Imp SnD and lethality in assassination. Stick to the regular combat build 15/31/5 and wait til you get to lvl 70 to get surprise attacks and combat potency. I don't see much point in getting surprise attacks and combat potency and losing 50% of your assas and subtlety trees.

 

GrizleyCQ

All raid builds require at least 11 points in assassination.

The only build really hurt by the change in Imp SnD is PVE hemo.

 

Trazhenko

Just a little clarification on rupture: only a 5 pt gets 24%.

For 1 pt you get 1% of AP added to each tick.
For 2 pt you get 2% of AP added to each tick.
For 3 or more pts you get 3% added per tick (a 5 pt is 8 ticks, which yields 24% total).

 

Bleedo

Wheee, I <3 updates. Thanks pf.

http://www.bleedo.net/Signatures/bleedo.php
http://www.bleedo.net
http://www.vismaior.org

 

Revenge

Sorry for the possibly noob question but why are there two thunderfurys on the spreadsheet one which is normal and one called alt model???

which one would be the correct for modeling MH performance.

Ps Also if the Tf modeled correctly fo off hand, as i tired checking it out with combat poteny and retentless strike build and from the Spreadsheet, iblis seems to be higher dps in Of then TF

Revenge

 

pf

2 thunderfurys is an artifact left from past sheet when there was not an accurate representation of thunderfury. There is now and the alternate should no longer be used.

 

Revenge

So the Alternative Tf is the wrong one, thx for clearly that up, but i was wondering is the Tf modeled correctly in off hand wiht combat potency?

 

Drakonious

I saw people talking about Hemo getting nerfed by having to go into combat for Imp SnD...but consider this build.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=iZ...zx00oLxMgobhoo

Prep is there for two Adrenaline Rushes during a boss fight, with two vanishes to compensate for aggro issues.

 

◊ Kalman

Interesting thought, but I don't see it beating out 11/20/30 hemo setups. Yeah, you lose out on CP, BF, AR, and Sword Spec, but pick up Malice, Deadliness, and Relentless Strikes.

 

◊ Kalman

Hm. I don't *think* it would, except in multi-target situations; while BF is a DPS increase in non-AE situations, it's very minor, and 2% AP isn't that minor.

However, I could definitely see it being desirable, depending on encounter design.

edit: Prep nerf edit!

 

• frmorrison

The beta Prep does not list BF in the cooldown list. However, many of the 5 man have multi-pulls, but until I see the raid encounters, I feel 2% AP beats BF atm.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Drakonious

Hey Kalman, what's the DPS difference on average between your hemo spec and a combat sword spec of identical gear? I obviously expect combat to come out on top, but I'm wondering if now it's viable to have 1 hemo specced rogue for the debuff to boost overall DPS. I still don't see the debuff being all that great considering in a 25 man raid there's practically no chance of the melee DPS using up all the charges before it's reapplied.

 

roq

PF,

Looking at the spread sheet this weekend and i think i found a bug. I noticed that when i have 2/3 SnD and 3/3 SnD my DPS doesn't change at all. It is just a product of my gear, or is this actually working correctly? I am your standard 15/31/5 build.

 

Kody

Do you have any points in Ruthlessness? I believe 2(or is it 3?) in that offsets having 1 less in Improved Slice and Dice.

 

◊ Kalman

Once you have enough CP/energy to maintain 100% SND uptime, you won't see a difference in DPS; 100% of your energy goes to Backstab, and 100% of your CP go to SnD. Therefore, once you hit that point, CP efficiency talents don't matter; there's no real difference between 2/3 and 3/3 in terms of long-term sustained DPS. The real difference is in insurance vs. a bad string of miss/dodge/parry, and in getting into a 5 CP SnD cycle faster.

 

Zerianne

But 5pt SnD with 3/3 improved is 30 seconds, 27 seconds with only 2/3 improved. Seems 3 seconds of SnD downtime per cycle where Ruthlessness doesn't proc should lower a sustained DPS rating.

 

Kobal

pf,

With the imminent swap of Improved SnD and Improved Backstab, could you maybe add Improved Backstab to the customizeable talents, so we can all see how mandatory it really is?

 

• Vulajin

With this exact thing in mind, tonight I compared the DPS of 8/41/2 and 7/41/3 dagger builds by simply modifying the Backstab formulas based on how many points I assumed the build would have in Improved Backstab. 8/41/2 came out on top.

I think for the most part, Improved Backstab will still be very important.

 

Zoro

The dps cycle runs on averages.
With 2/3 Improved S&D and Relentless you are missing 30 energy a cycle to maintain 100% uptime.

With 3/3 Ruthlessness, _on average_ you will reclaim 36 energy each cycle (60% chance of gaining one BS combo point)

Hence, _on average_ you will maintain 100% uptime with 2/3 Imp S&D and 3/3 Ruthlessness.

As Kalman points out though, you're boned if you get a single Dodge/Parry/Miss. Equally, failing to hit a Ruthlessness at a depleted energy point in your cycle will screw you for the next cycle.

Sadly, I don't think you can even contemplate cutting corners like that with other moves.

Hemo sets up a stable 5/5 rotation with 100% uptime if you use rupture, losing 8 energy a cycle (30s) - S&D downtime is almost unoticeable, but requires 3 Imp S&D, Relentless and Ruthlessness for that.

Sin Strike sets up 3/5/5 with 100% uptime at a deficit of 18 energy over the cycle (45s). That's bit more noticeable.
Again, 3 S&D, Relentless and Ruthlessness.

You can't think of skimping on those points for Hemo/SS if you're to come close to keeping 100% S&D uptime. Their small cycle loses are not that big when you consider it amounts to a second missed off the end of a cycle due to a failed ruthlessness proc. You'd barely notice that.

Interestingly though.. Hemo offers some very odd cycles if you go the whole hog.

1/3 (Hemo, S&D, Hemo, Hemo, Hemo, Rupture)

Works out at 1 energy gain per cycle on average for 100% uptime, and on base abilities more damage than a 5/5 rupture cycle.
(Only 1s of rupture DT at 54.6 dps - 92% uptime, compared to 14s of downtime at 65 dps - 53% uptime)
The downside to it is you only have 1s of non-cooldown to play with each cycle, so your timing has to be spot on.

Edit: Occured to me I should point out 5/5 produces 0.33 Hemos/sec whilst 1/3 produces only 0.31. However the added rupture damage (not including AP bonus to rupture) works out at 15.78 dps, meaning you'd have to be Hemoing for on average 789 before 5/5 balances the books. Eminently doable.
However adding in the AP bonus to rupture I worked out I'd need to on average Hemo for 1424. Currently my average Hemo is 900 ish fully buffed. I suspect that even fully T3ed 1/3 beats 5/5.

Unless I'm missing osme math somewhere but I can't see it and I checked four times now!

 

koaschten

sounds fun :)