Zoro

It's something that's been bugging me ever since I specced Hemo.

1 point S&D offer the best time/energy return, and I intuitively felt that you might be able to build a cyle based of it. I mentioned that elsewhere and pf's 'under no circumstance are lower S&D more efficient' response didn't ring true to me. Call me contrary but I reckoned there must be a setup where it was true and Hemo the most likely source.

Was only as I was scribbling energy cycles down in response to the 2/3 S&D in CD build that I actually put pen to paper and applied the math.

I'll try it out tonight in nax - should be a Patch night - and see if it genuinely does kick out more dps.

 

Lace

With my gear, etc. a 6/41/4 combat daggers build (1 point in SnD) will give more DPS than a 8/41/2 combat daggers build (3 points in SnD); due to cycles. However 5/41/5 (0 points in Snd) is less than 8/41/2, so yes there are definetely situations where only 1 or 2 points in SnD is the optimal spec.

 

Kody

6/41/4 isn't possible because of the fact Imp. Backstab and Imp. SnD are switched.

 

Kody

Doh, my bad. Had a rogue log on test and Imp. SnD was still in Assassination. Hmm, interesting then.

With my current gear, here are the dps numbers the spreadsheet gives for various builds.

Combat Daggers

Profile: http://ctprofiles.net/320433

Build: 6/41/4: 595.77 unbuffed / 822.24 typical raid buffs - this is the best combat daggers build

Hemo Builds

This was kind of odd to see, is this due to some kind of bug in the spreadsheet? Or is this because of +weapon skill being changed?

Profile: http://ctprofiles.net/4745397

Build 1: 21/0/30 - 624.57 unbuffed / 864.14 typical raid buffs
Build 2: 11/0/40 - 621.79 unbuffed / 862.12 typical raid buffs

These are all items I have available to me as of the patch today. Oddly enough, even putting Maexxna's Fang in mainhand and moving HoD to offhand doesn't perform as well as the 21/0/30 hemo build.

 

Melnor

Yea I can attest to Snore's results. I plugged in my gear into the new spreadsheet and just did a normal 15/31/5 Combat Dagger build with my HoD as main hand and it came out to less DPS than a cold blood hemo build (21/0/30) with CotBD. I just can't logically see how a build with 0 points in the combat tree can out dps one with 30+. The Combat Tree is the DPS tree, right? :)

 

GrizleyCQ

Combat tree depends heavily on white damage. White damage was completely destroyed by the skill nerfs. Its not hard to see how combat is relatively less powerful post patch.

The only real improvement combat has seen in the area of dps is the skill talent, that got taken away and all the new ass/sub talents are still there. IMO combat needs help.

 

Maddness

Make sure "Include Hemo Debuff DPS Estimate" isn't checked :)

http://hosted.filefront.com/rroguee

 

◊ Hanos

That removed about 70 DPS...

PvP = The Reason We Can't Have Nice Things

 

Baiko

Are you sure that's the "best combat daggers build", though? You're trading full opportunity, imp backstab ranks, relentless strikes, and lethality for potency and SA - which is a negative trade off in my eyes.

Last I heard, the 15/31/5 is still the reigning combat daggers champion.

Alternatively, you might want to play with something like 20/26/5, if you can live without AR, since WE is weak now.

 

Kody

Yeah, 15/31/5 was about 9 dps lower.

 

Baiko

Odd. You remembered to adjust the crit rate of backstab to reflect only having 1 rank of Improved Backstab, right? The sheet always assumes 3/3 - Cell I20 on the Unbuffed DPS sheet should use a 0.1 modifier in place of 0.3 for 6/41/4.

 

Un

When I was messing around with the spreadsheet the other day I was also showing a 7/41/3 combat dagger build to be about 9dps better than the traditional 15/31/5 build, but that was before the Imp. SnD <-> Imp. BS switch, and I highly doubt if that talent switch goes in there will be any other option besides 15/31/5, considering 8/41/2 was giving me just barely better dps than 15/31/5, and this seems to be one of those circumstances where you have to take the spreadsheet with a grain of salt. Yes, in encounters where you maintain absolute 100% time on target 8/41/2 or 7/41/3 might edge out 15/31/5, but my instincts are telling me that with just a little time off target, where you get a little energy regen, 15/31/5 will pull ahead. And how many encounters are true 100% ToT encounters?

 

Kody

This is based on improved snd being in assassination still. It's up in the air whether that's the case(this is mostly a build for raiding until TBC).

 

Zoro

Regretably Patchwerk didn't want to play plast night as we lacked enough healers online. Couldn't even get a 40 man raid together. Seems the pre-Xmas/Xpac malaise has set in early and we'll achieve zip till next year.

Hence didn't get a chance to try out 1/3 rotation as it really doesn't apply to Tyr's hand...

 

Andeh

This is a little off-topic, but I figure a lot of you will be likewise concerned. Has anyone heard of a working port/knockoff/fix for DiscoDice? Both DiscoDice and CandyDice (which claims to replace it) have some serious problems. DDice doesn't detect if you re-apply SnD while its currently active. CDice also seems to do that, along with not properly detecting talents for various things. :(

 

Ghiest

This is crazy ..

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...30301213501150

In the new spread sheet with aqr/cts hemo 11/40 spec my sustained dps equals around 717 (702 without Murder)

but full combat dagger with Maex fang/pugio I get around 711. (and that was with ACLG too).

I must be doing something wrong here ...

 

GrizleyCQ

Crazy.

Hit the button once, get two posts. Edit one, both change...EJ forums are acting strange... I can't see the new posts in the TBC rogue thread either.

Anyway, do you have the estimate hemo debuff dps button checked?

 

Tel

Having same issues

 

Tirigarde

If I want to simulate the curse of the red debuff in the vaelastrasz fight, how do I go about adding 40 more energy generation per second to the excel sheet? Do I click on the Buffed DPS tab, then input 40 under Energy/2 min?

 

Avair

This may have been discussed already, but playing around with the spreadsheet shows the sheer power of combat potency and relentless strikes. And in combination, they seem to stack even better than they do alone. I ran the #'s and raid buffed with my gear (8/8-ish BF, TF/Iblis) I get:

* 1/1 Relentless + 5/5 Combat Potency - 772 DPS (+84)
* 1/1 R+ 0/5 CP - 715 DPS (+27)
* 0/1 R + 5/5 CP - 728 DPS (+40)
* 0/1 R+ 0/5 CP - 688 DPS

84 DPS (9% of total DPS) from 6 talent points alone is pretty hot.

 

pf

You could put it in there. And actually, that tab now represents energy/second and not 2 minutes, so simply add 40-50 to that cell and you should be fine. However, be warned that you need to add a more optimal cycle for this situation for 100% accuracy. If you do not know how to add a cycle, look at the current cycles on the cycle sheet and copy/paste the data you want to use in there.

 

daia

Don't think I've seen a post in this topic (just checking the forums now, haven't seen the entire bug report thread) on deadly yet, but wasn't this patch supposed to bring along 40 debuffs along with individual deadly poison stacks for each rogue? I had just finished raiding naxx, we had only finished a single boss (razuv) instead of our normal 1-2 wing clear a night due to lag and d/c'ing, along with lack of addons- between 3 rogues with mutilate (another rogue and I were 46/0/5, with 5/5 vile/improved apply, other was 41/0/10), the one to get the first stack (the one that was 41/0/10 without imp psn talents) got ALL of our procs, just like it would have happened last patch. Deadly didn't drop once the entire fight, hence the stack never switched to another rogue.

Does anyone know if this is a bug or I'm just missing something? I've been away from the forums for a while so I'm not completely certain the individual stacks were supposed to be implemented in 2.0, this really ruins my mutilate idea as far as raiding goes :(.

 

discofiend

heya andeh,

did you get the newest one (posted about 9pm EST)?

http://www.discofiend.com/DiscoDice.zip

if you did and you're still having this issue, please let me know. I'd test it myself, but... my server is fubar'd :-(

edit: i *did* change how SnD is detected for this patch, so i suppose that could do it, but it seems like i refreshed it quite a few times while it still had several seconds left as active (and cursed myself for my sloppy playing) in naxx tonight.

 

pf

Mod is working fine for me. Also, it would be nice to not have to look into the lua to figure out how to turn the c/d timer bar off :)

 

Andeh

Naw Disco, I didn't see your post on wowforums until after AQ. >.> I'll give it a shot as soon as WoW lets me outta WSG.