Yeah okay but all that doesn't matter really. 3/3 snd -> 2/3 snd is (without ruthlessness procs) a loss in dps on the order of 3 seconds lost per cycle. Ruthlessness is a 60% chance to proc when maxed out. so, 60% of the time you are getting a combopoint which makes up for the lack of SnD talents, and 40% of the time you are not. I think it is pretty clear that putting that "spare point" in SnD instead of ruthlessness will yield better sustained DPS, even in pure theorycraft. In practice, it will yield a lot more due to the dodge factor, as well as trash performance.

The spreadsheat should show a higher DPS for putting that last point in SnD. If it's not, there is an error in the modelling IMO. I'd be interested in any any math whatsoever that puts Ruthlessness higher than Imp SnD. I'm not above admitting error, but I just dont' see it here.

To sum up: 3/3 Snd > 3/3 Ruthlessnes. Prove me wrong.

I tried out the 1/3 rotation a bit last night(I went with hemo - it's as strong as the sheet suggests), and it felt like a waste of energy. Rupture uptime was far greater than the time it took to generate 3 combo points with 3/3 Imp SnD and 3/3 Ruthlessness. I think a 1/4 rotation might be a bit more fitting if you have Ruthlessness. I'll do a bit more playing around with it on tonight's raid.

Umm, 1 combo point finishers are almost always a bad idea. I know the sheet did not recommend it either because it isnt even in there. Try a 5s/5r or 5s/4r rotation instead.

The modeling is perfectly fine. With 3/3 ruthless and 2/3 snd, you can keep snd up 100% of the time. Once you get to a 5cp rotation, you have 10 seconds of slack energy that can compensate for dumb luck. The chances of having snd drop are extremely low and not worth worrying about. That said, having 3/3 ruth and 2/3 snd should produce the exact same dps as 3/3 snd and 2/3 ruthlessness unless you have 3 piece vieled shadows bonus. With the vieled shadows bonus, you do more dps with 3/3 ruthless and 2/3 snd on the sheet, and in game (on lengthy boss fights).

Anyway, it has been stated before that 3/3 snd and 2/3 ruthless creates more slack energy and less chance of losing snd time than 2/3 snd and 3/3 ruthless. If you knew how to examine the data from the cycle sheet in more detail, you could realize this as well.

I didn't say a thing about where it was best to put five points across S%D and Ruthlessness. I was just pointing out why a 2/3 S&D , 3/3 Ruthlessness spend still maintains a 100% uptime.

As I threw the math away, and didn't look at 3/3 S&D / 2/3 Ruthlessness, I'll have to go off the to of my head.

The last point in S&D gains you 3s. That's 30 energy.
The last point in Ruthlessness takes you from 40% to 60%. That's 24 to 36, gaining you 12 energy.

Clearly of the two 3/3 S&D and 2/3 Ruthlessness is the better.
However, given the other way round can still maintain a 100% uptime - as Pf says it makes 0 difference to dps.

All that it impinges on is the amount of 'spare' energy you have floating about. As a Troll, you have to factor a 10 energy loss every 2 mins. Other than that, it's just covering your back in case of a streak of dodges/misses etc.

As to the 1/3 cycle, I'll be trying it out tonight if we actually get a raid going.
It's not an energy efficient cycle, it's about combo points/ time efficiency.

Rupture (Rank 7) - 3 point - 618 over 12s for 25 energy
Rupture (Rank 7) - 4 point - 798 over 14s for 25 energy
S&D (Rank 2) - 1 point - 9s (becomes 13s with 3/3 S&D) for 25 energy

With 3 point Ruptures...

Time: 0s 1s 2s 3s 4s 5s 6s 7s 8s 9s 10s 11s 12s 13s 14s
Move: Hemo S&D Relent Hemo Hemo Hemo Rupture Relent
Energy Out: 14 25 14 35 35 25
Energy In: 5 20 20 15 20 20 20 20 20

Total Out: 148
Total In: 150 (Actual cycle is 13s not 14, so only 50% of the time will you catch the 14s tick in your cycle)

Hemo 1 and 2 are 14 energy to account for 3/3 Ruthlessness procs (60% chance of 'free' Hemo)
S&D uptime runs from 1s to 14s (which is the 0s of your next cycle).
Rupture ticks from 5s to 4s of the next cycle.

Obviously the hemos/finishers are more spaced out than that, but it should be clear that once into a cycle 100% S&D uptime can be maintained with near 100% rupture uptime.

Now if you switch to a 1/4 scheme...

Time: 0s 1s 2s 3s 4s 5s 6s 7s 8s 9s 10s 11s 12s 13s 14s
Move: Hemo S&D Relent Hemo Hemo Hemo Hemo Rupture Relent
Energy Out: 14 25 14 35 35 35 25
Energy In: 5 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20

Total Energy Out: 183
Total Energy In: 155

Now, you're losing 28 energy a cycle. That's not sustainable given the short nature of the cycle (13s).
Further, the 4 point rupture would tick from 6s of one cycle to 7s of the next. You'd be consistently wasing one tick of rupture damage (114). Actually, even with that you're still doing more damage than 3 point ruptures.

The point is it's just not sustainable to run a cycle at a 28 energy deficit every 13s.

I suppose you might be able to get away with a 1/3/1/4 cycle as you're then down to a 26 energy deficit every 26s, something which is much more manageable.

C.f. 5/5 Cycle.
Both maintain a 100% S&D uptime.
5/5 Cycle maintains a 5 point Rupture for 16s (1000 damage) out of 30s, but ekes out 0.02 Hemos/s more.

Given the AP scaling with rupture now, I suspect the near 100% rupture time beats that marginal hemo/s gain.

Is there a spreadsheet for mutiliate yet? (or even a mutilate calculator)
I'm interested how big a factor the dagger choices are,e.g. pugio vs rank 14 for OH.

rochan:

rogue.bleedo.net/tbc

This has a sheet named unbuffed fw cycles. Look at it for some mutilate formulas. Mutilate cycles are not complete on it however, but you can get a nice feel for which dagger to use. Generally, I look at the 5s/5e cycle damage at the bottom when comparing weapons. I am hoping to get a mutilate till 4cp cycle soon and check it out as that is what I have been trying to do in raids.

Zerianne: You're missing that on the cycles where you get a Ruthlessness proc, you can "save" energy to get you through the cycles where you don't get a Ruthlessness proc. In practice, both will have 100% uptime because you have an energy buffer and net positive energy. The reason 3/3 SnD is superior is because the net positive energy is higher, allowing you to get past bad luck a little bit faster.

Incidentally, the fixed size of the energy buffer is why the net positive *amount* is relatively unimportant - it isn't big enough to allow any occasional 5/4 cycles, for example, so the most important thing is simply that it be positive net energy.

I think I found a strange behavior in blizzards way of calculating stamina (and agi?) bonus from vitality.
My stamina from items is 208. Multiplied with 1.04 it would result in 216.32 but gets truncated(!) to 216. Same goes for the 74 (nightelf) base stamina (74 * 1.04 = 76.96 -> truncated to 76). So instead of 4275.8 health I get 4263.



And sorry for my bad English but I'm not a native speaker :)

I'm beginning to wonder if I should really stick to 3 Bloodfang pieces for my Mutilate spec, at least for fights that last a little longer. Yesterday my poisons were gone after the first phase of C'Thun.

I assume that Improved Poisons and the Bloodfang bonus stack additively, since if I multiply the numbers I get an absurdly low time value, lower than they already are (Deadly Poison would be depleted after 4 minutes and 17 seconds).

Let's see, I have a 1.8 mainhand and 1.7 offhand dagger, SnD is always running, increasing the weapon speed by 30%. Additionally Mutilate hits every 6 seconds, with both weapons.

Instant Poison has a 20% chance to proc, increased by Improved Poisons and Bloodfang to 35%. It has 115 charges.
Mainhand: 115/(((1/(1.8/1.3))+(1/6))*0.35)= 6m 10s
Offhand: 115/(((1/(1.7/1.3))+(1/6))*0.35)= 5m 53s
So after roughly 6 minutes all of my poisons are gone. Every fight lasting longer than this I either have to reapply my poisons or go on without them.

Deadly Poison is even worse. 120 charges but 30% base chance to proc.
Mainhand: 120/(((1/(1.8/1.3))+(1/6))*0.45)= 5m
Offhand: 120/(((1/(1.7/1.3))+(1/6))*0.45)= 4m 46s
Here already after max. 5 minutes all my poisons are used up.

Seeing that multiple boss fights last longer than 5 minutes, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to break the 3 set bonus of Bloodfang and replace some gear with Bonescythe. The bonus offers roughly a 8 DPS increase, but of course only if there are any poisons left to be applied.


//OT
Seems apostrophes are currently being escaped by the server, at least in the preview they are.

Regarding the 3 piece Bloodfang bonus, I broke mine a while ago when I could upgrade 2 of the final 3 pieces... it basically wasn't worth replacing until that point. Depending on the fight once you can completely swap out Bloodfang, normally you are better off if you do, due to the other stats you are gaining. While the DPS might be close, odds are you are getting more stamina, AC, etc, which doesn't directly contribute to DPS, but helps keep you alive. However, I still keep 3 pieces in my bag for Loatheb, because Instant Poison can and does crit, and that makes it worth more then the other pieces when my armor has nothing to do with my ability to survive. I would say preserve 3 piece as long as you can, but don't pass on upgrades in order to preserve it.

nm

Is the cycle analyzer accounting for the additional energy produced by Combat Potency with a haste buff? I ask because toggling Warchief's Blessing on and off does not appear to affect energy efficiency for any of the cycles, although it's intuitive that a significant haste should produce enough energy to move up to, say, 5s/3e/5e from 5s/5e with a combat swords build.

Good catch. No haste effects outside of blade flurry and snd are accounted for. Will fix this.

Made a few changes tonight as well.
http://rogue.bleedo.net/tbc/

2-roll yellow attacks.
Seperated finisher and instant tables.
Mutilate should now proc offhand procs.
Quick recovery encompasses all types of cycles.
All hastes should affect Combat potency.
Little bit more polish.


Anyway, quickly comparing 15-41-5 vs 41/20 on the sheet, it looks as if 41/20 will be able to keep up with 15-41-5 most of the time. Considering how much more enjoyable Mutilate is to raid with, I'm hoping this is actually the case. Also, 41/0/5 compares very well dps wise to 15-31-5. Only with 4/9 BS does 15-31-5 really pull ahead.

Not that it's hugely important but in the spreadsheet, if you select Ruthlessness without selecting Relentless it tanks the DPS calc. Example:

DPS without Relentless/Ruthless: 516.20 Unbuffed
DPS with 3/3 Ruthless, but 0/1 Relentless: 267.18 Unbuffed
DPS with 3/3 Ruthless, and 1/1 Relentless: 569.17 Unbuffed

Edit: Now I messed around the with the talents and can't duplicate the error =/. I'll try to find it again.

Edit2: Found it again. When you have Mutilate selected, with 3/3 Ruthlessness, but 0/1 Relentlessness it causes the DPS to go drastically down.

Also, if the spreadsheet is correct, I'm shocked to see this with my gear (1197 AP, 27.5% Crit w/o Dagger spec, +15% hit w/o Prec):

46/0/5: Unbuffed DPS is 625.23. Buffed DPS is 772.09
15/31/5: Unbuffed DPS is 565.22. Buffed DPS is 729.34
6/41/4: Unbuffed DPS is 583.87. Buffed DPS is 751.82

Can this be right? Mutilate > CD!? Something seems off =/.

Additionally, my 41/20/0 build is showing as +25.0 Buffed DPS than 15/41/5

Myself and another rogue who have almost identical gear both went mutilate for the first raid after the patch, he wasn't happy with it so he changed to back to combat daggers (15/31/5).

The next night in naxx we did spider wing and a few other boss' and not 1 fight did combat daggers win.

Of course the best place for combat daggers would be patchwerk but still the difference is only minimal and as stated by pf, only with the very best gear does CD theoretically pull ahead.

For my gear the difference in the spreadsheet is 813 (mut) vs 820 (CD) but in almost every fight I'm sure mutilate will pull out a significant lead becuase of its versitility and obviously its a TON more fun to play in PvE and PvP as stated by many previous posters.

in my oppinion combat daggers is a broken build at level 60, you have to get so many useless fillers in combat to grab a few decent ones, when level 70 comes and you can get combat potency (the real gem in combat) it will at least become a viable build again, currently I see no reason for anyone to spec it unless you only have 1 decent dagger.

Its based on current. Probably better in its current form than the BC form, but I have not looked at it yet.

Thanks, I left some bad data when transferring it over to the cycle sheet. Also, Mutilate from the data I've inputted into the sheet usually comes out pretty close to CD. Did you select improved backstab when using CD?

No, no I didn't =P. Didn't see that it was included as an option now and is no longer assumed.

New Results:

6/41/4 = 813 Buffed
46/0/5 = 775 Buffed

I think I'll still stick with Mutilate as 90% of fights aren't Patchwerk and if I stay CD my mind will go numb.

I put it in there in case we get 2.0.2 before the TBC is actually released. I hope to get another version out tonight that will have a 3cp+ cycle to compare it to the 4cp+ just in case there is some validity to it. Eventually put in non-snd numbers since quite a few builds in tbc will not have imp snd. But, look for another version out tonight with a few fixes and if 3cp+ is even close to 4cp+, I will add it as a valid mutilate option (right now, only 4cp+ is considered). And, like always, if anything looks funny, say something because there are probably a lot of bugs in the sheet currently.

Is it safe to assume the dream sheet and numbers aren't working correctly just yet and this is why it was hidden?

The dream and next-stat sheets are put on temporary hold. This is listed on the mainpage of the sheet. With next-stat being put on hold, crusader is currently based upon that, so realize that its numbers are incorrect.

Personally the difference between combat dagger/mutilate with normal buffs and consumables is around 20 dps. It *seems* as gear grows the gap narrows despite the importance of OH spec.