Hello all,

New to this form, lots of great info here thanks. I have a question about the following


I had read in another form that has some good posters (ie not official forms). That the fact that with SA your SS, BS ect. are not dodged is actually a nerf. The reasoning is the following b/c you get large energy refund from dodges and attacks that would have been dodges w/o the talent can’t be crits only normal hits. This means that it is really a so /so talent and the only real buff is the +8% which works out to less than 8% b/c of the above. In response to this I heard that blizz was changing SA to be finishers can not be dodged and giving it a 10% damage boost as opposed to the current 8%. It seems to me that this would be a nice buff and not actually worse?

But you say here that the tbc SA will not be as good?

I am in no way saying you are wrong I'm just confused and wondering if someone could break it down for me.

Thanks

The reason for that is because yellow (special) attacks follow a 2 roll system, not a one roll system like white (normal attacks). This means that hit/miss and hit/crit are seperate calculations. Thus a dodge that changed to a hit could result in a crit, while that is impossible in a 1 roll system. The result means that, if a mob had a 6% dodge rate, you would gain dps equal to the energy lost on the 6% of dodged backstabs/sinister strikes in an extended dps scenario.

Recent research has shown that special abilities are on a two roll system. Therefore, removing your dodge chance increases your chance to crit.

With the old one roll theory you would be right, it would be some kind of nerf.

First off, I was the one to post about SA as being dodged only lowers your dps. At that point in time it was a horrendous talent with the great blade twisting right above providing 0 dps by speccing past 31 in combat. Anyway, it was based on the assumption of a 1-roll system which has since been shown to be wrong, but as just being dodged, the talent still sucked. Fast forward a few months and you get combat potency which means swords/daggers will bump up to a better cycle. Combat daggers will no longer follow 5s but now 3/5/5 and combat swords will follow 5s/5e. This makes a rather large difference. Now, 5s/5e is easy to keep up with a fast enough sword offhand, so thats not where the real power of non-dodged specials was. It was in the very fragile 3/5/5 dagger cycle that was just barely making it. If you get an unlucky string of dodged backstabs and no-cp procs, your cycle will not work. Well, it took out one of the bad random factors. With swords, this -dodge effect isnt nearly as good because it has a lot more slack energy meaning it would take a very bad string of events to knock you off a cycle.

http://rogue.bleedo.net/

Version 2.1.0 - 12/13/2006

Large Changes
Added Mutilate. Find Weakness and Seal Fate work for Mutilate model only. (3cp+ and 4cp+ are only current FW cycles)
Combat potency added.
Surprise attacks added.
Vitality, Sinister Calling, Master Poisoner, Quick Recovery added
Yellow attacks now follow a 2-roll system.
Added Improved Backstab and Improves Sinister Strike.
Old glancing blow/+skill system replaced with new mechanics.
Dream gear/buffs do not work with 2.0.1 talents, Next-stat sheet is not up to date either causing crusader to be slightly incorrect

Small changes
changed backstab and sinister strike miss cost to 12/8. (21 energy ticks seem to be independent of targets dodging attack)
New finisher hit table to separate for surprise attacks and make modelling of things that use backstab easier.
Critical strike value displayed on front sheet includes +skill now. Visual change only.
Backstab and evis ranks are now trained and the option to use rank 8 is removed.
Several agi heavy items have updated stat values.

PF, thanks for all the work on this.

Is there any chance you could model in Unleashed Rage (shaman +AP talent) to the horde buffs? I have near 100% uptime with it when I'm partied with our enhancement shaman.

First of all: very nice work :)

I tested a bit with the spreadsheet and here was my results:

Buffed: AP: 2224, Crit: 35,75%, hit: 13%
HemoPvE (11/0/40) - Buffed Total DPS: 851,07 (MH: GM Longsword, OH: Harbinger of Doom)

Buffed: AP: 1956, Crit: 37,27%, hit: 18%
CombatDaggers (15/31/5) - Buffed Total DPS: 822,32 (MH: Death's sting, OH Harbinger of Doom)

11/0/40 seems to be extremely powerful now (~30dps more than Combatdaggers), eventhough I find it hard to believe how it can be better than 30% more crit on backstab, oh spec, +5crit, BF, AR etc. I guess I just have to try it out and experience it :)

Btw. you should add hunter's mark (hunters with 5/5 talents in imp. hunters mark add to melee AP aswell)

Hunters also have Expose Weakness, and the Warrior Blood Rage ability. I might be remembering the warrior ability name wrong.

Those all might not be included because they're procs on the mob, and not buffs on the character.

One minor error that is fixable on our own... Druid LoTP is now 5% (not 3%) crit bonus.

Thanks for all your hard work pf.

You might be right, but I'm pretty sure Hunter's mark is being kept up 100% of the time in bossfights (last 2 mins iirc). But hey, it was just a suggestion :)

Pf, quick question, when trying to check the DPS on a Mutilate build the DPS isn't anywhere close, and I don't have the right cycles unless I put 1 in Mutilate r4, which is a lv 70 talent. The only reason I started doing this was because it was in the download of a previous version. I have a hard time believing that the difference between rank 3 and rank 4 is really 147 unbuffed DPS considering it is maybe 40 damage every 6 seconds.

Did you mean to have that talent option be Mutilate Rank 3 or am I missing something. So far I have been very happy with Mutilate and selecting Rank 4 the DPS is very close to Combat except when highly buffed when combat pulls away a little (up to 40 some DPS for me), however if it is more then that I might force myself to go back to combat for raids.

Thanks in advance.

Turn off "Include Hemo Debuff DPS Estimate and your results will go down significantly.

In a 40 man raid with 1 Hemo Rogue you might burn all the charges most of the time, but that goes to thier damage total not yours. In terms of what you will see on the Damage Meter, Combat Daggers and Mutilate will probably beat Hemo right now, I know it is for us thus far (Hemo and other Sub specs are getting destroyed in Damage compared to Mutilate or Combat Swords). Hemo is better, but it is not a PvE Spec.

Of course... just something on the to do list down the road. I would expect once TBC goes live changes will be minimal.

Thanks again :)

Tri-spec hemo (11/20/30) actually looks pretty damn good at level 70 as a PVE spec. You lose some of the individual dps you'd get from combat swords/maces, but not a lot by the look of it. What it's going to come down to is your weaponspeed, buffs/debuffs, and base gear.

I've seen the thread at blizz forum, so my first question to pf is: Do you want notes here or on the blizz forum?

A small thing I've noticed this far is that "Leader of the pack" still gives +3% crit.

Thanks alot for my favourite tool.

/nj

I have a question regarding Weapon Expertise. I noticed that my buffed dps goes up from 784.86 to 791.11 with 2/2 WE. So I see WE is still useful post-2.0? I thought it was changed that +weapon is fairly minimal. Well it is fairly minimal comparing to pre-2.0 but it is still better than I thought.

Thanks!

Well, as 15/31/5 I took weaponex simply because it still is an increase in dps, if not a great one. Compared to reduced CDs on evasion or blade twisting, I think I made the right choice.

On top of that, I couldn't find a good 20/26/5 build that would beat it, so I really think you might as well just take it if you're going combat.

I've been playing around with the spreadsheet tonight, and it's amazing how well Band of Accuria continues to scale.

At least with my current gear, it models as the best to pair with Unnatural Forces... assuming the rest of my gear doesn't change. Since BS 8-piece isn't modeled yet (or at least not active as far as i can tell), I would guess wearing BS ring as your 8th set piece would be better than Accuria since it's a close 3rd place. In between is Band of UF/Band of Reanimation pair.

New version out due to a quite large formula change to mutilate. I was using the wrong crit tables for mutilate. Anyway, mutilate spec in this version beats combat daggers handily. I'm not quite sure this is the case in raiding yet, but if you can be as patient as the model suggests (not using FW on eviscerate unless it was after only 1 mutilate), you should be able to perform really well.


Version 2.1.1 - 12/14/2006
Mutilate r4 renamed to Mutilate to get rid of confusion since it was r3 anyway.
Offhand mutilate hits can now proc hand of justice attacks.
Fixed problem with mutilate cycle model causing it to use the wrong snd uptime on some cycles.
Mutilate was using the wrong hit tables, and thus was undervalued, the new value is noticably larger.
Mutilate cycles were using the wrong crit% to determine probabilities. This has been fixed.
Next-stat +1ap should now be correct, and it follows that crusader should be correct as well.
Next-stat +skill fixed to follow +.14% crit and +.04% hit per 1skill. This is an assumption and might not be accurate.
The rest of the next-stat sheet is not updated yet, but should be accurate for non-mutilate builds and close for mutilate builds.

What has been wrong with Mutilate, i.e. which hit tables did you use?

And for Mutilate, it seems that the offhand swing does not happen at the very same time as the mainhand, there seems to be an small delay or check between both (which is logical, as when your Mutilate is dodged, you only see one combat message for it).
Is was killing a rat (murder!) with mutilate, and only my mainhand swing showed up (along with one white hit). So it seems there is something like a conditional statement in the code, something like IF mainhand_hitorcrit THEN rand(offhand_hitorcrit).
Your offhand swing cannot be dodged or parried if your mainhand already landed, so such an statement makes sense.
Also this short statement seems to give the server enough time to notice that the target is actually dead by now and so it doesn't perform the offhand swing.

Now I don't know if that changes anything at all (probably not), but it's good to know. ;)

I was using the hit table that did not remove the 5% dodge. This would not be a problem if done correctly, but dodge is already accounted for in another calculation. So, it was doubly counting 5% dodge (and the second time it cost full energy) into the equation. Apparently, I made a goof and left it in for buffed 4cp+ as well. This will not have an affect on your actual dps unless it allows 3cp+ to take over using the better mutilate formula.

Currently I'm wondering how poison procs are calculated.

According to what I have read the chance to proc is additive, therefore Instant Poison (20%) + Improved Poisons (10%) + Bloodfang bonus (5%) = a 35% chance to proc a poison.

Small calculation:
My offhand was weilding Instant Poison VI, with a speed of 1.7. My mainhand is speed 1.8, therefore my offhand made 51.43% of my white swings. Also I am Mutilate specced, and Mutilate does an attack with both hands. Eviscerate(?) and Sinister Strike only attack with the mainhand and therefore can only proc poisons form that hand (which was Deadly Poison for that fight).

I had 491 white swings on Patchwerk, of which 392 did either hit, crit or glance.
So my offhand had 51.43% of these swings, being 253 total and 202 landed.
Additionally I made 52 Mutilates, 47 landed.

This gives:
305 total swings
249 swings landed on target

During that fight I had 126 Instant Poison procs (remember, my mainhand was Deadly Poison). Note that Instant Poison VI only has 115 charges, so that would mean that fully resisted poison procs do not reduce the number of charges left on your weapon. So with the 16 fully resisted poison procs that makes 110 charges used.

Anyway, so I had 126 poison procs on 305 of my total swings.
126/305 = 41.3% of my swings procced a poison.

If I only count the landed hits, my poison proc rate goes waaay up.
126/249= 50.6% of my landed hits procced a poison, which seems unreasonable.


Still, 41.3% seems quite high for an expected 35% value. So I wonder if it's really additive and not rather multiplicative, such as 1.2*1.1*1.05 = 1.386 = 38.6% chance to proc.

Also: do poisons proc of missed/dodged swings? They should, according to the proc rates.

I really think offhand poison procs with mutilate are bugged somehow. It might be the bloodfang bonus, I'm not sure, but what you are experiencing is exactly what I experience when I have my slower offhand consistently proc more poisons than my faster mainhand. I ran dual instant one night with mutilate and not once did my 1.6mh have more procs than my 1.8 speed offhand once the charges left dropped below 100.