1) If you didn't set points into improved Eviscerate, Rupture should be better. The question is, do you have enough combo points and NOT have skilled Eviscerate.

2) Envenom isn't mitigated by armor. Unless you have an enemy with basically 0% armor reduction, Eviscerate does less damage.
Don't know about the poison stacks though, as I'm not in the beta.

Is there any method to search within a post? I have been tyring for a while now to find out if dagger/fist weapon specs require you to offhand a dagger/fist weapon respectively for your offhand to get the 5% bonus.

However when I try to use the search function on this website I get this error:

The above error occurs everrryy time. I so then started a fun manual search. I found a shit heap post asking about fist weapon spec. So great, I open it up and see an EJ member shit heaped it, and then linked to a 104 page post telling the guy to use the search function next time =/. A post which I already have been reading with interest as it deals with a lot of new rogue talents etc, and I must have missed the answer to the above question and manually reading through 104 pages of stuff I already read is a bit much =/. Oh, and google searches CONSANTLY turn up a page with the line "is fisting fun" not the most ideal work reading materials.

Hm, I just searched for "fist crit offhand" and received results.
Didn't want to go through the 2 pages though, but as far as I know, the crit bonus is only applied to that hand if you are weilding a dagger/fist (and not a sword for example).

On a related note and a derail, do elemental sharpening stones only apply the 2% crit to the corresponding hand aswell? Meaning that applying it to your offhand as a rogue basically would be just a waste.

Cheers and also an interesting point.

I do find it odd then that it changes your character sheet to display an updated crit % if you only weild it in the mainhand. I guess the displayed %crit chance is in fact your mainhand %crit chance then.

And if fist weapon spec works this way, I would assume that the elemental sharpening stones only affect the weapon they are on.


Hmm, now I need to work out if R14 MH claw + pugio is better as comnbat fists than R14 MH claw + R14 OH claw.

Or sigh, maybe I will just go for seal fate daggers, the burst is amazing, no need to poison the target, so its quite a flexible fast grind spec that couples to make PvP easier, PLUS with backstab you get the 30% crit bonus that will not get affected by levelling 60-70 (whereas my fist weapon combat build will slowly go from 34% crit to around 25% crit =/. )

Decisions decisions decisions!

We had basically the same thing happen last night, where Mutilate keeps pace or out performs Combat Swords and Combat Daggers (15/31/5... don't have anyone that has gone 5/41/5 yet). I was #2 for Patchwerk last night by 5-10 DPS behind our best geared Fury Warrior.

However, I am starting to think the spreadsheet isn't quite right anymore. Prior to 2.0 I was getting within a couple DPS of the predicted value on Patchwerk, normally a little lower (maybe 5 DPS) due to waiting to engage.

Currently according to the spreadsheet I should be able to do: 825 DPS buffed and potted (no world buffs), last night on Patchwerk I was at around ~705 DPS, now I probably messed up a cycle or 2 and with better timing of Cold Blood and Tea I might be able to up that by as much as 50 DPS, but I don't see it going up by 120.

Is the Armor Mitigation set to low, or am I missing something? Is anyone else noticing the same thing, that atleast for Mutilate the predicted value and actual values are off by quite a bit?

Edit - How much of a difference does CoR make, since I don't think we have been using that due to low healer turnout.

Hrm. The one thing I'm seeing here is that you are doing almost 30k more in poisons than him. He only does 5k with instant? What's the deal?

Now imagine if blizzard actually allowed mutilate to work with the 4/6/8 piece bonescythe. =) Mutilate has been more powerful than I had imagined coming into this 2.0 patch. I'm actually amazed that blizzard pulled off a fun pvp build and yet a highly viable pve build at the same time.

CoR makes a pretty big difference. Also, if the druid on FF does not have a timer bar, he will not know when it falls off because you cannot see all 40 debuff slots anymore. Losing both of those would drop your dps from 825 to below 700.

We are normally pretty good about keeping FF up, we just haven't been using CoR, and since it wasn't an option I didn't realize it was assumed to be up, either way, good to know.

For those responsible for keeping debuffs up, or even just for Mutilate Rogues etc:

http://wow.curse-gaming.com/en/files...debuff-filter/

Great add-on we have been using since the patch, you can tell it which debuffs to show you, and you can move them wherever you want. For example the raid leader watches for CoR, FF, CoE, CoS, Thunderclap etc. On the other hand all I care about is sunders and poisons, and if one of them is up for the Mutilate Bonus.

As someone else mentioned, the poison numbers from the Combat Daggers guy are absurdly low. Dual instant and not running out of charges probably would have put the combat guy on top, but the margin is still so small that it makes combat seem hardly worth it.

I guess the only real caveat here is that you have to pay more attention and seriously play well to max out your PvE DPS with mutilate. Anyone can put up good numbers and do so consistently with combat. Mash backstab, SnD when necessary, repeat. It's almost difficult to do poorly on Patchwerk with combat.

Take note of the 2 backstabs with 100% crit rate, which I imagine were performed on 8pc Bonescythe procs (a bonus that does *nothing* for combat daggers btw). Sokkou is paying attention to detail and probably working his ass off to get that damage. No insult to Joji, of course. I'm sure he brings his A game to every raid too, but there's not a lot of room for individual effort to shine in a combat build on such a static fight.

Anyway, I'm sure that a lot of the people in this thread would put in similar effort, but not everyone will see these results. Spec matters, but I think a lot of the gap you see in DMs is from people putting in the effort to get the most out of whatever spec they chose. It just so happens that for the longest time, combat not only had the best theoretical DPS, it was also the easiest to play to the fullest.

I parsed about 1000 white attacks with a sword in my main hand a dagger in my offhand (with dagger spec) and found that:

1) my tooltip did not reflect the dagger spec bonus
2) my observed crit rate closely matched the tooltip rate

I did not have the opportunity to do the same with a dagger main and sword offhand, but I have a feeling that dagger spec for both hands is based only on the main hand, which, while counterintuitive and silly, is what the Thottbot-junkies have been telling us for quite a long time.

A bit off-topic of a question, but has anyone tried to pry out of Blizz whether Mutilate will be added to the 4 and 6 piece BS bonus? I've never seen info regarding that.

@graecus there are like a zillion posts on the beta forums.... yet i have to see a blue post in the rogue forums...

Not meaning to start a flame war or anything like that, but I hope it doesn't. Considering we've seen Mutilate rogues with 6/9 keeping or beating Combat Daggers with 6/9, and giving them further energy efficiency just means that one build would easily start outstripping others handily.

Mutilate is already much better than many people thought it would be, keeping pace/beating other builds that everyone scoffed at them even approaching.

It should have already happened before 2.0.1. It is not going to happen because it has not already. It did not happen because it would take more effort than simply adding mutilate to the effected list of spells due to its 2 strike mechanic. They would have to recode how they worked seal fate except it would be slightly more complex. If it was as simple as adding it to the effected list of items (a la black book), it would have been done.

There's no reason they couldn't at least add it to the 6 and 8 piece bonuses, though. I understand the difficulty in adding it to the 4 piece, as much as I'd like it to be there.

I'm just scared that the Imp SnD and Imp BS switch makes mutilate less powerful and CD more powerful in a raid setting.

Sokku's backstab with 8 piece proc detail sparked my intrest here. What exactly are mutilate rogues doing as an ideal DPS cycle?

I've been doing something like this so far:

1. Get 3 points, wait for 70+ energy, SnD.
2. Mutilate x2, (cold blood) evis when expose is at 1 second.
3. Troll berserking if it's up, mutilate either once or twice depending on if I can fit two in the expose, wait for 70+ energy, SnD.
4. Repeat 2-3.

One deadly poison on my offand is enough to keep it going for me without any talents. Other mutilate rogues with improved poisons use instant. Nobody in my raid has vile poisons.

well, Im still trying to figure out the timing, and its going to take me a while. The 8 piece seems to be proccing a ton for me, but managing buffs is getting harder. I am now using a mod called debuff filter. It allows you to scale/move icons for debuffs/buffs that you want to monitor. I monitor expose armor, find weakness, and a couple others now, as well as poison effects on my target. I save my find weakness for times when I have 3 points on the target, and can backstab/evisc while find weakness is still up. I keep finding myself out of sync though, so I probly need to stick with some basics before getting anymore complicated.

It wont be switched until TBC comes out, at which point 41/20 will get imp snd and be fine. It does however hurt non-combat mutilate specs at 70. It also keeps me from getting both imp sprint and endurance. 41/20 would have been a great pvp/pve combo build with imp snd back in assassination and the ability to grab more pvp talents, but its not a big loss like it would be if the move would have been made for 2.0.1.

I try to follow the 4cp+ cycle i modeled in the sheet. Also, I only use Cold blood after a ruthless proc for a quick 4cp evis (ill use it more liberally on trash mobs though), guaranteeing a 4cp finisher after 1 mutilate really pushes your dps up. Basically, I never evis with less than 60 energy, usually try to evis with close to 90 so I can then mutilatex2 + evis under find weakness and still have time to mutilate 2 more times under FW. Always keeping mutilate under the FW effect and getting eviscerate in there if its 4cp after only 1 mutilate and sneak a 5cp evis in there sometimes.

With modeling quite a few different mutilate methods, the 4cp+ cycle was easily the best dps one I could come up with that I could reliably follow without having much snd downtime and could easily replicate in game. Also, I have yet to see someone propose a method that will out-perform it.

It will only be a loss if imp sprint si fixed. Right now its not breaking many snares at all, which made my respec to mutilate a lot easier. Ive hit imp sprint after killing a rogue that crippled me, after leaving the area of a hunters slow trap, while being mind flayed, and moany other snares this patch, and have had it fail to remove my snares an incredibly high number of times.

I should have said 80+ energy, which is the ideal spot to SnD. If you're above 90 you can potentially not cram in a mutiliate before a energy tick if you consider universal cooldown, lag, human error, etc.

I was thinking more of possibly sneaking in 2-3 point ruptures using 4-5 point improved SnDs. Poison talents aren't so hot on horde rogues. If it's too complicated for the spreadsheet it's probably too unpredictable to preform 100% in the actual game on anything but Patchwerk.

It would be nice to use improved expose armor if devistate and reatrded caster DPS didn't exist :-/