Rogue DPS Spreadsheet - Page 2

Farla · 10/19/06, 4:11 PM

a few bug reports:

-mace spec is adding 0.05 (5%) to mace skill
-the checkbox to add hemo debuff dps doesn't seem to apply to buffed dps

◊ Kalman · 10/19/06, 4:23 PM

Originally Posted by Farla

a few bug reports:

-mace spec is adding 0.05 (5%) to mace skill

Not a bug, mace spec adds +1 mace skill per point as well. This is balanced by the fact that Weapon Expertise doesn't.

Farla · 10/19/06, 4:31 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Originally Posted by Farla

a few bug reports:

-mace spec is adding 0.05 (5%) to mace skill

Not a bug, mace spec adds +1 mace skill per point as well. This is balanced by the fact that Weapon Expertise doesn't.

i'm saying that it shows 5.05 as my mace skill if i'm human. :P i know it gives +1 mace skill per point :)

pf · 10/19/06, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by Farla

a few bug reports:

-mace spec is adding 0.05 (5%) to mace skill
-the checkbox to add hemo debuff dps doesn't seem to apply to buffed dps

Ty, I fixed that bug in my current sheet and will release another version today since this is a fairly large issue. I plan on adding the wrong DP5 formulas back into the offhand as well. Hopefully, by this afternoon, all the large bugs will be spotted as people dodge work to play with the new sheet and its more encompassing talent options.

Also, to address the Swords vs dagger horde side. When I put in AQR/Iblis vs Maexx/Hod, I find it comes up about 18 dps short of the daggers. Are you using 5/5 DD bonus for this? The only major change I made to windfury was to have each swing not be given 120% damage. However, the benefits of swords vs daggers would probably push me towards using swords if I were horde, but I do not see them pumping out more damage on a Patchwerk with current gear (assuming equal weaps/gear).

Ren · 10/19/06, 4:39 PM

If TF is anything like a Servo Arm, then the proc can be resisted and crit. Resist rate are like spell resist rates (~17% against a level 63?) and proc crit % is based on your Intellect and +spell crit modifiers (Ony/Nef turn-in buffs, Loatheb +60% spell crit buff). Proc crits do 150% damage like spells.

Farla · 10/19/06, 4:43 PM

Thanks, pf. :)

I'm really glad hemo was added in. I've been playing around with a 29/0/22 spec and trying to do some number crunching on Patchwerk fights... At least now I can plug in my spec/gear sans seal fate... and see the potential dps losses from speccing combat maces/swords. Definitely appreciate this new release of crazy math. :)

Interesting note: My suspicions that BHB would be better than HoJ/ES etc for hemo with 4/9 bonus... are confirmed. :) (Well... at least for fights where you just stand in place.)

pf · 10/19/06, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ren

If TF is anything like a Servo Arm, then the proc can be resisted and crit. Resist rate are like spell resist rates (~17% against a level 63?) and proc crit % is based on your Intellect and +spell crit modifiers (Ony/Nef turn-in buffs, Loatheb +60% spell crit buff). Proc crits do 150% damage like spells.

I am not concerned with the actual proc (I believe that is modelled as accurately as possible assuming we have the correct proc %). What we are not sure of is how the +16-30 Nature Damage works.

• Andeh · 10/19/06, 4:49 PM

I was doing AQR/Iblis vs. Maex/Iblis, since I'm only planning 1 drop ahead (gear is in my sig, also used ACLG for daggers). I'm sure adding a AQ40/Naxx offhand dagger would help some more, I was just surprised how close it came. With the old sheets, I was getting a 20+ DPS bump just for getting the Maexxna's Fang.

Anecdotally, it seems to confirm my experiences, where myself and one other sword rogue with near identical gear almost always beat our dagger rogues. In otherwords, as long as I get WF, it gets me close enough so that my better connection and effort beat out theirs. The only exceptions are "in and out" fights like Noth, which they tend to win.

Sanosu · 10/19/06, 4:55 PM

Originally Posted by pf

What we are not sure of is how the +16-30 Nature Damage works.

Well there was a blue post concerning +elemental damage on weapons previous to the patch that changed all such weapon stats into procs that do roughly the same amount of dps, which leads me to believe they couldn't just fix the weapons with these effects. The reasoning was that the +elemental damage was doing physical damage instead the proper element, and I'm guessing they couldn't fix it, so they used the proc thing as a way to fix it, but Tfury already has a proc soo... I'd assume it is still doing physical damage, since it is still shown as +nature damage. (Also, wouldn't the nature damage value show up seperately in the combat log?)

• Apate · 10/20/06, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by Sanosu

Originally Posted by pf

What we are not sure of is how the +16-30 Nature Damage works.

Well there was a blue post concerning +elemental damage on weapons previous to the patch that changed all such weapon stats into procs that do roughly the same amount of dps, which leads me to believe they couldn't just fix the weapons with these effects. The reasoning was that the +elemental damage was doing physical damage instead the proper element, and I'm guessing they couldn't fix it, so they used the proc thing as a way to fix it, but Tfury already has a proc soo... I'd assume it is still doing physical damage, since it is still shown as +nature damage. (Also, wouldn't the nature damage value show up seperately in the combat log?)

I think that was only ranged weapons - http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/

Ranged Elemental Damage: Our ranged combat system does not allow a ranged weapon to do a mix of Elemental (Fire, Frost, Arcane, etc.) and Physical damage. Many ranged weapons existed which were listed as doing Elemental damage and did not function properly (the damage was dealt, but was treated as Physical). All of those weapons have been changed to deliver the Elemental damage as a chance on hit effect. Hurricane was previously changed this way in 1.11. The following ranged weapons are also fixed in 1.12: Bow of Searing Arrows, Dwarven Hand Cannon, Heartseeking Crossbow, Dark Iron Rifle, Galgann's Fireblaster, Quillshooter, Shell Launcher Shotgun, Venomstrike, and Verdant Keeper's Aim.

◊ Shaker · 10/20/06, 3:13 PM

Originally Posted by Ren

If TF is anything like a Servo Arm, then the proc can be resisted and crit. Resist rate are like spell resist rates (~17% against a level 63?) and proc crit % is based on your Intellect and +spell crit modifiers (Ony/Nef turn-in buffs, Loatheb +60% spell crit buff). Proc crits do 150% damage like spells.

This is correct, I've done testing with a tank in our guild - it doesn't crit for him unless he has the Onyxia head buff (which leads me to believe that warriors gain 0 spellcrit from int, since his int is non-zero, at which point it starts critting somewhat reliably. I should get him some spell damage gear to see if it ups the damage, but given the min-max nature of the spreadsheet, unless we see BC itemization where the best rogue piece for a slot happens to have some +dmg on it for druids, I don't think that's necessary at all. I'm almost 100% positive that it can also be resisted. If this becomes a big deal I'll run a few high hit tests with a good procwatch mod and get results for you guys, we have 2 TFs in our guild.

(Moonkin in the rogue group...?? You heard it here first!)

• probiscus · 10/20/06, 3:17 PM

Originally Posted by Andeh

Anecdotally, it seems to confirm my experiences, where myself and one other sword rogue with near identical gear almost always beat our dagger rogues. In otherwords, as long as I get WF, it gets me close enough so that my better connection and effort beat out theirs. The only exceptions are "in and out" fights like Noth, which they tend to win.

Interesting. That runs pretty contrary to what I experienced as a combat dagger rogue. On "in-and-out" fights the sword rogues typically fared a little better due to better CP generation, and being able to pop off a higher level evis/rupture/SnD at an earlier start point (before the "outs").

I guess a text book in and out would be chromaggus. Subjectively in my old guild I would top DPS on every BWL boss, but good sword rogues could come "closer" on chromag than any other fight.

pf · 10/20/06, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by Shaker

Originally Posted by Ren

If TF is anything like a Servo Arm, then the proc can be resisted and crit. Resist rate are like spell resist rates (~17% against a level 63?) and proc crit % is based on your Intellect and +spell crit modifiers (Ony/Nef turn-in buffs, Loatheb +60% spell crit buff). Proc crits do 150% damage like spells.

This is correct, I've done testing with a tank in our guild - it doesn't crit for him unless he has the Onyxia head buff (which leads me to believe that warriors gain 0 spellcrit from int, since his int is non-zero, at which point it starts critting somewhat reliably. I should get him some spell damage gear to see if it ups the damage, but given the min-max nature of the spreadsheet, unless we see BC itemization where the best rogue piece for a slot happens to have some +dmg on it for druids, I don't think that's necessary at all. I'm almost 100% positive that it can also be resisted. If this becomes a big deal I'll run a few high hit tests with a good procwatch mod and get results for you guys, we have 2 TFs in our guild.

(Moonkin in the rogue group...?? You heard it here first!)

Again, we know how the proc works. We do not know how the elemental damage on the weapon works.

Originally Posted by probiscus

Originally Posted by Andeh

Anecdotally, it seems to confirm my experiences, where myself and one other sword rogue with near identical gear almost always beat our dagger rogues. In otherwords, as long as I get WF, it gets me close enough so that my better connection and effort beat out theirs. The only exceptions are "in and out" fights like Noth, which they tend to win.

Interesting. That runs pretty contrary to what I experienced as a combat dagger rogue. On "in-and-out" fights the sword rogues typically fared a little better due to better CP generation, and being able to pop off a higher level evis/rupture/SnD at an earlier start point (before the "outs").

I guess a text book in and out would be chromaggus. Subjectively in my old guild I would top DPS on every BWL boss, but good sword rogues could come "closer" on chromag than any other fight.

Well, in the 2.01 and 2.0 versions of the sheet, Improved evis was pushing out too much damage causing some bad numbers. Anyone who compared the 2 specs before should compare them again now. Also, I dont consider chromaggus an in and out fight, I run my normal 5cp snd rotation there just fine with 2-3 seconds of downtime to get out of breath. Hopefully I get an hourglass sand to drop for me and dont have to worry about stuns.

Oh, version 2.0.2 went out last night, contained a few needed fixes described in first post.

Gort · 10/20/06, 4:22 PM

Something seems a bit funny with the Evisc. calculations... I actually LOSE buffed DPS by going from 2/3 Imp. Evisc to 3/3... That seems odd. Also, even though it's now telling me to use 5s/4r for the first time ever, my "finisher DPS" calculation changes (drops) when I alter Imp. Evisc from 2 to 1, even though there's no change to the final DPS number.

roq · 10/20/06, 4:29 PM

Originally Posted by pf

Oh, version 2.0.2 went out last night, contained a few needed fixes described in first post.

for us lazy people can you post the links to the Spreadsheet everytime you make an update so we can grab it in line instead of having to go back to page one for the files.

yes i made this same request to chalon back in the day ;)

phlare · 10/20/06, 4:30 PM

Where did the 3s/5s/5e cycle go? Thought this was always concidered more effective than 5s/4r which it currently shows as optimal.

Edit: Screwed up. Didn't have 3/3 imp evisc. The cycle is there.

pf · 10/20/06, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by Gort

Something seems a bit funny with the Evisc. calculations... I actually LOSE buffed DPS by going from 2/3 Imp. Evisc to 3/3... That seems odd. Also, even though it's now telling me to use 5s/4r for the first time ever, my "finisher DPS" calculation changes (drops) when I alter Imp. Evisc from 2 to 1, even though there's no change to the final DPS number.

Dropping from 3/3 imp evis to 2/3 is a known issue. When using the 3/3 imp evis, you are using the 5s/5e cycle. Because of this, you have a bit of snd downtime. After the cycle is chosen, then proc calculations are made. Well, the increased procs from 3/5/5 cycle actually make it a more optimal cycle even though its not chosen as such. When bumping down to 2/3 evis, the evis damage is lowered enough to make 3/5/5 more dps pre-procs and then you get extra procs to push it past the 3/3 evis amount. There really is not an easy way around this problem without requiring the cycle sheet to calculate everything for each cycle. To get a better grasp of what I am saying, look at the cycle sheet numbers and then the regular sheets proc dps numbers.

Fortunately, this problem should never happen when buffed as one cycle should be clearly better than another. Also, the reason it is now choosing rupture is that improved evis was giving 15% damage per point instead of 5% inflating the value of eviscerate quite a bit. Now that eviscerate is the proper value, rupture would be more optimal.

Gort · 10/20/06, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by phlare

Where did the 3s/5s/5e cycle go? Thought this was always concidered more effective than 5s/4r which it currently shows as optimal.

It's in there; I had it show up for me once, but I have no idea how I did it and can't get it back...

pf · 10/20/06, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by phlare

Where did the 3s/5s/5e cycle go? Thought this was always concidered more effective than 5s/4r which it currently shows as optimal.

Edit: Screwed up. Didn't have 3/3 imp evisc. The cycle is there.

Glad you found your mistake, and remember, if you do not want rupture to be an option so that 3-4 warlocks dont jump down your throat, there is a checkbox for that.

rochan · 10/20/06, 4:44 PM

Now all you have to do is convert everything to crit/hit rating and add in TBC items!

Gort · 10/20/06, 4:53 PM

Originally Posted by pf

Originally Posted by Gort

Something seems a bit funny with the Evisc. calculations... I actually LOSE buffed DPS by going from 2/3 Imp. Evisc to 3/3... That seems odd. Also, even though it's now telling me to use 5s/4r for the first time ever, my "finisher DPS" calculation changes (drops) when I alter Imp. Evisc from 2 to 1, even though there's no change to the final DPS number.

Dropping from 3/3 imp evis to 2/3 is a known issue. When using the 3/3 imp evis, you are using the 5s/5e cycle. Because of this, you have a bit of snd downtime. After the cycle is chosen, then proc calculations are made. Well, the increased procs from 3/5/5 cycle actually make it a more optimal cycle even though its not chosen as such. When bumping down to 2/3 evis, the evis damage is lowered enough to make 3/5/5 more dps pre-procs and then you get extra procs to push it past the 3/3 evis amount. There really is not an easy way around this problem without requiring the cycle sheet to calculate everything for each cycle. To get a better grasp of what I am saying, look at the cycle sheet numbers and then the regular sheets proc dps numbers.

Fortunately, this problem should never happen when buffed as one cycle should be clearly better than another. Also, the reason it is now choosing rupture is that improved evis was giving 15% damage per point instead of 5% inflating the value of eviscerate quite a bit. Now that eviscerate is the proper value, rupture would be more optimal.

I'll stare at the sheets some more.

With 3/3 suggesting a 5s/5e cycle, and any lower talent allocation suggesting 5s/4r, given the final DPS drop from shifting to 3/3 as well as a 5s/5e cycle, wouldn't rupture still be optimal for DPS in that case? I guess that's what's messing with my head.

ETA: Urgh. Okay, cycle sheet shows higher DPS for 5s/5e which makes sense. Just not the "Buffed DPS" cell.

I feel sorry for all those Deep Wounds that're about to go away. (Nah, I'm lying, no I don't.)

pf · 10/20/06, 5:06 PM

Originally Posted by Gort

Originally Posted by pf

Originally Posted by Gort

Something seems a bit funny with the Evisc. calculations... I actually LOSE buffed DPS by going from 2/3 Imp. Evisc to 3/3... That seems odd. Also, even though it's now telling me to use 5s/4r for the first time ever, my "finisher DPS" calculation changes (drops) when I alter Imp. Evisc from 2 to 1, even though there's no change to the final DPS number.

Dropping from 3/3 imp evis to 2/3 is a known issue. When using the 3/3 imp evis, you are using the 5s/5e cycle. Because of this, you have a bit of snd downtime. After the cycle is chosen, then proc calculations are made. Well, the increased procs from 3/5/5 cycle actually make it a more optimal cycle even though its not chosen as such. When bumping down to 2/3 evis, the evis damage is lowered enough to make 3/5/5 more dps pre-procs and then you get extra procs to push it past the 3/3 evis amount. There really is not an easy way around this problem without requiring the cycle sheet to calculate everything for each cycle. To get a better grasp of what I am saying, look at the cycle sheet numbers and then the regular sheets proc dps numbers.

Fortunately, this problem should never happen when buffed as one cycle should be clearly better than another. Also, the reason it is now choosing rupture is that improved evis was giving 15% damage per point instead of 5% inflating the value of eviscerate quite a bit. Now that eviscerate is the proper value, rupture would be more optimal.

I'll stare at the sheets some more.

With 3/3 suggesting a 5s/5e cycle, and any lower talent allocation suggesting 5s/4r, given the final DPS drop from shifting to 3/3 as well as a 5s/5e cycle, wouldn't rupture still be optimal for DPS in that case? I guess that's what's messing with my head.

I feel sorry for all those Deep Wounds that're about to go away. (Nah, I'm lying, no I don't.)

Im not quite sure of your question, but if you are saying 2/3 evis gives a 5s/4r cycle that does more dps than the 3/3 evis cycle with 5s/5e, then sure, 5s/4r is more optimal.

Originally Posted by rochan

Now all you have to do is convert everything to crit/hit rating and add in TBC items!

Adding in items has to be my favorite thing to do! Anyone want to volunteer for this? lol

• probiscus · 10/20/06, 5:07 PM

Wonder if it would be possible to talk to the guys at thott and have it sync up to their database manually >_>

/not volunteering