Well you're not losing the whole 20%. Remember that Mutilate is weapondmg+101.
Hence DW redeems some of the lost dmg by the increase to oh weapondmg.
However I'm not realy the math wizard so I redirect you to: http://roguecrap.blogspot.com/2006/1...d-spec-vs.html <- Comparison of DW/OP.
I'd say my white dmg makes up a decent part of my dmg in the arenas since most of the time you're stunlocking/in melee range of the enemy anyway.
Then again if you're not PvE'ing a lot, 41/13/7 is just fine. Although I'd say that for 3v3 and 5v5 arena imp sap is hardly useful. Against any good team you won't be able to get it in.
[Edit] Actualy Vitaminc posted some very interesting points on mutilate offhands. More on that here
Last edited by Grunge : 03/07/07 at 3:37 AM.
Reason: Cleaned
that was an interesting read grunge thx for the link. apparently the argument is that the 101 damage added to weapon damage from mutilate is multiplied by the OH penalty as well?
so:
OH spec: 101 * .75 = 75.75
w/o spec: 101 * .5 = 50.5
so by speccing full OH spec you save an extra 25 damage per mutilate on each OH mutilate swing, did i interpret this correctly?
and this high bonus to offhand damage really starts to bridge the gap between opportunity and OH spec. when OH spec is combined with all the other great combat talents the choice becomes a no brainer. that's assuming that OH mutilate damage is nerfed hard without OH spec. if the damage is nerfed, then OH spec is far more useful than I thought it was originally for a mutilate build. gonna need a confirmation on this though.
that was an interesting read grunge thx for the link. apparently the argument is that the 101 damage added to weapon damage from mutilate is multiplied by the OH penalty as well?
so:
OH spec: 101 * .75 = 75.75
w/o spec: 101 * .5 = 50.5
so by speccing full OH spec you save an extra 25 damage per mutilate on each OH mutilate swing, did i interpret this correctly?
and this high bonus to offhand damage really starts to bridge the gap between opportunity and OH spec. when OH spec is combined with all the other great combat talents the choice becomes a no brainer. that's assuming that OH mutilate damage is nerfed hard without OH spec. if the damage is nerfed, then OH spec is far more useful than I thought it was originally for a mutilate build. gonna need a confirmation on this though.
With naked character and two grey daggers, OH mutilate with DW actually crits harder than MH mutilate, the reason is the offhand mutilate gets 151 bonus damage, instead of 100 bonus damage like MH. When you crit for 2000 on an opportunity mutilate, just use MH / 1.2 + OH / 1.2 * 1.5, and you get your DW mutilate numbers.
Using PFs calc you will see the diff in damage in using fast offhand with mutilate. And he lists the actual Mutilate DPS as well....
The only reason I bring this is up is that as a combat sword rogue in the spreadsheet, if I change either my gloves or my helm to T4, my DPS increases, but if I change both (and activate the 2 piece bonus), I can see the total DPS noticeably drop. I'm just not sure whether it's an issue with the calculations being made, or the cycles being used.
It could be that with both pieces on, you pass a hit cap or similar diminishing return? This way changing one piece at a time the "hit" increase would still be useful to you. This is just a guess, I don't mean it exclusively about +hit, but anything similar may do.
And by the way, yes I think it's possible to break the cap at this time.
In the next version of the sheet whenever you plan to release it can we please can a checkbox to enable Stormstrike. It seems to me when I have my local enhancement shaman around envenom becomes a much more appealing finisher and I would like to be able to play with the numbers. No need to model Stormstrike uptime or any real calcuations just a 1.20 modifier to nature damage would make me happy. Thanks for the great sheet PF.
Un, I managed to get WWS working, after an hour+ of poking Razelikh's servant in the face I came up with 302 procs over 2113 hits, roughly adding up to ~14% (white dmg alone)
I'll mail you the combatlog later today when I get the address.
Gah, my email is freezing up on me so I can't get to this yet, but thanks again for taking an hour out of your day to poke at things. You must have had both daggers in your profile equipped, eh? The Night Blade and Malchazeen? Just want to verify that both daggers used are 1.80 speed. A 14% proc rate seems like it would be overpowered on such a nice stacking buff (that does stack with sunder armor), but it's right in line with all the anecdotal reports I've read on TNB.
When I get my email situation settled I'll try and get some info posted so anyone interested can look at it. Pf I know you're busy and I'm sure you'd like to get your final revision of the spreadsheet out with as few headaches as possible, but it would be stellar if we could get a more accurate modeling of TNB's proc in the spreadsheet. This might be an incredible dagger for PvE dps.
What I’m showing from the WWS report is 2074 total white dmg strikes (1551 hits + 523 crits), and 302 procs of “The Dark of Night.” Assuming Grunge was geared during the test how his profile indicates, he had two 1.80 speed daggers, and TNB in the OH. Thus all specials (gouge, KS, EA) should be ignored. (2074/302)2=13.74. It would be great for someone to double/triple check all of this, but I’m also showing a ~14% proc rate on this buff. And it is indeed a buff on the player wielding TNB that stacks with sunder armor (and applies to which ever target the player switches to).
It’s a remarkable buff and a remarkable proc rate (if it is really 14%).
And all this stuff becoming public is not a good thing as past history of Blizzard has shown time and time again.
I appreciate the sentiment rj, but that leads to a tricky question. Do we stay hush hush and just not talk about it in hopes that it will not get nerfed? If Billmaan had never gone public with the way +weaponskill decreased the severity of glancing blows, would we still have a +weaponskill that decreases the severity of glancing blows? It’s a “what if” question. It’s possible no one else would have figured it out (but then no one would have really been utilizing the mechanic either except by accident) - it’s also possible that Blizz would have nerfed the mechanic anyways before anyone found out about it.
If we don’t talk about TNB how can we be sure noone else will? How can we be sure Blizz isn’t already aware of how good/bad it is and that they might change it (or not) purely on their own accord? Where do we draw the line of what’s ok to talk about and what isn’t?
I think it’s pretty obvious I would really like to see TNB modeled more accurately in the spreadsheet, and let the winds blow however they will blow insofar as what Blizz decides to do or not do with this information (assuming they don’t already have it). But if a lot of folks around here do think this should be left alone and kept under the rug I will delete my posts regarding TNB.
For anyone interested in AEP values to be entered into Pawn or my site (*cough*), I have modified the sheet to output the AEP values for your current gear.
I assume they are correct, as I assume that the greyed out values in the Unbuffed and Buffed DPS are correct as well, and I deduce the AEP values from these values.
I appreciate the sentiment rj, but that leads to a tricky question. Do we stay hush hush and just not talk about it in hopes that it will not get nerfed? If Billmaan had never gone public with the way +weaponskill decreased the severity of glancing blows, would we still have a +weaponskill that decreases the severity of glancing blows? It’s a “what if” question. It’s possible no one else would have figured it out (but then no one would have really been utilizing the mechanic either except by accident) - it’s also possible that Blizz would have nerfed the mechanic anyways before anyone found out about it.
The +skill/glancing blows issue was public long before Billmaan "went public." Anyone parsing combat logs knew about it, the effect was in DPS calculators as early as mid-2005 and wowwiki even disclosed the effect as early as June 2006 if I recall correctly. Blizzard changed the mechanic because it was exalting +skill gear over higher tier raid instance gear. For example, pre-TBC, the best combat dagger gloves hands down was the Aged Core Leather Gloves because the +skill has such a significant impact on glancing blows and white damage against 61+ mobs.
I am not disputing we should be discrete in what is discussed in a public forum but just wanted to set the record straight on the +skill/glancing blows issue.
I tested TNB over 1081 hits with MH only and it came out to around 20% on Procwatch (211/1081.) I'll test it a bit more later when I'm bored out of my mind.
No, however I'm watching my Combat log and there are no OH swings, just the 1 white swing every 2 seconds. After reading that I also counted my MH swings and compared it to Procwatch's last Fight and it matches up correctly. Just did another 594 hits and it procced 124 times (21%.) I also noticed Procwatch doesn't count refreshes after the third stack so it would actually be a tad higher.
Just FYI, I used SS and SnD for the first sample (1080) but right now I'm white swing poking yetis in Winterspring without using skills. There is a clearly a wide range of results on this thing so far, so it'd make sense for someone to just duel a paladin and go afk swinging.
Hmm, how does WWS handle refreshing? Under Miscellaneous gained it shows 302. However I'm not 100% sure that refreshing procs are counted under that? I'd assume so, but if not then that could explain the disparity in %?
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
At max stack refreshing won't show up in the combat log.
Can't say I know of any addons that would work around this, unless you take custom made ones (similar to Rampage related addons) rather than the usual combat log monitors.
I thought as much. To confirm it with WWS I took a quick trip to the elemental plato, turned on combatlog and shived a mob to death. WWS showed 3 "gains" of the dark of night. Based on this I went through the combat log and noticed something VERY odd:
3/9 08:09:05.033 You gain The Dark of Night.
then after a few lines
3/9 08:09:07.736 You gain The Dark of Night (3).
and then later
3/9 08:09:24.346 The Dark of Night fades from you.
Meaning WWS would not be able to count for these "missing" procs.
EDIT: Combatlog DUH. Sorry for my ignorance, combat log doesn't count for any procs that refresh a existing stack of the dark of night...
Last edited by Grunge : 03/09/07 at 2:27 AM.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
Has anyone had the chance to beat on a Blasted Lands mob with the Dragonspine Trophy? I assume it functions similar to the Hourglass of the Unraveller; something around a 30 second CD on the proc.
I'd be curious to know how often it procs when wailing on a Servant of Allistarj for an hour.
ninja'd out of the wowhead comment for dragonspine trophy:
Wow, that makes it the new number one trinket by a good 5-6 DPS (over Bloodlust Broach) for a rogue. Based on that data, it looks like it procs once every 45 seconds in a static fight; this sounds about right as that's the average proc time for the Hourglass and it wouldn't surprise me if they used the same mechanic.
I was the person who made the WoWHead post. I've seen the Dragonspine buff refresh itself before, so if you're referring to the "cooldown" on the Hourglass proc, I don't believe it does.
And yeah, it's an absolutely ridiculous trinket with SnD and specials factored in.
Last edited by Svidrigailov : 03/09/07 at 10:56 AM.
03/07/07, 4:57 AM
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