Rogue DPS Spreadsheet - Page 29

Xard · 12/18/06, 7:49 PM

Just as a small note, Death's Sting after the patch is now +2 skill (7 rating) rather than 3 skill, as its modeled in the sheet.

Morde · 12/18/06, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by koaschten

go do the math again

how much dmg reduction does your mate have in the char screen?

He stated my damage reduction (he was using my alt shaman for a guinea pig). From the numbers the spreadsheet says he should have gotten I'd not be able to outheal the dps (Max I can do in full healbot gear is 1k hps as a full restoration build and I had 3.4kish health), however I healed the damage he outputting on me everytime with relative ease.

pf · 12/18/06, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Doppi

stuff

Those numbers are there purely for your own reference and do not factor into the actual dps of the sheet itself. They should be correct, but its possible they are not. Anyway, the sheet is made for pve purposes, and not pvp, its entirely possible blizzard has 2 different armor values for pvp and pve just as a player cannot dodge attacks from behind, but a mob can.

Doppi · 12/19/06, 3:26 AM

Originally Posted by Wodahs

1300+900=2200

Yes I mistyped, as I said it was getting late, I did of course mean 1500+900, or I remember wrong now and the total was 2200 as you said.

Pf: Those numbers (the theoretical mutilate dmg ones) match up to what the sheet says my mutilate dps should be, so they obviously at least match the sheet's dps calculation and they are far to high compared to what mutilate actually does, especially on crits. The more I look at it the more certain I am that you calc both swings as crits on any given crit with mutilate.

Kalman · 12/19/06, 3:34 AM

If he calcs both swings as crits on a crit and both swings as hits on a hit, it works out properly anyway.

Doppi · 12/19/06, 3:38 AM

Not really, both hits ARE hits on a non-crit, but a crit can be from lowest dmg to highest:
1) MH hit + OH crit
2) MH crit + OH hit
3) MH crit + OH crit
Only 3) comes even close to matching what it seems to me at least the sheet calculates every mutilate crit as.

Kalman · 12/19/06, 4:20 AM

You don't understand how the sheet works. It calculates an expected value per Mutilate and assumes all Mutilates hit for that value.

Zoro · 12/19/06, 6:19 AM

But teh big numbers!

Sorry.
Just I never cease to get irked by people's inability to grasp the difference between single isolated events and overtime/population averages...
I should have been a statistician.

Silan · 12/19/06, 6:51 AM

There is a addon that will calculate your total Mutilate for you. I personally would like to see this added into SCT. On a side note, what im understanding is that for Mutilate to shine you need to put a high damage dagger in your OH as opposed to a quick high dps dagger. I could be wrong.

pf · 12/19/06, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Doppi

Not really, both hits ARE hits on a non-crit, but a crit can be from lowest dmg to highest:
1) MH hit + OH crit
2) MH crit + OH hit
3) MH crit + OH crit
Only 3) comes even close to matching what it seems to me at least the sheet calculates every mutilate crit as.

I'll say it for the last time. Those min hit/crit,avg hit/crit, max hit/crit have absolutely nothing to do with the dps calculations for the sheet. They are there as useful information that someone might want to look at. It also follows that a hit is both hits and a crit is both crits.

Furthermore, any discrepancies in numbers can probably be accounted for because the sheet is assuming you have find weakness up any time you mutilate (which you should in a raid situation except for the first 1/2), but as I said, those numbers are not included in any sort of calculation, only there for "pretty" value.

Trazhenko · 12/19/06, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Silan

On a side note, what im understanding is that for Mutilate to shine you need to put a high damage dagger in your OH as opposed to a quick high dps dagger. I could be wrong.

It's only worth it if you don't lose much/anything in stats and weapon DPS (or if the difference in average damage is obscene). I thought about getting the HWL Razor to OH for Mutilate (vs. my Harbinger), but despite being a much better weapon for instant attacks, it only worked out to about 3 DPS more Mutilate damage (just mutilate, not total) at the cost of the far superior DPS, stats, and speed (for poison) of the Harbinger.

The problem is that you are giving up poison damage and stats that benefit both hands to increase a portion of your damage that gets halved by the offhand penalty. Maybe at 70 with D/W spec it will be more viable.

Silentness · 12/19/06, 1:29 PM

Yeah the GM/HWL dagger's 59.5 dps kills it's great potential as a OH even for mutilate when compared to Naxx daggers.

Zandig · 12/19/06, 2:03 PM

I noticed an interesting quirk with the spreadsheet in this version, and it appears that, on the offhand (with windfury on the mainhand), instant poison does substantially more damage than deadly poison, while this is untrue on the mainhand. I should also note that this is assuming a mutilate build. Does this have to do with the presumed bugged nature on how poisons are applied with mutilate, or is there something I"m missing?

pf · 12/19/06, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by Zandig

I noticed an interesting quirk with the spreadsheet in this version, and it appears that, on the offhand (with windfury on the mainhand), instant poison does substantially more damage than deadly poison, while this is untrue on the mainhand. I should also note that this is assuming a mutilate build. Does this have to do with the presumed bugged nature on how poisons are applied with mutilate, or is there something I"m missing?

Instant poison is modeled as it is supposed to work, but it seems to be giving too many procs in game currently. The problem lies with deadly poison formula. The deadly poison formula is wrong and was not adjusted in anyway for mutilate. Pretend on a sustained fight, that if you are the only one using deadly poison that it will out-perform instant. The deadly poison formula needs to be re-written similar to the crusader formula, but even more complex since it stacks, so you have to take into account dp5 downtime, dp5 build up time etc. If anyone wants to volunteer to do that, by all means, please do, but as it stands, getting a correct deadly poison formula is close to the last thing on my list.

Jarush · 12/19/06, 3:48 PM

I have wondered couple things.

First, is combat potency really as good compared to lethality as spreadsheet shows? I played with spreadsheet a little and found out that my buffed dps is about 40 higher if I have 0/5 lethality and 5/5 combat potency than if I have 5/5 lethality and 0/5 combat potency.
I'm currently having 16/33/0 combat swords build with 5/5 lethality and 0/5 combat potency and I'm wondering if it's better (for raid dps) to change lethality to combat potency?

Second, is it better to have deadly poison in offhand or in mainhand (I don't have any poison talents)? I mean if it's in MH does it proc "too often" because it only stacks up to 5 times? Or does it proc so rarely that it's best to have it in both weapons instead of instant poison/deadly poison? (I've always used instant/instant because of debuff slot limit and that's why I'm now a little confused with deadly poison.)