1) If you didn't set points into improved Eviscerate, Rupture should be better. The question is, do you have enough combo points and NOT have skilled Eviscerate.

2) Envenom isn't mitigated by armor. Unless you have an enemy with basically 0% armor reduction, Eviscerate does less damage.
Don't know about the poison stacks though, as I'm not in the beta.

Hm, I just searched for "fist crit offhand" and received results.
Didn't want to go through the 2 pages though, but as far as I know, the crit bonus is only applied to that hand if you are weilding a dagger/fist (and not a sword for example).

On a related note and a derail, do elemental sharpening stones only apply the 2% crit to the corresponding hand aswell? Meaning that applying it to your offhand as a rogue basically would be just a waste.

Cheers and also an interesting point.

I do find it odd then that it changes your character sheet to display an updated crit % if you only weild it in the mainhand. I guess the displayed %crit chance is in fact your mainhand %crit chance then.

And if fist weapon spec works this way, I would assume that the elemental sharpening stones only affect the weapon they are on.


Hmm, now I need to work out if R14 MH claw + pugio is better as comnbat fists than R14 MH claw + R14 OH claw.

Or sigh, maybe I will just go for seal fate daggers, the burst is amazing, no need to poison the target, so its quite a flexible fast grind spec that couples to make PvP easier, PLUS with backstab you get the 30% crit bonus that will not get affected by levelling 60-70 (whereas my fist weapon combat build will slowly go from 34% crit to around 25% crit =/. )

Decisions decisions decisions!

We had basically the same thing happen last night, where Mutilate keeps pace or out performs Combat Swords and Combat Daggers (15/31/5... don't have anyone that has gone 5/41/5 yet). I was #2 for Patchwerk last night by 5-10 DPS behind our best geared Fury Warrior.

However, I am starting to think the spreadsheet isn't quite right anymore. Prior to 2.0 I was getting within a couple DPS of the predicted value on Patchwerk, normally a little lower (maybe 5 DPS) due to waiting to engage.

Currently according to the spreadsheet I should be able to do: 825 DPS buffed and potted (no world buffs), last night on Patchwerk I was at around ~705 DPS, now I probably messed up a cycle or 2 and with better timing of Cold Blood and Tea I might be able to up that by as much as 50 DPS, but I don't see it going up by 120.

Is the Armor Mitigation set to low, or am I missing something? Is anyone else noticing the same thing, that atleast for Mutilate the predicted value and actual values are off by quite a bit?

Edit - How much of a difference does CoR make, since I don't think we have been using that due to low healer turnout.

CoR is a *huge* difference. I always notice(d) on my recap status. When my DPS dropped, it was always due to missing CoR.
Also armor mitigation formulas have been changed, at least the trash mobs before patchwerk are now hitting me with ~4000 cleave damage instead of the usual ~3700-3800. Though I don't know if this affects mobs aswell or only damage to you.


//edit
@castille
Probably ran out of poisons, only 39 procs.
And likely he was using Deadly too, but didn't get any ticks. Or was using sharpening stone or whatever.

Now imagine if blizzard actually allowed mutilate to work with the 4/6/8 piece bonescythe. =) Mutilate has been more powerful than I had imagined coming into this 2.0 patch. I'm actually amazed that blizzard pulled off a fun pvp build and yet a highly viable pve build at the same time.

CoR makes a pretty big difference. Also, if the druid on FF does not have a timer bar, he will not know when it falls off because you cannot see all 40 debuff slots anymore. Losing both of those would drop your dps from 825 to below 700.

As someone else mentioned, the poison numbers from the Combat Daggers guy are absurdly low. Dual instant and not running out of charges probably would have put the combat guy on top, but the margin is still so small that it makes combat seem hardly worth it.

I guess the only real caveat here is that you have to pay more attention and seriously play well to max out your PvE DPS with mutilate. Anyone can put up good numbers and do so consistently with combat. Mash backstab, SnD when necessary, repeat. It's almost difficult to do poorly on Patchwerk with combat.

Take note of the 2 backstabs with 100% crit rate, which I imagine were performed on 8pc Bonescythe procs (a bonus that does *nothing* for combat daggers btw). Sokkou is paying attention to detail and probably working his ass off to get that damage. No insult to Joji, of course. I'm sure he brings his A game to every raid too, but there's not a lot of room for individual effort to shine in a combat build on such a static fight.

Anyway, I'm sure that a lot of the people in this thread would put in similar effort, but not everyone will see these results. Spec matters, but I think a lot of the gap you see in DMs is from people putting in the effort to get the most out of whatever spec they chose. It just so happens that for the longest time, combat not only had the best theoretical DPS, it was also the easiest to play to the fullest.

I parsed about 1000 white attacks with a sword in my main hand a dagger in my offhand (with dagger spec) and found that:

1) my tooltip did not reflect the dagger spec bonus
2) my observed crit rate closely matched the tooltip rate

I did not have the opportunity to do the same with a dagger main and sword offhand, but I have a feeling that dagger spec for both hands is based only on the main hand, which, while counterintuitive and silly, is what the Thottbot-junkies have been telling us for quite a long time.

Before you basically had 2 specs, Combat Daggers or Combat Swords/Maces/Claws, and the occational person who thought Hemo would be a good idea. Since the patch we have had a couple people decide to try to raid Sub Spec for Cloak of Shadows... sure it is fun and saves you 8-10g on Loatheb, but the DPS blows. I will say that I have to pay alot more attention Mutilate Spec then I ever had to Combat Daggers, however that also makes it alot more fun, and you can break out some huge burst DPS at times.

Basically as a dagger rogue you can go Mutilate or Combat and get about the same results, the only differences is that you have to work harder for that DPS in PvE, but you get to have alot more fun in PvP.

@graecus there are like a zillion posts on the beta forums.... yet i have to see a blue post in the rogue forums...