I use the speadsheet for some months, but while I updated it today, I was wondering about two things.
The first thing is the unbuffed DPS sheet tells me, that hit rating seems to give me a lot more DPS than crit rating (the ratio is 1:1.23). I am aware, that +hit benefits combat potency a lot and I'm using Thunderfury as my off-hand, which also profits from hit rating. But even when I switch to Latro's and turn CP off, 1 hit rating is worth 1.17 crit rating. My spec is 11/43/7, so I don't have lethality, but even with it, hit rating is worth more than crit.
Secondly the buffed "the next one" tables shows very high DPS gains from crit and hit. I expected it to be higher, but unbuffed 1 crit rating was worth 1.03 AP. Buffed it rises to 31 AP (and hit rating is still worth a little more than crit rating).
I use the speadsheet for some months, but while I updated it today, I was wondering about two things.
The first thing is the unbuffed DPS sheet tells me, that hit rating seems to give me a lot more DPS than crit rating (the ratio is 1:1.23). I am aware, that +hit benefits combat potency a lot and I'm using Thunderfury as my off-hand, which also profits from hit rating. But even when I switch to Latro's and turn CP off, 1 hit rating is worth 1.17 crit rating. My spec is 11/43/7, so I don't have lethality, but even with it, hit rating is worth more than crit.
Secondly the buffed "the next one" tables shows very high DPS gains from crit and hit. I expected it to be higher, but unbuffed 1 crit rating was worth 1.03 AP. Buffed it rises to 31 AP (and hit rating is still worth a little more than crit rating).
You don't have a question up there, so I don't know that you are looking for an answer... But, it all depends on your current hit and crit, for some people crit is shown as being worth more, because my ratio of crit to hit is different from yours.
I use the speadsheet for some months, but while I updated it today, I was wondering about two things.
The first thing is the unbuffed DPS sheet tells me, that hit rating seems to give me a lot more DPS than crit rating (the ratio is 1:1.23). I am aware, that +hit benefits combat potency a lot and I'm using Thunderfury as my off-hand, which also profits from hit rating. But even when I switch to Latro's and turn CP off, 1 hit rating is worth 1.17 crit rating. My spec is 11/43/7, so I don't have lethality, but even with it, hit rating is worth more than crit.
Secondly the buffed "the next one" tables shows very high DPS gains from crit and hit. I expected it to be higher, but unbuffed 1 crit rating was worth 1.03 AP. Buffed it rises to 31 AP (and hit rating is still worth a little more than crit rating).
You need only 15.77 hit rating for 1% hit, but 22.08 crit rating for 1% crit. This is why 1 hit rating shows more dps gain than 1 crit rating.
As for "the next one", I cannot follow your numbers. Even if I enable every single buff in the sheet (giving me >2000 dps btw), 1 crit rating is worth only 1.83 AP. Unbuffed it's 1.25 AP.
Are you sure you didn't mess something up? 31 AP seems very broken.
Your sheet could be broken, try to download it again. If that doesn't help, maybe there's a bug in the formula. Uploading your current sheet may be helpful in that case.
You need only 15.77 hit rating for 1% hit, but 22.08 crit rating for 1% crit. This is why 1 hit rating shows more dps gain than 1 crit rating.
Uh, I totally overlooked that, thank you.
Originally Posted by sp00n
As for "the next one", I cannot follow your numbers. Even if I enable every single buff in the sheet (giving me >2000 dps btw), 1 crit rating is worth only 1.83 AP. Unbuffed it's 1.25 AP.
That's what I wanted to point out. I didn't change anything but my gear and spec on the sheet. So when I'm home from work I will download it again and check if something was broken with my file.
Out of curiosity, has anyone considered a 11/21/29 spec? It seems interesting on paper and plugging it into the sheet does give a pretty good result with hemo estimate on, even more so with mangle (only changed MH to Spiteblade and talents/mangle, left the rest as it came with the sheet).
Im running 11/21/29 atm and I have to say I love it. Its definitly a great spec for heroics and even though I realise that I would be able to do a little better damagewise in raids with a combat spec I have been doing very respectable damage so far in our KZ runs. Enough for threat to be the biggest concern in most fights. Im running with Blacksmith mace and searing dagger as weapons atm. If you have a good enough mainhand I would definitly recommend people to try it out atleast.
... it into the sheet does give a pretty good result with hemo estimate on, ...
Enabling that checkbox is kind of misleading becuase it assumes you use up all of the Hemo charges which is ok for soloing but unlikely in a raid. When comparing the dps of a particular Hemo build to something else, it's often useful to leave that check box unchecked.
Enabling that checkbox is kind of misleading becuase it assumes you use up all of the Hemo charges which is ok for soloing but unlikely in a raid. When comparing the dps of a particular Hemo build to something else, it's often useful to leave that check box unchecked.
Your point is only valid if you only care about your DPS and not the raid's total DPS. As long as all the charges are getting used, enabling the box is a more accurate picture of your value to the group.
Out of curiosity, has anyone considered a 11/21/29 spec? It seems interesting on paper and plugging it into the sheet does give a pretty good result with hemo estimate on, even more so with mangle (only changed MH to Spiteblade and talents/mangle, left the rest as it came with the sheet).
I was using a Hemo variant for solo leveling and it was pretty fun with ghostly strike, setup and lightning reflexes working well together. The utility added by the Sub tree doesn't seem very useful in raids or even 5mans though, and I went back to plain old combat swords at 70.
I always thought the spreadsheet was designed to only care about your dps.
It's designed to only care about DPS that you're responsible for.
Even though hemo debuff DPS isn't attributed to you, you're responsible for it. The hemo estimate is in there so that the *1st* hemo rogue in a raid can get a guess as to how much help he's providing the raid indirectly. Given the controversial nature of raiding with hemo at the time I added the estimate, it was also useful to show why *1* hemo rogue might be useful in a raid.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
You can edit it locally; if someone tracks down Bleedo, he could probably get updated versions onto his site.
Bleedo roams the lands, looking for food and wild game. He is also willing to upload any legitimately updated version of the sheet to the site, or possibly even give someone the disk space and access to do it themselves if approached by the approachers.
Bleedo roams the lands, looking for food and wild game. He is also willing to upload any legitimately updated version of the sheet to the site, or possibly even give someone the disk space and access to do it themselves if approached by the approachers.
Does he remember to use Slice and Dice on the wild game? :p
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Enabling that checkbox is kind of misleading becuase it assumes you use up all of the Hemo charges which is ok for soloing but unlikely in a raid. When comparing the dps of a particular Hemo build to something else, it's often useful to leave that check box unchecked.
*snip edit*
Nevermind, Kalman explained it better than I did.
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
Does anyone know if it is safe to assume all boss mobs in TBC have 50% glancing chance, rather than the 40% we expected to have? I'm reasonably certain from my guild's Wow Web Stats of Gruul and Doom Lord Kazzak that they have 50% glance, but have not yet been able to parse data on any other 25 man bosses.
If so make sure to change the Glancing % value on the unbuffed and buffed dps sheets. It makes about 10dps difference to me, equivilent to a significant gear change.
WWS did calculate the % of glancing blows from all attacks that actually landed on the target instead of all attacks performed, including misses, dodges and parries, thus resulting in a higher percentage.
I don't know though if that has changed meanwhile.
11/21/29 was discussed pretty heavily in another thread called How I Learned To Love Imp Sap or something like that, basically a discussion of all specs you can hit to get 7+ points into Sub. You can find some good information there. Briefly I'll mention (since this is the wrong thread to do it in) that a big portion of the Kz trash (Moroes adds etc etc) are vulnerable to Blind, so a 1.5-minute makes my Priests much safer on Shackle breaks. I use MoD/Camou to peek around corners and assign targets. Sleight of Hand is nice when I don't have a Paladin and for the Resilience for my arena team, Initiative is always awesome for PvE and PvP, Serrated Blades is a straight DPS talent, Ghostly is good burst and (I think?) better DPE/DPS than Hemo. Heightened Senses is great for PvP and good for situational PvE (taking cleaves, Assassins, etc). Prep is awesome, 3m30 Evasion and Sprint with Prep in the same build means those cooldowns are *always* up. 1/2 Dirty Deeds is a nod towards my PvP and helps my 5-man energy efficiency. 4/5 Deadliness is straight DPS.
I fail to see what portion of the Sub tree outlined above you could say "isn't really useful in a 5man or raid." To give you an idea of the flexibility of the build, I kited Moroes' Prot Warrior yesterday while the rest of the DPS burned down the first add. Lots of specs could do it, none of those specs have the same tools at my disposal for kiting/OTing/surviving AND strong DPS AND good scalability to boot. I heartily suggest it.
I fail to see what portion of the Sub tree outlined above you could say "isn't really useful in a 5man or raid." To give you an idea of the flexibility of the build, I kited Moroes' Prot Warrior yesterday while the rest of the DPS burned down the first add. Lots of specs could do it, none of those specs have the same tools at my disposal for kiting/OTing/surviving AND strong DPS AND good scalability to boot. I heartily suggest it.
Wouldn't you be contributing more on that fight by doing lots of DPS on the first Moroes add that's targeted for death than kiting around a target that could be shackled or offtanked? Cripple kiting is nice and all but you don't need to be deep in the Sub tree to pull that off. There's always a tradeoff to be made between utility/niceties and DPS but from my limited time in Gruul's Lair it looks like most of that utility won't be applicable post-Karazhan. 5 mans are a different story, but I was focusing on mostly the dodge-based aspect of Sub and thinking that I usually don't like being the target of an enemy mob.
Wouldn't you be contributing more on that fight by doing lots of DPS on the first Moroes add that's targeted for death than kiting around a target that could be shackled or offtanked? Cripple kiting is nice and all but you don't need to be deep in the Sub tree to pull that off. There's always a tradeoff to be made between utility/niceties and DPS but from my limited time in Gruul's Lair it looks like most of that utility won't be applicable post-Karazhan. 5 mans are a different story, but I was focusing on mostly the dodge-based aspect of Sub and thinking that I usually don't like being the target of an enemy mob.
I switched away from 11/21/29 when I picked up a Latros. To put it inot context - that was the run before I pinged Exalted with CoT. Stupid luck.
Anyway, it meant I had a fair shake of the whip at 70 running Kara/Heroics with it. It was very good in Heroics I found, the lack of class diversity meant there were more 'ah crap' moments caused by capability gaps and the subtlety tree gives good tools to manage them. I did the OT at Moreos thing. I tanked the first mob to be killed whilst the MT handled the second. Hemo produced enough dps that I kept the aggro - and meant that overall I felt competitive in dps (only an Elemental Shaman in my regular Kara group was beating me - now we're equal).
But...
Switching to Combat swords wasn't just 'a slight' dps gain - it was a considerable one. Very noticeable. I wouldn't have done it without Latros - show's how nuts that sword is. Yes, I've lost overall utility - but I don't feel I've lost capability so much as duration/frequency. I've still OTed at Moreos. I couldn't help but feel the 5->10->25 progression naturally diminshes the importance of the Subtlety tree utility whilst combat damage remains just as valid.
The final nail in the coffin for me was the realisation that I was never, ever in TBC going to get a decent Hemo speed weapon to counterbalance the stupidly good efficiency gains of fast of hands. Until I see a 2.8/2.9 - Combat swords it is.
Switching to Combat swords wasn't just 'a slight' dps gain - it was a considerable one. Very noticeable. I wouldn't have done it without Latros - show's how nuts that sword is. Yes, I've lost overall utility - but I don't feel I've lost capability so much as duration/frequency. I've still OTed at Moreos. I couldn't help but feel the 5->10->25 progression naturally diminshes the importance of the Subtlety tree utility whilst combat damage remains just as valid.
Thanks for the input, that confirms my suspicions as well as the numbers I ran on the DPS spreadsheet about CS (esp. with Latro's) vs. a Hemo build, and diminishing Sub utility when progressing from 5 -> 10 -> 25 instances.
I am sorry if this has been answered in earlier posts. Already tried the search option with no luck.
Has anyone done the math on CB Evisc vs CB Mutilate in raids with a 41/20/0-spec with Imp Evisc?
I have almost always used my Cold Blood on 5cp Eviscerates until now, but to be honest I'm not really sure which one does more DPS.
Should be easy to figure out whether 2*non-crit Evis > 2.3*non-crit Mutilate, but that doesn't account for the guaranteed third combo point when you CB-Mutilate. I think I've read people claim the answer is Mutilate, but haven't done the math myself.
Should be easy to figure out whether 2*non-crit Evis > 2.3*non-crit Mutilate, but that doesn't account for the guaranteed third combo point when you CB-Mutilate. I think I've read people claim the answer is Mutilate, but haven't done the math myself.
The best time to CB mutilate is after a ruthless proc so that you can use a 4cp evis and short circuit your cycle getting an extra evis off in between snd refreshes.
Anyway, i've been struggling with the TNB proc the last few days in the short time ive worked on it. If anyone with more recent probability knowledge than mine (been almost 3 years since my last course in it) could help, it would be nice.
The part I'm having troubling modeling is the following:
What is the expected amount of time before a TNB proc wears off assuming it starts with 10 seconds up (ie just procced), given a P proc % and a variable X amount of hits(landed hits) in a 10 second span.
03/12/07, 6:11 PM
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