Rogue DPS Spreadsheet - Page 34

Quickshot · 03/23/07, 10:42 AM

Ok i admit i'm a noob : pf wrote how to modify items in the FAQ.

Glass · 03/23/07, 10:57 AM

You might be a noob, but with Grendizer as your avatar you sure ain't all bad! nice!

Quickshot · 03/23/07, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Glass

You might be a noob, but with Grendizer as your avatar you sure ain't all bad! nice!

Thanks !

advocate · 03/23/07, 7:38 PM

so it has come to my attention that they've patched dagger spec and fist spec so that you can't wear any offhand and get the crit bonus anymore. Can anyone confirm this, and if so, state how they changed it?

sp00n · 03/23/07, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by advocate

so it has come to my attention that they've patched dagger spec and fist spec so that you can't wear any offhand and get the crit bonus anymore. Can anyone confirm this, and if so, state how they changed it?

Wasn't it always that way?

Or do you mean your mainhand and specials don't receive the bonus unless you are wearing a dagger/fist weapon in your off hand as well?

Myul · 03/23/07, 7:55 PM

Different to warrior rogues weapon specc from dagger/fist was bugged, wearing a type of specced mainhand granted the bonus to any offhand as well. Stealth nerfed right now? I don't know, sorry.
If you wear a mainhand and specced to it, your mainhand (and all the styles done with it), allways gained the bonus.

advocate · 03/23/07, 7:56 PM

i mean wearing a MH dagger as dagger spec gave 5% crit to all attacks, MH / OH and specials, regardless of the offhand. Fist spec used to be the same way. Apparently this has been nerfed, does anyone know the details?

◊ Kalman · 03/23/07, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by advocate

i mean wearing a MH dagger as dagger spec gave 5% crit to all attacks, MH / OH and specials, regardless of the offhand. Fist spec used to be the same way. Apparently this has been nerfed, does anyone know the details?

No it didn't. People just thought it did and never bothered to prove whether it did or not.

advocate · 03/23/07, 8:00 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

No it didn't. People just thought it did and never bothered to prove whether it did or not.

well then explain how you believe it works

pf · 03/23/07, 8:06 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

No it didn't. People just thought it did and never bothered to prove whether it did or not.

Actually, I've seen numbers that supposedly show the offhand being affected by weapon spec despite being a different weapon type. I've also seen numbers that show the opposite. I've always believed they are separate, especially since weapon skill per hand was most definitely separate while leveling up. (having mh maxed and putting a low skill offhand in your offhand produced a lot of offhand misses).

Now that rogues have an offhand only attack, testing exactly how this works should be easier (although, shiv follows different attack rules and could be different than white damage).

advocate · 03/23/07, 8:10 PM

Originally Posted by pf

Actually, I've seen numbers that supposedly show the offhand being affected by weapon spec despite being a different weapon type. I've also seen numbers that show the opposite. I've always believed they are separate, especially since weapon skill per hand was most definitely separate while leveling up. (having mh maxed and putting a low skill offhand in your offhand produced a lot of offhand misses).

Now that rogues have an offhand only attack, testing exactly how this works should be easier (although, shiv follows different attack rules and could be different than white damage).

it should definitely be easy to test with shiv. anyone willing to?

◊ Kalman · 03/23/07, 8:20 PM

Originally Posted by advocate

well then explain how you believe it works

I've been very consistent in saying that I have no fucking clue which is actually true, since all the evidence I've seen has been internally inconsistent; that said, the best *tested* evidence I ever saw leaned more towards weapon spec being determined by hand, not by mainhand, so I would lean towards that answer.

• Aldriana · 03/23/07, 8:23 PM

A former guildie of mine actually tested this back in October 2006. Here are her findings (with minor adjustments made to protect the identities of those involved, in case they don't want to be known):

The question:

Can we actually confirm whether or not the crit chance from dagger spec and a dagger mainhand is applied to the OH regardless of weapon type?

Methodology:

I dueled a warlock friend, who was wearing tank gear with a void sac running to restore health. She faced away from me and I stood at max melee range, autoattacking only, so there would be no freak dodges to mess up the percentages. I was wearing only a tux and weapons.

My DPS was a good bit higher than her regen, so I had to stop once every 5 minutes or so to allow her to bandage.

Character stats

My character screen: 75 strength, 133 agi, 308 AP.

My weapon skill:
305 daggers with weapons expertise
304 swords (tried for over an hour in BL to get the last skillup, no luck) smiley
50 maces (lol)

Tooltip crit:
14.79% with Perd or a Kris MH and any weapon type OH
9.75% with a Cutlass MH and any weapon type OH
5.00% with a mace MH and any weapon type OH

19% predicted base miss rate (24% DW - 5% from precision)

We put her in 300 defense gear to simplify things (she usually has 329 def in her tank gear).

Bit of theorycraft:

Note that there is no way to distinguish a MH miss from an OH miss in the combat log; both have identical text and (obviously) no damage is listed. Since I was stopping and starting, I also cannot just go through and "count" (with my parse script) which hit should be which hand based on the weapon speeds.

Here are predicted attack type percentages based on well-tested mechanics.

1. MISS: Base miss rate of 19%. With 305 daggers versus 300 defense this would be 18.8%; with 304 swords it should be 18.84%.

2. DODGE/BLOCK/PARRY: 0%. I was standing behind her at the edge of the melee box.

3. GLANCING: 0%. The target was a player and the same level as me. Note that a 5% glancing blow rate would be expected versus a level 60 mob.

4. CRIT: Tooltip crit for my MH of 14.79%. +5 weapon skill should give me 0.2% more for about 15% crit. If the sword gets a different crit rate it will be 9.95%.
EDIT: I'm thinking now that the +5 weapon skill from weapons expertise is already included in the tooltip. So that would leave 14.79% daggers and 9.75% swords.

5. HIT: Whatever's left over. 66.21% for the daggers number; 71.21% for swords.
EDIT: assuming the lower numbers for crit above, it'd be 66.41% and 71.41% for swords.

So, the crit rate on successful attacks (versus all swings) is predicted to be about (14.99/81.2)=18.5% for daggers and (9.95/81.16)=12.3% for swords.
EDIT: assuming the lower crit rates, it would be 18.2% for daggers and 12.0% for swords.

Data Set #3:

(Sets 1 and 2 I am disregarding because they are too small and include complicating factors like dodges and 329 defense)

Weapons: Perd with +5 damage MH and a Cutlass OH. The sword hit on average for about 35, while Perd landed for 110-ish hits on average.

Over more than half an hour (minus pauses to allow my friend to bandage) I had 1429 total swings, including 982 hits (68.7%), 179 crits (12.5%), and 268 misses (18.8%).

I am assuming that anything with a hit below 50 or crit below 100 was the sword, and the rest were Perd. Without bothering to calculate the theoretical damage ranges (hey gimme a break I just ran Python scripts for 20 minutes), I believe this is a valid assumption because I had absolutely no hits between about 40 and 80, nor crits between about 90 and 150.

I get the following hit and crit count based on this assmuption:

Perd: 120 crits, 534 hits (654 total) = 18.3% crit on successful attacks
Sword: 59 crits, 448 hits (507 total) = 11.6% crit on successful attacks

Well that's pretty damn close to separate predictions above for daggers and swords. That looks to me like my sword offhand is not getting the +5% crit from dagger spec and a dagger mainhand. Please check for any errors in reasoning I might have made. smiley

EDIT: Miss rates were off by 1%, correcting percentages now.
EDIT 2: Changed the wrong number in correcting for edit 1. Fixed now.
EDIT 3: Adding links to the uber weapons I'm using.
EDIT 4: Added alternate values based on +weapons expertise being included in tooltip crit. Would be good to actually confirm this based on predicted crit rate from base, talents, and agi.
EDIT 5: Corrected nonsensical phrasing.

The conclusion? If you wield a dagger MH and some other weapon OH, Dagger spec will boost your MH crit rate but not your OH crit rate.

advocate · 03/23/07, 8:25 PM

i know 100% that the tooltip would update based on mainhand only in the character sheet.

edit just saw aldriana's post. qq i guess =\

sp00n · 03/23/07, 8:54 PM

Good testing done there.

Now, does weapon expertise affect the tooltip crit rate? :p

◊ Kalman · 03/23/07, 8:56 PM

Originally Posted by sp00n

Good testing done there.

Now, does weapon expertise affect the tooltip crit rate? :p

IIRC it does; crit, having a % readout, displays the benefit from talented improvements, while hit, lacking a % readout, does not.

(I know for sure that defense's effect on parry was reflected in the tooltip; I can't recall off the top of my head if +skill's is, but I'm near certain it is.)

• Aldriana · 03/23/07, 9:12 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

IIRC it does; crit, having a % readout, displays the benefit from talented improvements, while hit, lacking a % readout, does not.

(I know for sure that defense's effect on parry was reflected in the tooltip; I can't recall off the top of my head if +skill's is, but I'm near certain it is.)

That's my recollection as well, although I haven't honestly tested it recently.

Bleedo · 03/23/07, 9:47 PM

Version 2.2.3a is up, get it in the usual place: http://rogue.bleedo.net

Pretty simple, this is just Zoro's ranged socket fix & the copy/pastable PAWN string for buffed dps, whom Pf so graciously wrote up for us! Whee

Also, I'm in the process of starting up a bug tracker for the sheet, when it's done you'll be welcome to submit any incorrect item stats or other bugs/additions and maybe we'll get around to fixing them... until then, fix them yourself :-D

advocate · 03/23/07, 11:40 PM

good work as always

Bleedo · 03/24/07, 1:29 AM

OK, this is pretty new and stuff, maybe i'll change the default Mantis graphics later but for now, if you have any updated info for items or any other bugs with the sheet, feel free to make an account at the URL below and submit them as bugs:

http://rogue.bleedo.net/bugs

Signup is quick, not sure how to allow anonymous access so this'll have to do for now. I'll fix any bugs posted there.

koaschten · 03/24/07, 6:52 AM

Item Add Requests allowed? if so, do you want them in a certain format to make it as painless as possible?

Bleedo · 03/24/07, 8:27 AM

Originally Posted by koaschten

Item Add Requests allowed? if so, do you want them in a certain format to make it as painless as possible?

Sure, there should be a "New Item" category on the form somewhere. Add it like that and I'll get it in. no specific format is necessary really, I'm not a total idiot... dont be like "oh, can you add that one belt from that one place" though, because yeah.. thats not very helpful. Give me a wowhead link or a screenshot or just the stats, anything really... do your part i guess :-D

Dread · 03/24/07, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by Bleedo

Sure, there should be a "New Item" category on the form somewhere. Add it like that and I'll get it in. no specific format is necessary really, I'm not a total idiot... dont be like "oh, can you add that one belt from that one place" though, because yeah.. thats not very helpful. Give me a wowhead link or a screenshot or just the stats, anything really... do your part i guess :-D

Neat, ill send some items i've been missing right away

Elvenstein · 03/24/07, 2:47 PM

I added an item but accidentally added it as Item Update rather than New Item. Is there any way to edit?

Bleedo · 03/24/07, 4:12 PM

Originally Posted by Elvenstein

I added an item but accidentally added it as Item Update rather than New Item. Is there any way to edit?

I fixed it, np

I'll wait a bit longer today on any more people wanna submit, then add them all and post an updated version.