Rogue DPS Spreadsheet - Page 4

Gort · 10/22/06, 5:28 PM

It appears when I select MSA for MH (WF/Crusader), and use Iblis as OH, 5/5 sword spec, 0 mace spec. I'm assuming there's something fishy with the MSA proc, since similar does not occur when I select The Castigator as MH, with the other items unchanged.

Using latest Openoffice.

I can attempt to reproduce, save in that state, and pm you if the above doesn't help nail it down; let me know.

Nutron · 10/22/06, 5:29 PM

Maces with servo arm? Also, 3/5/5 was developed before evis got buffed somewhat. Because of this, it is sometimes better to do 5/5 instead of 3/5/5. However, the more buffs you get, the more it swings to 3/5/5. Also, keep in mind that sometimes it says 5/5 is better than 3/5/5 even though 3/5/5 will be better after procs are calculated in. (although the difference is very minor)

Yes I am using Misplaced Servo Arm and Castigator offhand (also anubisath warhammer). around 1700 ap, the hemo build starts to outdps combat build.

Nutron the issue is not that the -300ac will not be fully realized on any given raid mob, the issue is that serrated blades increases in effectiveness as the mobs debuffed armor level gets closer to 300. Reducing a mob from 2000ac to 1700ac has far little effect than 300ac to 0ac.

Yeah you are right, but in naxx, armor level are usualy pretty consistant if I judge by my damage. If anything, like pf said, it will only be better with less armor which is usualy the case in naxx.

Originally Posted by Hand

Why does my dps go down if I check the ghostly strike button? Shouldn't a 125% weapon strike do more than a hemmo? I realize it costs 5 more energy, but that shouldn't throw off your 5s/5e rotation or anything.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Basicaly it would do hemo damage + 25%. 25% of hemo comes out at more than 5 energy, 8.75 to be exact. So for 5 more energy, you get basicaly 3.75 energy's worth of dmg more from ghostly strike. Unless I somehow am overlooking something. Also with my 4 piece BS, it shouldnt break the 5/5 rotation. So why does it bring down dps that much?

pf · 10/22/06, 5:57 PM

Originally Posted by Gort

It appears when I select MSA for MH (WF/Crusader), and use Iblis as OH, 5/5 sword spec, 0 mace spec. I'm assuming there's something fishy with the MSA proc, since similar does not occur when I select The Castigator as MH, with the other items unchanged.

Using latest Openoffice.

I can attempt to reproduce, save in that state, and pm you if the above doesn't help nail it down; let me know.

Ok, i found the problem. Apparently the fix I used for excel does not work for OO. Quick fix until I update the sheet later is to set the proctype on iblis (mainhand) to 0.

Originally Posted by Hand

Why does my dps go down if I check the ghostly strike button? Shouldn't a 125% weapon strike do more than a hemmo? I realize it costs 5 more energy, but that shouldn't throw off your 5s/5e rotation or anything.

With a 5s/5e cycle, the cycle is very not complete when using hemo. (8.8 combo points required, 8.8x35 = 30.8, lose a second for evis and you are down to 29.8 seconds or some slight snd downtime). Even with the 4/9 bonus, I do not think you can sustain the cycle with 0 downtime. (8.8*2/3) = 5.8 hemo's x30% crit = 1.76 crits per cycle, so 5x1.76 = 8.8 energy per cycle. 30.45 second cycle, and you have 298+8.8 = 306.8 energy per cycle. One dodge and your cycle is not complete, thus you will lose some snd time while using GS. If you remove imp snd from the picture, you will notice that GS will boost your dps a decent amount.

Notyou · 10/23/06, 3:55 AM

Nutron:

Using my personal gear to check (http://ctprofiles.net/66110), I came up with numbers different than yours. Under no circumstances did the Hemo build out damage the Combat build until after the Hemo debuff estimate was included. If you're sure that that box was not the problem, I would look into the buffs.

Nutron · 10/23/06, 5:18 AM

Originally Posted by Notyou

Nutron:

Using my personal gear to check (http://ctprofiles.net/66110), I came up with numbers different than yours. Under no circumstances did the Hemo build out damage the Combat build until after the Hemo debuff estimate was included. If you're sure that that box was not the problem, I would look into the buffs.

you are also swords, i am maces. Switch that sword with a mace and check it out.

Notyou · 10/23/06, 6:10 AM

That's what I'm saying though. I swapped in the MSA/Anubisath using all the rest of my current gear, and put in a combat mace spec vs hemo with the same weapons. Combat came out 30 DPS ahead before factoring in the hemo debuff (which was a 40 DPS shift, giving Hemo the edge by 10 DPS). In fact, my Combat sword build with AQR/Iblis came out ahead of both if you don't factor in the hemo debuff.

At the same time, I did notice something interesting. Changing out Blessing of Kings/Might for Windfury/Strength of Earth, I noticed that the Combat maces build gained close to 10 DPS, while the Hemo build remained the same, bringing the two just about equal after factoring in the hemo debuff. Once again though, my sword build came out slightly on top, this time even after factoring in the hemo debuff, implying that Windfury gives a larger bonus to Combat than it does to Hemo.

Nutron · 10/23/06, 7:16 AM

I redownloaded and redid it from scratch...and now hemo is under by 30 dps unbuffed and by 15 dps raid buffed. (thats without counting the debuff). So im gonna ssume i had broken the spreadhseet somehow since the value of combat is significantly higher now.

But for 15 dps without factoring the hemo debuff concidering how fun it is to pvp with it as well, It's a fair tradeoff I'm gonna take :D

Animavilis · 10/23/06, 10:09 AM

What are the views on the best combat daggers fight start when we include thistle tea? Since we started farming patchwerk I've been wondering this and tried a few starts like bs,snd,bs,tea,bs,ar,bs.... or bs,bs,tea,bs,snd,ar,bs... (and a few more with blade flurry)
It probably isnt much difference considering how long those fights last but since we are min/maxing here ;]

Btw. I tried using 5s cp cycle as combat daggers before but I always had spare combo points after a few cycles (5cp 80-100 energy ~10 sec till snd ends) so it doesnt feel like optimum as the spreadsheet would sugest. I tried doing 5s cycle and 5s followed by 5r when I had spare cps and then starting snd from ~2-3cp again, the second cycle seems better. So from my experience the optimal one would be something like x*(5s),3r

porktoss · 10/23/06, 10:12 AM

I'm not sure if you saw my post on the wow boards, but I'm having a problem with ghostly strike. Using the exact same gear, buffs, and talents I'm getting some weird numbers. With ghostly strike unchecked, I get the exact same numbers. With it checked on both the current and dream sheets I get this:

Unbuffed	Current	Dream	Change	% Increase
Melee	166.26	166.26	0.00	0.00%
Instant	76.27	72.92	-3.34	-4.38%
Finisher	49.88	49.88	0.00	0.00%
Other	71.10	70.76	-0.34	-0.48%
Total	363.51	359.82	-3.69	-1.01%


Buffed	Current	Dream	Change	% Increase
Melee	166.26	166.26	0.00	0.00%
Instant	72.92	72.92	0.00	0.00%
Finisher	49.88	49.88	0.00	0.00%
Other	64.75	70.76	6.01	9.28%
Total	353.81	359.82	6.01	1.70%

Oh and thanks for all your hard work, I really appreciate the addition of hemo to the sheet =)

Animavilis · 10/23/06, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Demi9OD

I usually start with BS, BS, Tea, BS, SnD, AR, BF, 5pt, SnD when timer is almost out. Extra energy is converted into BS damage with a 5snd combat daggers standard cycle, so don't worry about that "6th" combo point, it's just going to happen occasionally, and that is accounted for in the spreadsheet.

Well the thing is I tried 5s with extra energy put into 6th cp bs and had less dps than using those 5cp on rupture and starting snd from ~2cp (so quite inefficient).
I havent used the cycle calc before so is the cycle below correct?

5s/5s/5s/5s/5s/3r :
Cycle Energy Damage	Base Surplus Energy	Deprecated	Cycle Time	Energy efficiency	Cycle DPS
48121,87719	                  4,497400442     4,497400442	152,25     102,1719725	    316,0714429

comparing to 5s its:
9510,977552	                 34,67320112	34,67320112    30,45	   102,9166667      	312,3473745

it seems long but I suppose it would be a matter of checking at how many cp and snd time you have to do rupture

pf · 10/23/06, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by porktoss

I'm not sure if you saw my post on the wow boards, but I'm having a problem with ghostly strike. Using the exact same gear, buffs, and talents I'm getting some weird numbers. With ghostly strike unchecked, I get the exact same numbers. With it checked on both the current and dream sheets I get this:

I saw it. I have also located the problem and fixed it on my local copy. The extra 5 energy from ghostly was not being counted against you on one of the cycle sheets.

Originally Posted by Animavilis

What are the views on the best combat daggers fight start when we include thistle tea?

I use bs bs AR snd bf bsx5. Usually I dont have snd downtime and I also use energy watch to make sure i get 160 energy from AR instead of 140. I then use the tea during the first 5 pt cycle to make sure i have plenty of slack energy to keep 5pt snd up without a ruthless proc.

◊ Kalman · 10/23/06, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Animavilis

Originally Posted by Demi9OD

I usually start with BS, BS, Tea, BS, SnD, AR, BF, 5pt, SnD when timer is almost out. Extra energy is converted into BS damage with a 5snd combat daggers standard cycle, so don't worry about that "6th" combo point, it's just going to happen occasionally, and that is accounted for in the spreadsheet.

Well the thing is I tried 5s with extra energy put into 6th cp bs and had less dps than using those 5cp on rupture and starting snd from ~2cp (so quite inefficient).
I havent used the cycle calc before so is the cycle below correct?

5s/5s/5s/5s/5s/3r :
Cycle Energy Damage	Base Surplus Energy	Deprecated	Cycle Time	Energy efficiency	Cycle DPS
48121,87719	                  4,497400442     4,497400442	152,25     102,1719725	    316,0714429

comparing to 5s its:
9510,977552	                 34,67320112	34,67320112    30,45	   102,9166667      	312,3473745

it seems long but I suppose it would be a matter of checking at how many cp and snd time you have to do rupture

It doesn't really work. The cycle sheet does not, and cannot, protect you from yourself; 5s/5s/5s/5s/5s/3r doesn't work in practice the way it works on the sheet, essentially because it ignores the finite size of your energy buffer.

(There are some minor effects wherein the simulation prefers that your surplus energy be as close to 0 as possible to maximize cycle DPS, but reality prefers a small positive surplus energy to protect against streaks of bad luck on parry.)

Jdizzle · 10/23/06, 2:16 PM

With fist spec being better than sword spec, howcome HW Blade > HW Claw by 11 dps? The stats on the weapons are the same, the only difference is in the spec.

Tirigarde · 10/23/06, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by pf

Large Changes:
Crusader no longer is displayed as added strength. The buff is given a dps value that is added as proc dps. This allows for better values on the next-stat sheet and prevents it from being circular with the cycle sheet. Furthermore, this allows you to match your stats to a profile better.

In the Combat Swords spreadsheet RC 5c, the crusader enchant was slightly better (0.01dps) than the +15 agility enchant for my off-hand weapon, the Warblade of the Hakkari. Now in the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet 2.02, the +15 agility enchant is about 0.5dps better than the crusader enchant. Is this truly the case? There is a link to my CTprofile in my signature below.

edit~here is a link to the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet v2.02 with my gear already inputted.
http://www.savefile.com/files/189089

pf · 10/23/06, 2:53 PM

Originally Posted by Tirigarde

Originally Posted by pf

Large Changes:
Crusader no longer is displayed as added strength. The buff is given a dps value that is added as proc dps. This allows for better values on the next-stat sheet and prevents it from being circular with the cycle sheet. Furthermore, this allows you to match your stats to a profile better.

In the Combat Swords spreadsheet RC 5c, the crusader enchant was slightly better (0.01dps) than the +15 agility enchant for my off-hand weapon, the Warblade of the Hakkari. Now in the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet 2.02, the +15 agility enchant is about 0.5dps better than the crusader enchant. Is this truly the case? There is a link to my CTprofile in my signature below.

The cycle sheets being added probably changed the value of procs for swords. If a cycle has some snd downtime, then crusader will not be as good due to fewer procs. I have not taken the time to put in your gear, but I am assuming this is the case.

roq · 10/23/06, 3:04 PM

Just playing with the Sheet, i notice that if i equip the Ibis in my offhand, i don't lose dagger spec and keep my 5 crit. But i thought that, you lose your (dagger/fist/sword/mace) if you don't have the same weapon type in both hands. Is (dagger/fist/sword/mace) spec based on what is in your main hand regardless of what is in your offhand?

This could be a bug or this could be how it works in game, I am just not sure. I know that if i equip a non dagger in my MH in game, i do lose Dagger spec.

pf · 10/23/06, 3:19 PM

Originally Posted by roq

Just playing with the Sheet, i notice that if i equip the Ibis in my offhand, i don't lose dagger spec and keep my 5 crit. But i thought that, you lose your (dagger/fist/sword/mace) if you don't have the same weapon type in both hands. Is (dagger/fist/sword/mace) spec based on what is in your main hand regardless of what is in your offhand?

This could be a bug or this could be how it works in game, I am just not sure. I know that if i equip a non dagger in my MH in game, i do lose Dagger spec.

When you look at your critrate. It shows the listed critrate of your mainhand weapon. Notice that the icon is always the same as the weapon. From testing that has been done by others (not myself), an offhand sword does not recieve the benefit of dagger spec even if the mainhand is a dagger.

roq · 10/23/06, 4:29 PM

Originally Posted by pf

Originally Posted by roq

Just playing with the Sheet, i notice that if i equip the Ibis in my offhand, i don't lose dagger spec and keep my 5 crit. But i thought that, you lose your (dagger/fist/sword/mace) if you don't have the same weapon type in both hands. Is (dagger/fist/sword/mace) spec based on what is in your main hand regardless of what is in your offhand?

This could be a bug or this could be how it works in game, I am just not sure. I know that if i equip a non dagger in my MH in game, i do lose Dagger spec.

When you look at your critrate. It shows the listed critrate of your mainhand weapon. Notice that the icon is always the same as the weapon. From testing that has been done by others (not myself), an offhand sword does not recieve the benefit of dagger spec even if the mainhand is a dagger.

But a offhand dagger would still recieve the crit bonus even though it isn't listed in your profile manager? I guess what i am trying to figure it exactly how specs work.

Can someone answer this question. If you have sword spec and a Mace/Dagger/Fist in your MH and a sword in our offhand. Do you still get Sword spec Procs. That should clear things up for me.

◊ Kalman · 10/23/06, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by roq

Originally Posted by pf

Originally Posted by roq

Just playing with the Sheet, i notice that if i equip the Ibis in my offhand, i don't lose dagger spec and keep my 5 crit. But i thought that, you lose your (dagger/fist/sword/mace) if you don't have the same weapon type in both hands. Is (dagger/fist/sword/mace) spec based on what is in your main hand regardless of what is in your offhand?

This could be a bug or this could be how it works in game, I am just not sure. I know that if i equip a non dagger in my MH in game, i do lose Dagger spec.

When you look at your critrate. It shows the listed critrate of your mainhand weapon. Notice that the icon is always the same as the weapon. From testing that has been done by others (not myself), an offhand sword does not recieve the benefit of dagger spec even if the mainhand is a dagger.

But a offhand dagger would still recieve the crit bonus even though it isn't listed in your profile manager? I guess what i am trying to figure it exactly how specs work.

Can someone answer this question. If you have sword spec and a Mace/Dagger/Fist in your MH and a sword in our offhand. Do you still get Sword spec Procs. That should clear things up for me.

You get sword spec procs from offhand swings, which proc MH swings. You do not proc sword spec swings with your MH swings.

◊ castille · 10/23/06, 5:40 PM

To further explain --

You get the advantages of that spec for each weapon individually. If you have dagger spec, and you offhand iblis with a pugio MH'd, and let's say a base crit o f 26%, your mainhand would have 31% crit, the OH would have only a 26%. Subsequently, in the same scenario with 5 sword spec and no dagger spec, you have a 5% chance on all OH swings to receive a new attack, but nothing from the main hand swings or specials.

It will still reset your MH swing timer, however, and all the damage on the extra attack will be from the MH weapon.

roq · 10/23/06, 5:45 PM

Thanks you two, that explains everything i was wondering.

Clemdu · 10/24/06, 11:35 AM

I was playing with the spreadsheet and I noticed that having Instant Poison applied to my weapons was giving me more dps than Elemental Sharpening Stones. I'm not exactly into math but since those stones are so annoying to farm I was under the impression that they would be more interesting for dps (actually I was using them on special occasions when i really wanted to top the dm)...

Is it a bug of the spreadsheet or am I really stupid ?

Zoro · 10/24/06, 11:56 AM

Thanks guys, really good work here - and I especially appreciate the work gone into the energy cycles math, that must have been a fair slog.

Anyway, first of a small bug. Both the Unbuffed and Buffed DPS sheets are incorrect in the Hemo damage lines.

In the Unbuffed C4 (Hemo min non-crit) references B3 (Off hand Avg non-crit) when it should C2 (Main min non-crit), and D4 (Hemo max non-crit) references B4 (Hemo avg non-crit) when it should D2 (Main max non-crit).

In the Buffed, it's simply you pasted the Sin Strike formulas not the Hemo formulas.

Doesn't effect the DPS calculations at all, just looks wrong :)

Anyway, on to the meat of the matter. I realise it's a long way off but I'm scraping together a TBC version. A lot of the talents were fairly easy to implement, now coming to the abilities. Was trying to add Mutilate and found I couldn't figure out how to set the 'use this if talent x chosen' part. Where've you hidden it cos I'll be damned if I can find it!

Certainly talents will be worth doing if Blizz go ahead with the mooted preliminary patch.

pf · 10/24/06, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Zoro

Thanks guys, really good work here - and I especially appreciate the work gone into the energy cycles math, that must have been a fair slog.

Anyway, first of a small bug. Both the Unbuffed and Buffed DPS sheets are incorrect in the Hemo damage lines.

In the Unbuffed C4 (Hemo min non-crit) references B3 (Off hand Avg non-crit) when it should C2 (Main min non-crit), and D4 (Hemo max non-crit) references B4 (Hemo avg non-crit) when it should D2 (Main max non-crit).

In the Buffed, it's simply you pasted the Sin Strike formulas not the Hemo formulas.

Doesn't effect the DPS calculations at all, just looks wrong :)

Anyway, on to the meat of the matter. I realise it's a long way off but I'm scraping together a TBC version. A lot of the talents were fairly easy to implement, now coming to the abilities. Was trying to add Mutilate and found I couldn't figure out how to set the 'use this if talent x chosen' part. Where've you hidden it cos I'll be damned if I can find it!

Certainly talents will be worth doing if Blizz go ahead with the mooted preliminary patch.

The wrong numbers are simply there for show. I will try to get them fixed though.

Adding mutilate would not be too hard, just make a talent option on the main page, then I suggest looking at the cycle sheet.

The only hard talents to implement for TBC will be combat potency, seal fate (not new, but still needs to be done) and find weakness. Everything else is pretty straight forward. Combat potency will just require pulling out pen and paper to get around circular references (hopefully its all linear, but i have not looked at it yet). Seal fate and find weakness will be a little tougher thing to handle. If you dont crit either find weakness mutilate, do you a) use another finisher at 4cp? or b) use mutilate to get to 5cp? That question is not currently answered by the cycle sheet.

Zoro · 10/24/06, 12:19 PM

As usual, I was being an idiot. I couldn't locate instatk, to change the talent selection for choice of attack. Because, you know, spelling it correctly never helps does it?

Yes, you pretty much listed the talents I hadn't bothered with yet. I thought I'd come up with a really clever approximation for Combat Potency, sadly it fell over when I pasted it into the new version.

Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons...
It's not even the choice you put forward above. Also, c) use Shiv to get to 5cp?
What's the probable number of DPs at this point for different poison load outs?
How does Envenom work out in this? (Personally, I'm not touching that with a barge pole till it's the last thing left).