pf

I'm gonna take a wild gander and assume the proc rate is 3%. This gives us about a 19% uptime for combat swords and about a 13% uptime for daggers(assuming no invis cooldown).

So, 1000*.19= 190 average armor reduced. Starting with 25% reduction, that would put the mob around 23.97% for a dps gain of 1.4%. To contrast this, Hourglass of the Unraveller provides a dps gain of ~2%.

btw, http://thottbot.com/s37173 for the procrate.

 

Xizenta

Pf, it sounds like you are not completely ready to leave :P.

Sure you don't want to pick up your work again? I just hope you don't stop yourself (from going back on what you said,) if you ever do decide it was fun.

 

Abaxial

Ippon another stand-alone parser is http://brockjones.com/wowparser/, it's also java based and you can export your data as html or xml for posting somewhere.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...ks/Abaxial.png

 

pf

Well, I never have picked up another hobby, but I enjoy math, but actually playing WoW is not something I desire to do anymore because of the time restraints required. I cannot be a casual WoW player. Being the sole caretaker of a spreadsheet based on a game that I no longer play is kind of silly. Of course, still partaking in discussions of said game on forums is almost as bad . But I have not had a desire to play WoW after quitting as I now have more free time to do other things. The time required to play WoW was not as bad as having to schedule my evening time around WoW raiding.

 

koaschten

somewhat back on topic, we are wiping badly on magtheridon tonight, totally uncommon for us, but good for testing... in 5 tries no miss so far with
WEx Latros 305 hit (couldnt match the 302/303)

adds and magtheridon are "skull level"

edit:
if you feel the need for parsing the combatlog, get it here. swstats telling me i didnt miss anything was sufficient for me.

edit2:
this log contains the trinket procs too, look for "Spikey gains Armor Penetration."

 

Cloak

Has anybody found any leaked values for the glancing blow reduction yet?

Also, is this reduction going to be Rogue-specific? Tigole's clarification post was a little ambiguous.

The more you know, the less you understand.

 

PessimiStick

Parsed data for last night's Gruul/Maulgar:

Maulgar:
Hits: 235
Crits: 100
Dodges: 25
Parries: 8
Immune: 1

Gruul:
Hits: 347
Crits: 152
Dodges: 25
Parries: 1

No misses in either fight.

 

Gogge

Going with 303 hit rating and 363 weapon skill (screenshot) over 2210 white swings against bosses in Karazhan I got one miss, against Attumen (combatlog).

Interestingly enough I also got one miss against a level 70 (checking wowhead that's what I assume it was) spectral patron.

 

Thuy

Sorry for interrupting your discussion.
But something in the spreadsheet puzzled me.

"No, Envenom is not really a superior move (sometimes it can be about equal) to Eviscerate in the majority of situations and is not worth modeling,"

With all due respect, this can't apply to all situations and spec. I have maxed out both Vile poisons and Improved poisons. This means a) My deadly poisons tick for more, and gets stacked faster. b) My envenom hits harder.
Improved evisc didnt give me very much higher dps anyway.
The thing that you consume deadly poisons is not really an issue; they get stacked up very quickly anyway (using the glad. shiv for OH mutilate). That damage lost is completely negliable.
Having an enchantment shaman in our raids, and he is kind enough to let me consume his stormstrikes. Thats another 20% on envenom.

Now how come you call this a PvP skill and ignore it completely in the spreadsheet? For any mutilating rogue not using evisc, he will surely get lower dps values than he should in the sheet.

And, comparing my envenoms against a fellow guild mate's evisc, I turn out better on almost every bossfight (karazan + gruuls), even though he has specced imp evisc and aggression, and me not using stormstrike. Actually he has slightly more AP to.
If anyone can give me solid evidence that envenom truly is a PvP skill, be my guest. But for now, I choose to believe in it's use for PvE as well (and not only against high armored enemies).

 

• Aldriana

There's a calculator investigating this at http://rogue.bleedo.net/

The basic idea is that while envenom does hit harder, the loss of poison damage from having to restack it means the actual damage it delivers is no higher than Eviscerate, even if you have all the talents for it.

Basically: it's exclusion is not done via naive characterization of it as a pvp skill; it's been studied and found to be inferior in the majority of cases.

Ald

 

◊ Kalman

If you read back in this thread a ways, I presented a simple model showing that it isn't necessarily inferior in all cases.

 

pf

Thuy: 2 things, 1st off, lets read the FAQ in the spreadsheet.

"Q: I use envenom instead of eviscerate, is there an option for this?
A: No, Envenom is not really a superior move (sometimes it can be about equal) to Eviscerate in the majority of situations and is not worth modeling, considering the detail that would be required as it removes Deadly Poison dps from your total damage done. Envenom was designed as a pvp move, not as a pve move, keep that in mind. Envenom was designed as a pvp move, not as a pve move, keep that in mind, I recommend only using it in pve against very high armor targets or as your target is within 10 seconds of dying."

If you do not think Envenom was designed as a PVP move, you can disagree with me, but it was not designed with raiding in mind (just like CoS was not designed for raiding, but it can be useful in raids).

Secondly, I made a nice little spreadsheet to compare the 2 moves which can be found here: http://rogue.bleedo.net/envevis.xls

You can change the variables in the spreadsheet, but what you will almost always find is that envenom is not far enough ahead of evis to worry about modeling, in fact, in most cases, evis wins. The problem you have is that you are not seeing the entire picture. You see "lot bigger number" with the immediate envenom. I used to be the same way with regards to evis and snd. I thought SnD was trash, and in fact, the first time I used it in a raid situation was when I was mind controlled by Lucifron's add. With gladiators shiv on a boss, it will take ~15 seconds to get a 5 stack again. (the above sheet actually assumes that you never have a stack disappear before it 5 stacks which is incorrect as this will happen some)
15 seconds * 75 * 1.2 / 2 = 675 lost damage. 675 damage is not "completely negliable[sic]"

If one has vile poisons and stormstrike to consume, then obviously, envenom is superior to eviscerate. However, you might not always have stormstrike, and to attempt to model the % chance that you will have a 5DP stack on top of the lost amount of DP is simply not worth it for the marginal dps gain you will get. And again, if you do not believe what I am saying, I challenge you to do the math (as I already have and made public) and see what you come up with when you actually take into account all of the factors.

 

• Aldriana

I didn't say all. I said "most". Which I stand by. And even if one does find that you can do an extra 50 damage with it... darn. Damage calculator is 3 dps off. Tragic.

 

◊ Kalman

Considering the effort that's been put into it and the arguments on things like 1 roll vs. 2 roll yellow where the end result may be far less than 3 DPS different, where exactly do you get off playing high and mighty and saying "Oh, 3 DPS difference isn't worth including!"

 

• Aldriana

And if it were off by 3 dps in the 90% case, it'd be worth arguing over. But it's not. In 95% of cases, it does less damage, and shouldn't be considered. In the other 5%, it's a trivial difference, and adds significantly to the complexity. If you'd like to write the excel to compute the damage from it, by all means, go ahead. But I can see why it's not a priority for the people maintaining the spreadsheet.

And as a note: 1 roll vs 2 roll makes a whole lot more than 3 dps different.

 

Grimmlokk

Jesus this is depressing. I hadn't gotten a new version since TBC but thought I should since I started smithing for the maces. Just made first one. Plugged in my stuff to do some comparisons. Mostly to compare second mace(88dps one) to my current MH(Vindi Brand). They're almost dead even, but the depressing part was that sword spec with my Latro's offhand is more DPS than mace spec.

Haven't seen a lot of comparison on maces here(I haven't read back that far either), but is this accurate? Even with the blue post. This is really depressing=/

 

Zoro

At the moment, if you wish to go non daggers for raiding there is but one choice.

Combat Swords with Latro's offhand.

It's depressing that something so easy to obtain, aquired so early in your TBC game dominates so far in.

 

Meynar

Tbh though thats not exactly a new phneomena i mean look at trinket itemisation for Priests pre TBC, essentially it was DM trinket, Scale of Onyxia (although i swear this never drops) and Rejuvinating Gem up until Naxx. Also unless you were prepared to PvP after PB off ragnaros where was the dagger progression until C'thun? Its the type of itmeisation holes that dont get filled in as they get glossed over. Admittedly some of these are in raid instaces not non heroic 5 mans but still.

 

Thuy

Pf:
Thanks, I hadn't seen that spreadsheet. My facts on the poisons stacks was completely based on field observations, as for me, the dp stacks seem to bounce up again very quickly.

Now as I told you, I am using gladiators shiv for offhand, and I am mutilate specced.
Using your spreadsheat about evisc/envenom, my choice of finisher is envenom, if I type in 1.4 as my OH speed.
I am not a rogue only looking at "big numbers", trust me, and I do use SnD.. I take a lot of effort to improve my cycles, hence why I posted on this forum .

There is another factor to the equation as well, if you spec mutilate, it's hard to design a build with 3/3 imp evisc, when considering the dps boost you get from 5/5 vile poisons/imp poisons.

And further still, on all in boss tries we tend to use battledrums. Also, a shaman pops heroism once a bossfight. Do you think all these factors included to increase attack speed can favor envenom above evsicerate when they are used? It seems so on the spreadsheet.

Disclaimer: I am not trying to say in any way that your spreadsheet is lacking, or attacking it in anyway, I just thought the FAQ was interesting, and I am simply looking for ways to improve my gaming. I have enough math through my studies already, so I take your word for it pf .

 

koaschten

heroism is called bloodlust, cause the horde got the true shamans

to safe me from not posting contructively....
bloodlust is 40 seconds of 30% haste on a 10 minute cooldown
figuring this into sustained dps you can basically break it down to

every 600 seconds 40 seconds of 30% haste -> permanently 2% haste... thats in range of the haste bonus of your mongoose enchants

 

Thuy

Yeah and as I said, heroism might favor envenom when it's used? (Not as an argument to use envenom the entire battle).

 

Crumpet

I just have a small query.

With a pure combat-daggers talent build, The Night Blade main hand seems to do about 21 dps more than Gladiator's Shanker. This is with the same offhand, same gear, same cycle, same everything. Gladiator's Shanker has far higher dps, average damage and stats, the only thing which TNB has is the proc, but surely that cannot equate to over 70 dps?


Also I'm not sure if this would be true ingame, but a pure-pve combat-daggers build, with Gladiator's Shanker/Gladiator's Shiv is 3 dps less than a full combat-fist build with Gladiator's Fist/Gladiator's Shiv. This is of course with the same equipment and the highest damage cycles for each. (With stats 1630 AP, 210 hit, 29% crit)

I've always been under the impression that on straight boss fights (which is what the spreadsheet models) combat daggers will always be more dps than fists/swords.

Could the spreadsheet be right in that Combat Fists can outdamage Combat Daggers?



EDIT: Just noticed another small thing. Why has the DPS of "Hourglass of the Unraveller" has gone from 35.2 > 22.01 from version 2.2.1 > 2.2.3b of the spreadsheet. I've been farming it for a while now due to it's very high DPS, but now it is on par with DFT and Abacus so I'm not sure I should bother.

 

◊ Hanos

I picked up a Fool's Bane the other night... let's just say Mace spec is nice for farming and PvP, however for pure PvE, by going Maces you are giving up atleast 5% damage, due to no quality offhands (so you need to use a non-mace offhand, preferably a 1.3-1.4 speed weapon). The numbers are accurate, even if you could get a 1.4 speed Mace offhand it would still be vastly inferior. So enjoy your Mace for PvP and farming, and pick up a real PvE weapon in the form of a dagger, sword or fist to put out the most damage possible.

 

roq

The hidden cooldown was added in 2.2.2. Here is the FAQ for that spreadsheet:

 

Crumpet

Thanks. Answers to my other questions also would be really appreciated