Also i am currently using leggings of assassination but some days ago i got http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30538 from sp heroic. Equipping gems on those pants would it be better than the assassination pants?
What kind of gems would you guys suggest along with the 40ap enchant?
Also i am currently using leggings of assassination but some days ago i got http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30538 from sp heroic. Equipping gems on those pants would it be better than the assassination pants?
What kind of gems would you guys suggest along with the 40ap enchant?
No offense, but this thread is called "Rogue DPS Spreadsheet". I would suggest getting said spreadsheet from http://rogue.bleedo.net/ and putting in your own specifics, since the answers will depend on that.
Good rule of thumb is that each .1 speed is worth about 10 dps on the OH. Now, the stat mods possible from the gemmable one make it a bit more appealing, but I'm willing to bet that the faster one is still better. But plug it in to the spreadsheet and find out for yourself.
If you're lucky enough to snag a Talon of Azshara, swords are better in all cases, due to its slower speed at same dps.
I would just like to echo his analysis. Unfortunately for me I found out the hard way and am now working to get Latro's to drop after I passed it twice to others. Case in point we were doing Magtheridon Wednesday and a rogue who, in every way, has inferior gear; hit, crit, attack power was right with me as a sword rogue when he had Aldor Exalted Sword+ Latro's.
We're both good pve rogues. If I would have known this earlier I'd have Gladiator's MH Sword by this tuesday so it kinda burns. Note: I did pass on Latro's both times when I was Fist with Gladiator's Offhand/Big Bad Claw.
So far it's showing close to a 15 dps increase in the spreadsheet(Normal raid buffed) had I switched from Gladiator's Shiv to Latro's. Kinda crazy the whole thing considering one has basic dps of 88.2 dp and the other has 71.8. I could be missing something of course.
Also: Should I spec 2/2 Murder if Rupture is going to invariable be my main non-snd finisher? Or should I keep 2 points in Imp Evis for those rare cases? Improved poisons seems to outshine vile poisons for combat slightly is there a cutoff for a min amount in imp poisons(I suppose to be able to avoid the off-chance of deadly falling off).
I post very infrequently here, but I've read it alot. Love this rogue sanctuary of hard number information.
Probably going to get more glinting dawnstones when I can afford it.
Last edited by Duskmourn : 04/06/07 at 3:54 AM.
Reason: new info/errors
I would just like to echo his analysis. Unfortunately for me I found out the hard way and am now working to get Latro's to drop after I passed it twice to others. Case in point we were doing Magtheridon Wednesday and a rogue who, in every way, has inferior gear; hit, crit, attack power was right with me as a sword rogue when he had Aldor Exalted Sword+ Latro's.
I don't understand all the hype about this proposed weapon skill in the next patch. Basing my arguement on the spreadsheet, if I was using Glad Slicer/Latro's I would output 924.04 DPS unbuffed, and then if I was using Glad Fist/Glad Shiv I would output 922.29.
Now, that is considering lvl73 mobs or boss mobs, if I uncheck the boss mob defense button I then get:
Slicer/Latro's = 953.03
Fist/Shiv = 960.57
So.. Slicer/Latro's may do say 2 more dps on bosses, but Fist/Shiv still does more on lvl70-72 trash. Is it worth spending your points on a Gladiator's Slicer on the sole fact that Latro's is so 'imba' right now, when it's bound to be nerfed in the near future anyway?
Maybe I'm completely wrong, I'm new to the whole theorycrafting side, but it's just what I have observed
I had the same problem when i replaced my Latro's with the Gladiator Quickblade. I should have saved the points to get a Gladiator Slicer and replace my Vindicator's Brandt.
I don't understand all the hype about this proposed weapon skill in the next patch. Basing my arguement on the spreadsheet, if I was using Glad Slicer/Latro's I would output 924.04 DPS unbuffed, and then if I was using Glad Fist/Glad Shiv I would output 922.29.
Now, that is considering lvl73 mobs or boss mobs, if I uncheck the boss mob defense button I then get:
Slicer/Latro's = 953.03
Fist/Shiv = 960.57
So.. Slicer/Latro's may do say 2 more dps on bosses, but Fist/Shiv still does more on lvl70-72 trash. Is it worth spending your points on a Gladiator's Slicer on the sole fact that Latro's is so 'imba' right now, when it's bound to be nerfed in the near future anyway?
Maybe I'm completely wrong, I'm new to the whole theorycrafting side, but it's just what I have observed
Before the expansion hit I wasn't ever anything but swords(2 years worth) because I was an extra attack/proc whore. I went fists after the obvious upgrade from a 70 dps sword to the Big Bad and got sick of it quick. I suppose I could go for the fist, but frankly I don't want to do fist spec anymore.
All blizzard needs to do is make a higher dps 1.4 speed sword than Latro's or a 1.3 sword =] Oh and gimmie your Wastewalker chest!
With basic raid buffs and pots the gap in dps increases with Latro's in the spreadsheet. I assume because of more 'extra attack' crits.
All blizzard needs to do is make a higher dps 1.4 speed sword than Latro's or a 1.3 sword =] Oh and gimmie your Wastewalker chest!
I thought the reason Latro's was going to be so imba is because of the +sword skill, which next patch when the +skill is changed will make it imba. The quick speed is obviously a bonus but I thought the reason people are getting so worked up about it is because of the +skill.
And indeed, with buffs the gap does increase between swords and fists, but it's still a negligible amount in my opinion. On bosses with every buff you can imagine the 2dps gap goes up to 14dps or so, and when you're pulling 1500+ dps I doubt it's noticable.
Would be nice to hear some other views on Fist/Shiv or Slicer/Latro's
EDIT: Noes you can't have my WW chest! (do you know how many hellish BF runs it took!)
I was under the impression that the only change next patch, in regard to combat mechanics, was the reduction of the glancing penalty and has nothing to do with weapon skill.
I thought the reason Latro's was going to be so imba is because of the +sword skill, which next patch when the +skill is changed will make it imba. The quick speed is obviously a bonus but I thought the reason people are getting so worked up about it is because of the +skill.
The reason people get worked up about Latro's is the speed; the +skill is nice, but not that important in comparison to the poison and potency bonuses from a 1.4 speed weapon.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
The reason people get worked up about Latro's is the speed; the +skill is nice, but not that important in comparison to the poison and potency bonuses from a 1.4 speed weapon.
Nearly wanted to cry when I ran past a Rogue dual-wielding a pair of Latro's. Sad when people don't even understand the basics.
I would just like to echo his analysis. Unfortunately for me I found out the hard way and am now working to get Latro's to drop after I passed it twice to others. Case in point we were doing Magtheridon Wednesday and a rogue who, in every way, has inferior gear; hit, crit, attack power was right with me as a sword rogue when he had Aldor Exalted Sword+ Latro's.
Latro's alone doesn't come anywhere close to explaining that difference (unbuffed Latro's would give you 6 more DPS and buffed, it would give you 22 more), I would try looking at your cycles to see what is going on. For example are you linking all your cooldowns? You get much more out of them if you blow trinket, blade flurry and AR all at the same time. Based on the spreadsheet you should be beating him by 40 DPS unbuffed and 86 DPS buffed based on your armory profiles (I assumed you had an Abacus in the slot of the Riding crop, if not the gap would be slightly smaller). Basically if his cycles are cleaner then yours then it is close enough to nulify the gear gap.
Actually, I just looked again and he is speced for improved sap... so the difference should be even bigger... bottomline, Latro's doesn't explain the difference. Were you guys in the same group with the same buffs? Was he potted up more then you? Something else is at play here... just trying to figure out what.
Latro's isn't that big of an upgrade for you, I would however try to pick up the Handgrips of Assassination in BM (4 DPS unbuffed, 5 buffed) and the Hourglass if you don't have it, so if you get Latro's great, also as a Scryer Socrethar's Girdle is a pretty big upgrade over Bonescythe (8 DPS unbuffed, 13 buffed), those upgrades
Originally Posted by Kalman
The reason people get worked up about Latro's is the speed; the +skill is nice, but not that important in comparison to the poison and potency bonuses from a 1.4 speed weapon.
Although when they are comparing it to the Gladiator's Shiv which has a 1.4 speed as well, yet ~17 more DPS, and they get lower numbers, it isn't the speed. It is the combination of sword skill rating and sword spec procs that make up that 17 DPS gap. I would still stick with the Shiv, if you already have it, and have it enchanted.
I inspected him to confirm that he was indeed main-handing a 1.4 speed weapon. They both had +15 Agility enchants too.
*facepalm*
Yeah... you wonder how some people get the gear they have, or how they could possibly make it through some of the 5 mans to get the drops... then again the unbuffed DPS difference between Latro's/Latro's and Edge of the Cosmos/Latro's is only 30DPS give or take depending on gear (and it is better then AQR/Latro's).... no where close to the difference created by some of the specs I have seen.
In response to Duskmourn's question about Murder as filler, I decided to go with it when I respec'd out of Imp. Sap last night. It was sort of a tossup between Murder and 2 points in Imp. Poisons. Poisons theoretically give more DPS, and probably work on more mobs, except I'm not always using poisons or even damage poisons. I don't think that you'll be able to notice a difference between the two. In the end, I have to admit that I took Murder more for the big numbers factor, and my OCD-ness about completing talents.
On a side note, I'm finding it hard to fall into a steady cycle with my 19/42 build, 2 piece T4, and Latro's (as well as few "tank 'n' spanks"). The combination of non-steady energy regeneration, long SnD durations, and maxed Ruthlessness has me more often than not using really odd cycles. Since so many fights are moving, or in and out, it makes it really hard to tell whether I'm losing damage by using more complicated cycles. I'm finding that once I get a 5 point SnD up, I can get off both a 5 point Rupture and Evis and a 1 point SnD before the SnD expires. I should really play with the Cycle Builder and see if I should be trying for a more rigid, shorter cycle. Regardless, it's a hell of a lot of fun managing a cycle with 3 possible finishers, depending on the immediate and upcoming situation.
Why are people goin on about a weapon skill change? I HEARD no so such thing and i dont think its anywhere confirmed.... You get similar DPS using Fist/shiv with slicer/latros.... Thing is, as always, people predict no upgrade in 1.4 speed swords, whereas there will always be an upgrade in dagger DPS with high speed.
The reason people choose Fist/shiv over slicer/latros is that Fists are WAAYYY more reiliable in PvP and + 5crit chance on evisc is greater than sword specs extra swing which can be dodged, missed parried....
Why are people goin on about a weapon skill change? I HEARD no so such thing and i dont think its anywhere confirmed.... You get similar DPS using Fist/shiv with slicer/latros.... Thing is, as always, people predict no upgrade in 1.4 speed swords, whereas there will always be an upgrade in dagger DPS with high speed.
The reason people choose Fist/shiv over slicer/latros is that Fists are WAAYYY more reiliable in PvP and + 5crit chance on evisc is greater than sword specs extra swing which can be dodged, missed parried....
I'm personally second guessing whether to get the Shanker which was my original thought or the Ripper, I already have the shiv and am happy with grabbing it. I guess my greatest concern is whether they will continue to itemize fists or not, which has previously not been the case.
If you'd read the earlier posts in this thread, you would understand that the talk regarding weapon skill is in response to a Blue post on WoW-EU forums.
People can predict all sorts of things about upcoming content, and it doesn't mean anything unless it actually happens. I can predict that there will in fact be a new epic 1.4 speed sword in The Eye, Hyjal, or Black Temple if baseless speculation is acceptable.
Finally, your comments on crit vs. extra hit mechanics show that you are again ignoring work done earlier in this thread and others, not to mention that this spreadsheet is concerned with PvE damage. The sword spec model used in this spreadsheet accounts for the negative possibilities. If you are really concerned about PvP, you should consider that serious arena teams tend to stack resilience, which mitigates perceived advantages to stacking crit.
In the future, please take time to read earlier parts of a thread, as well as use capitalization, punctuation, and spell check before posting in these forums.
I'm personally second guessing whether to get the Shanker which was my original thought or the Ripper, I already have the shiv and am happy with grabbing it. I guess my greatest concern is whether they will continue to itemize fists or not, which has previously not been the case.
There hasnt been itemization previsoulsy, only with GM weapons, but i can assure there wil always be fists available as gladiator weapon which wil be on par with any other weapon avail radi wise... I think il opt for glad fist, even being human and all.... Dont like swords PvP and dagger itemization always been better in raids than any other sword/fist....
This is already clear in kara where there are only 81 dps swords/fist, but there is a 85 dps dagger avail.
If you'd read the earlier posts in this thread, you would understand that the talk regarding weapon skill is in response to a Blue post on WoW-EU forums.
People can predict all sorts of things about upcoming content, and it doesn't mean anything unless it actually happens. I can predict that there will in fact be a new epic 1.4 speed sword in The Eye, Hyjal, or Black Temple if baseless speculation is acceptable.
Finally, your comments on crit vs. extra hit mechanics show that you are again ignoring work done earlier in this thread and others, not to mention that this spreadsheet is concerned with PvE damage. The sword spec model used in this spreadsheet accounts for the negative possibilities. If you are really concerned about PvP, you should consider that serious arena teams tend to stack resilience, which mitigates perceived advantages to stacking crit.
In the future, please take time to read earlier parts of a thread, as well as use capitalization, punctuation, and spell check before posting in these forums.
LOL, no sry, i have been following thread since day 1 and READ EVERYTHING... I know what you talkin about and what you mean and the whole discussion about sword extra hit vs +5% crit the works. Followed everything and know all results.
I know with +skil and being human and using latros will prolly be HIGHEST PVE DPS accordinig to sheet and prolly best spec in general for PVE DPS with CD. I just stated that using Glad fist with Shiv wil give you almost similar dps without using that blue post +skill, cause those numbers are unconfirmed and looks untrue.
For interest sake +resil negates fists/sword exacty the same DPS wise ;-) Most people just find fists more reliable in PVP and thats why i would choose it above sword + latros.....
I hope for your sake you will get better 1.4 Speed swords in the future, but i seriously doubt it from past XP
04/05/07, 2:51 PM
(do you know how many hellish BF runs it took!)
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