Rogue DPS Spreadsheet - Page 43

Kalman · 02/26/07, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by Mimesis

Ok well I've trying to make sense of these + skill % numbers since i saw them earlier. I have but a theory that may already be widely known or disputed but I'm going to throw out it here anyways.

From the combat mechanics post:
Skill:
Skill affects the probability of a Miss, Parry, Dodge, Block, and Crit.

The magnitude is the same in all of these cases, henceforth known as the Skill Term, S:

S(in %) = (TargetDefense - AttackerWepSkill)/25

this would put 1 skill rating at 0.04% regardless of the level of the mob.

The way i think it might work is on some kind of scaling, where it is much more valuable while you are below the targets defense and becomes devalued once your attack skill reaches the defense skill of the target.

This would explain why against an equal level target its worth +0.04% crit (etc) but against a 73 its worth 0.20%. I would assume if this is the case you would not want to stack +skill but only get enough to reach the defense of a level 63 mob (do we know what this is btw?)

Unless you can provide some evidence of this being the behavior of +skill, please don't post bullshit you made up.

This may or may not be true, but "I think this is how it works" with no testing isn't valuable. Given that when +skill had a known hardcap on one mechanic, it didn't cap out on other mechanics (the glancing reduction capped, the bonuses did not) and given that the cap was not mob defense, there's really not even historical evidence that would point to it working the way you think it does.

The sole shred of evidence we have (unless someone's done a lot of controlled testing we haven't seen) is from Crezax's post at http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/en/166546791.htm - which definitely does not mention a cap.

Xard · 02/26/07, 5:49 PM

Someone needs to go stand in front of a mob and just auto attack for like a year with some reasonable amount of +skill (say 5 or more) so that we can really get some decent stats. I'd think just being able to see the difference in parry rates would confirm or deny what he said, though I really don't believe his numbers at all, unless skill got mega stealth buffed at some point.

Mimesis · 02/26/07, 6:30 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

This may or may not be true, but "I think this is how it works" with no testing isn't valuable.

It's a little something called brainstorming (please don't tell me brainstorming isn't valuable). Do you expect every thought in this forum to be 100% factual and backed up before someone posts it? I made it clear it was a guess and testing needed to be done. I will be trying to grab a latro's sword and testing with it and without it on lvl 70-73 mobs with and without Weapon Expertise. It will be my first time at parsing combat really and I think I will be using WowWebStats, unless someone can tell me something as good or better to use.

Edit: Anyone who can grab a hold of a healer and 10's of hours of time on the ptr would really help this testing progress.

pf · 02/26/07, 6:50 PM

Originally Posted by Mimesis

It's a little something called brainstorming (please don't tell me brainstorming isn't valuable). Do you expect every thought in this forum to be 100% factual and backed up before someone posts it? I made it clear it was a guess and testing needed to be done. I will be trying to grab a latro's sword and testing with it and without it on lvl 70-73 mobs with and without Weapon Expertise. It will be my first time at parsing combat really and I think I will be using WowWebStats, unless someone can tell me something as good or better to use.

One could easily prove or disprove a cap on the effect at +15skill or whatever, but providing solid numbers on exactly what skill does at the +1/2/3 levels through basic testing/parsing would take quite a large sample size.

feanor831 · 02/27/07, 10:01 AM

Well if the weapon skill thread kalman posted is true (beleive it is as blue confirmed), without any cap, I dont see any other rogue (race and spec) matching a Human sword rogue with latros (18.8 Weaponskill --> +-3.8% crit and +-3.8% hit), decent mainhand (vindicator and above) with a shaman in the grp with Windfury and Bloodlust. (windfury scale better with sword).

Are we back to pre rogue review that if your a human rogue, your the highest DPS rogue in the raid? Only other thing i can see that counters this is if future raid weapon( like daggers) loot has alot better itemization than swords, which was the case after review with naxx.

Can combat dagger match this atm?

Kalman · 02/27/07, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by feanor831

Well if the weapon skill thread kalman posted is true (beleive it is as blue confirmed), without any cap, I dont see any other rogue (race and spec) matching a Human sword rogue with latros (18.8 Weaponskill --> +-3.8% crit and +-3.8% hit), decent mainhand (vindicator and above) with a shaman in the grp with Windfury and Bloodlust. (windfury scale better with sword).

Are we back to pre rogue review that if your a human rogue, your the highest DPS rogue in the raid? Only other thing i can see that counters this is if future raid weapon( like daggers) loot has alot better itemization than swords, which was the case after review with naxx.

Can combat dagger match this atm?

You're confusing rating and skill; the blue post referred to skill, you're thinking of rating.

18.8 skillrating (Latro's + human) = 4.8 skill.

Kincaid · 02/27/07, 10:23 AM

Humans still have a flat +skill modifier for the racial, not a rating. It's 358 + whatever fraction.

Kalman · 02/27/07, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Kincaid

Humans still have a flat +skill modifier for the racial, not a rating. It's 358 + whatever fraction.

OK. Point stands - his numbers (3.8% crit/hit) are *way* higher than what a human sees.

Again, look at Crezax's post. Let's say you're getting 8.xxx +skill. That's worth:

+1.6% hit
-4.8% parry
+1.6% crit
-0.8% dodge

Since the parry is negligible, in practice you're looking at +1.6% crit and +2.4% hit effective (two-roll on specials makes this a little different, but close enough). I have no idea where those 3.8 numbers were coming from.

Is 1.6% crit and 2.4% hit nice? Sure. But it's not game-breaking. Should skill racials have been nerfed instead of skill? Absolutely.

Kincaid · 02/27/07, 10:38 AM

You're right, the point does stand. Apologies for looking like I was trying to dispute that. And yes, even with both a human warrior (which I just got lucky with) and a human rogue I rolled specifically for the +skill bonus, I agree that the racial should have been nerfed instead of +skill.

Kalman · 02/27/07, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Kincaid

You're right, the point does stand. Apologies for looking like I was trying to dispute that. And yes, even with both a human warrior (which I just got lucky with) and a human rogue I rolled specifically for the +skill bonus, I agree that the racial should have been nerfed instead of +skill.

Not to mention only a little more than half of those numbers are due to being human; some of it is due to the sword, which (oddly enough) anyone can use. :p

Kincaid · 02/27/07, 10:48 AM

See, I just thought the sword looked cool as my warrior's offhand and had agility, which was a nice bonus considering how bad my crit's gotten while I leveled. >.>

...okay, I saw the +skill and wanted to see how much it helped, too. Shoot me. :P

Kalman · 02/27/07, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Kincaid

See, I just thought the sword looked cool as my warrior's offhand and had agility, which was a nice bonus considering how bad my crit's gotten while I leveled. >.>

...okay, I saw the +skill and wanted to see how much it helped, too. Shoot me. :P

Mainhand a Blinkstrike with it, it's the same model. And everybody misses their Thrash Blade!

(Don't lie. You know you miss your Thrash Blade.)

pf · 02/27/07, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Kincaid

Humans still have a flat +skill modifier for the racial, not a rating. It's 358 + whatever fraction.

Does the game give +skill in fractions? I doubt it, but I have no proof.

Originally Posted by Kalman

Not to mention only a little more than half of those numbers are due to being human; some of it is due to the sword, which (oddly enough) anyone can use. :p

And removing the sword, a human gets:
+1.5% hit
+1% crit

Not game breaking, but a nice little bonus. However, once 25 mans become the norm, daggers will be superior again anyway. Also, there is no upgrade from latro's for a sword rogue, meaning he will continue losing dps on the dagger rogue whose best offhand option is 10 dps higher and 0.1 faster.

Kincaid · 02/27/07, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Mainhand a Blinkstrike with it, it's the same model. And everybody misses their Thrash Blade!

(Don't lie. You know you miss your Thrash Blade.)

Yes I miss my Thrash Blade.

I would suspect it doesn't give +skill in fractions, I'm at work and couldn't check the math on the character sheet to tell you. And yeah, Latro's forever is disappointing. The itemization changes are a big part of what pushed me to give up the rogue for my warrior.

feanor831 · 02/27/07, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Kalman

You're confusing rating and skill; the blue post referred to skill, you're thinking of rating.

18.8 skillrating (Latro's + human) = 4.8 skill.

My numbers assumed you are using weapon expertise, isn't it then +5 skill for humanl; +3.58 skill from latros; +10 skill WE?

total : 18.58 skill? (or is the +10 from WE +10 skill rating)?

Am i assuming something wrong?

Cause if it is +18.58 , my original numbers and assumptions are right? Sword > ALL?

(Correct thats it only 8.85 higher than CD) ---> Which i think your refering to :-)