pf

Envenom will probably not be used in raids with its current version. Combat potency can easily be approximated, but cannot be accurate for all cycles since not all cycles have 100% snd uptime. Im thinking shiv would be wasted energy to get to 5cp. Probably best to use a finisher at 4cp.

Either way, there are still a few bugs and other problems with the spreadsheet currently that I am working on fixing. The talents are starting to become more final, so starting work on a tbc version of the spreadsheet is not out of the question, but the assassination tree is going to be hard to model.

 

rochan

The spreadsheet is correct. Elemental sharpening stones will never be better than instant poison, especially if you have +poison talents. The only exceptions are poison immune mobs, obviously, eg. Ragnaros, Twin Emps.

Interestingly enough, poisons are also better than 100 AP vs undead stones in my experience.

Elemental & Consecrated stones are excellent for warriors, however. (Im not sure if they work for hunters?)

 

pf

+100ap offhand is usually better than poisons if you dont have poison talents.

 

Kjaska

€: deleted for it was an irrelevant question :x

 

Zoro

Shiv + IP might for a fast dagger off hand offer better Dam/Energy for that last combat point than the Mutilate if your IP > 0.5*(Mutilate MH + Added Mutilate OH). Why you'd be using a fast offhand with mutilate is another question.

As to Combat Potency, you might not have complete S&D uptime on them all, but you do know which ones don't and there's only 8 regimes at present. Computationally messy, but you could simply engineer revised energy values for the instant strikes based on the uptimes of those regimes based on average Potency procs. Then simply choose out of all possible scenarios which is the most efficient. You'd double the current number of regimes, but at least it's a quick and nasty solution.

Regarding Seal Fate, when assuming a single attack is used to generate your combo points, I fail to see what the great difficulty is. Working out the average number of strikes to achieve 5 or more combo points for a given crit rate would not appear at first glance to be that hard - unless I'm missing something?

 

wbackes

Has anybody tried to estimate the difference between a seal fate/hemo build and a hemo build inclulding deadliness? I know Seal Fate is not modeled in the spreadsheet, so I was wondering if anybody had done any testing and could save me some cash on respecs.

 

pf

Combat potency problem: Snd uptime on incomplete cycles comes from the amount of energy you have. The amount of energy you have is determined by snd uptime. See the circular reference? It wont be as easy as just plugging it in. I'll probably break out the pencil and paper to get a proper formula to use.

Seal Fate: The cycle sheet doesnt quite work in that manner. To do it that way, you would have to lower the cost of seal fate to be "energy spent towards 1 cp". Even then, you have combo points lost going from 4-5 cp some. Also, would it be better to use a 4cp evis or rupture to proc find weakness rather than use another mutilate? I'm thinking so. This complicates the cycle sheet even more as its not made to handle a cycle that is not perfectly repetitive.

 

◊ Kalman

I derived a preliminary cycle sheet that handles SF a while ago using the "energy spent towards 1 CP" assumption and assuming that you never lose CP. It also included a DPE reverse-conversion to account for the energy per CP change. Someday I'll get around to working on it again, although I'll need to do some modeling to predict the amount of "waste" you can expect (how often you'll crit on a strike at 4 CP, basically). Since even with zero waste, SF still lost to combat builds, I never got around to modeling this.

You can get a long-term estimate for SF, but the nature of the build is such that it doesn't really hold for short fights, and in the context of this meaning, short is basically every fight in the game.

 

wbackes

Yeah, that is along the lines of my assumptions, but I have nothing but gut feelings to back it up. I think I might try it just to say I tried it if for no other reason. AQR makes me finally willing to try Hemo

 

Jdizzle

It seems to me like swords are overpowered in the spreadsheet. Anybody else get this?
HW Blade + HoD = 622.69 dps
HW Claw + HoD = 611.42 dps
I thought, if anything, fist > sword. The weapon stats are all the same, so the only thing that differs is the spec.
Now, if I put in the HW offhand fist as well, the dps is even lower even though you're adding 5% crit to the offhand:
HW Right Claw + HW Left Claw = 588.32 dps
HW Blade + HW Quickblade = 614.74 dps

Any particular reason behind this or are the numbers wrong?

 

pf

The only way im getting numbers similar to what you are getting is if the rogue is a human. In this case, +5swords makes swords a better choice.

 

◊ castille

You have to remember that I believe this spreadsheet is centered around boss encounters -- at least, that was my estimation. Human sword rogues with weapon expertise just clean up in that situation.

23:40:55> [Illidan Stormrage's] [Shear] was blocked by [Castille].
^ Yes, this actually happened. Yes, Castille is a shaman.

 

Jdizzle

I just double checked and it's undead, not human.

 

pf

Check your talents and make sure you have fist spec selected. I put in the same information and get fist spec with hod offhand about 10dps > sword spec with hod offhand.

 

Jdizzle

Ok, I checked my talents and everything is good now, but the numbers still aren't adding up.

HW Claw + HoD = 602.21 dps
HW Blade + HoD = 620.42 dps

I know it's weird, but I've checked over it several times now and there shouldn't be any mistakes with the race/talents.

 

Jdizzle

Maybe it's my gear setup? http://ctprofiles.net/2288687
Try plugging those in if you like and see if you get the same outcome.

 

pf

The only thing I can possibly think of that is doing this (besides you putting in the wrong data) is that you are crit capped.

You cannot break past ~30% crit with white damage without getting any +hit. The critcap is about 30%crit + %hit. So are you stacking crit too much?

 

pf

Plugged it in, getting fist spec > sword spec every time. Double check all of your talents/buffs. If that doesnt work, I suggest re-downloading the sheet and trying again.

 

Jdizzle

I have 30% crit + 15% hit.
I guess this is just an individual case, then, since nobody else is having this problem, so I'll try to investigate it myself and I'll let you know if I figure it out. Thanks anyway for the help, I appreciate it.

 

◊ Kalman

Yep, seeing fist > sword, always, on my local copy as well.

 

Jdizzle

*PROBLEM SOLVED*

I just downloaded another copy of the spreadsheet, re-input all the data and I got different results. Now the Claw > Blade by about 6 dps.

 

Zoro

That's if you want to calculate the cycle on the fly as the user enters inputs.
Given you only run eight rotation schemes, and off hand weapon speed varies over less than twenty speeds, you could pre-calculate the different scenarios that occur.
It's a chunk of data to work out, and's not as elegant or future proofed but it's a quick and easy way.

 

pf

The only problem with that is that there are another +25% hit values +25 weapon skill values between each +hit. So you are talking about predetermining the value based on .. 8x25x25x15 or predetermining it for 75000 different values. Thanks for the try, but I am already looking in at the best way to determine it on the fly as it will be the most accurate, flexible solution.

 

◊ Kalman

I only show 8 schemes, but it's incredibly easy to add a new scheme if you want to (in fact, the old CP/Cycle sheet had very clear instructions on how to do so). Those 8 schemes seem to represent the best options across a few different builds; we probably didn't hit best schemes for something like No Relentless, 0 Ruth 0 SnD, but then, I figured that'd be an edge case we'd see never or rarely and I don't much care about anyone that dumb.

I'd prefer to avoid pre-calculation if at all possible.

 

Namu

Sorry for the newb question but, can someone explain to me what all the letters in the Optimum CP Usage cell mean. Like for me it says Cycle: 5s/4r. Thx for the help.