Melnor

Bumping this question as I am interested in it as well.

 

roq

Okay can we slow down for one second. There seem to be about 12 sheets being fixed and changed at the same exact time. Wouldn't it be better to use Bleedo, error Tracker and try to fix the changes through one source instead of everyone throwing there hands at it? I don't know, but we really need a better way to do this.

 

• Viper

Yeah, somewhere in the last 5 pages this thread departed from the old "let's make a good spreadsheet" theme to "hey look what I did with my sheet". It's more than a little confusing.

 

Zoro

Well....
Nothing says you have to download every sheet that's posted. It's fair enough to rely on the one that Bleedo posts on his site.
The recent splurge of posts has been simply several of us bouncing ideas between us, particularly over the 1s/ rotations and the issue of slack energy. I suppose we could have taken it to private messages but you miss out on others who might be interested in the discussion.

Back in the day, you would have simply turned to pf and said 'dude, sort this'. That's no longer an option, hashing it out between us is the only option. You can't rely on the bug tracker for anything more than items/sheet errors, as I recall Bleedo saying fundamental sheet changes were beyond his pervue.

Anyway, the only one who broke the chain was Koaschten - every other one posted between me and siq is a modification of the previously posted one. And Koaschten clearly stated his was a bad hack. If you want to contribute to the mechanics discussion and actively develop, seems fine to post here. If all you want is a sheet for calculating gear choice - download Bleedo's hosted one.

 

candlegarden

I couldn't track the reason why but the version posted by Siq at post 1240 has some kind of error (probably related to a change in the BS formula?) which calculates the buffed BS to be actually lower than the unbuffed one. I downloaded the one at Bleedo's site to check and it doesn't has the said error.

FYI.

 

Siq

Does this error occur in zoro's version (post 1275), too?

I personally didn't change any Backstab formulas. Also I don't have such an error with basic dagger combat equip+build.

Maybe some more information would be helpfull. (equip, talents, buffed cycle=unbuffed cycle?)

 

Graecus

If I might make a suggestion - simply note that you have made a change and people can contact you for the file. If you do make a modification, run it by whoever is currently in charge to ensure all positive / needed changes get appended to the current live file, and that is the only file linked in this thread.

At least consolidating all the new info would be a good step in it's continued progress.

Precision in Paradise

 

Zoro

1) All the new stuff is consolidated - in the latest version I posted.
2) There is no-one in charge to run it past any more.

I would have thought that anyone who had found the thread in the first place and is interested in the sheet would be able/willing to read the thread prior to simply blindly clicking the latest posted link.

Guess not.

No bother on my part not to post links any more, I'm in the middle of moving house anyway so will be offline from Fri.

 

Cel

I would think that it's decidedly the minority that dislikes your links. I certainly appreciate you trying to keep things up to date and correct.

"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell

Alpha is recruiting... go go.

 

Tinkerfizzle

A bit of a derail here, but I didn't see this as being new-thread-worthy.

During yesterday's Magtheridon raid, we had a newer second Rogue in our group, and I found his damage output to be quite interesting, as his spec was something I've been considering. I'm currently combat daggers ( http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...n=Tinkerfizzle ) and he's combat swords ( http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...uralyon&n=Pren ).

My question arises from the damage output I saw during the fight. After looking at his gear, it seemed like he was putting out quite a bit more damage with that spec and gear than what I would have, as combat daggers. After all was said and done and the fight completed, I finished with 1050-1070 dps, while he was close behind at 890 or so, during the fight's 12 minute duration. We had a Warrior and Shaman in our group, for the reference of buffs.

Would I see greater overall output as combat swords rather than daggers, considering the amount he was able to put out with less-than-top gear? Or is it more a lack of proper gear choices on my end: gems, etc?

 

Kytrarewn

Do you have WWS of the fight? With the assassination 2pc bonus, if he was abusing the whole "immune to kidney shot haste rating" thing, that could potentially have made up a fair bit of the difference.

Finally, I think you're overstating the extent of your gear difference. You have a higher DPS MH weapon to a fairly significant degree, especially if you're comparing your buffed stats to his unbuffed stats (you have 273AP added by the buffs you have on your armory profile).

Of course the 4.8% hit you have over him is very significant, and I'm too lazy to do the math on the unbuffed crit right now, but 160-180DPS difference is hardly a "negligible difference", either.

 

Cel

How much of a dps increase can Flame Caps be equated to? The fire damage proc seems like it'd be rather nice.

Has anyone ever tried Flame Caps?

"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell

Alpha is recruiting... go go.

 

• Aldriana

Well, first off, you could punch this all into the spreadsheet and answer some of these questions yourself. However, as a first crack at them (going totally by my intuition and experience, as I'm disinclined to take a shot at them with the spreadsheet...)

1) You beat him by 20%. It's very, very, hard to build up a gear differential that creates more than a 20% difference in DPS. Given your relative gear, assuming you both played optimally, I would expect to see significantly less difference than that, honestly - 5 to 10%, tops. So I think the problem you're investigating isn't really a problem.

2) You probably would benefit by swapping out all your +16 AP gems for +8 agi or +4agi/+4 hit.

3) At the moment, at high levels of buff, combat swords does tend to beat combat daggers at comperable gear level. The consumables nerf will likely reduce this effect somewhat, but I do think it's the case that swords have a slightly higher damage potential. However, again, we're not talking 20%. We're talking 5% or less.

 

• Aldriana

Well, comparing it to Instant Poison...

IP has a 20% chance to do 170 damage, or 34 damage per proc on average.

Flame Caps have "a chance" to do 40 damage. Now, I'm not sure what the chance is, but in order to do 34 damage per proc it'd need to be 85% or higher, which I'm willing to bet it's not.

So, against mobs that are affected by poison, IP (or DP) is almost certainly better.

Against poison-immune mobs, on the other hand, it might be usable.

 

Tinkerfizzle

I'll be sure to capture WWS from now on.

As for the discrepancy between our stats, I didn't think that the ~100 ap/5 hit/5 crit difference, along with (what I think to be) a less-than-optimal sword offhand would give the damage output he had during the fight. After seeing it, I'm sort of second-guessing my choice as daggers, but I suppose it'd take a few more raids(and WWS) to get a more solid idea.

 

Cel

Oh, is a flame cap a weapon buff? I was thinking of it as a short term "Fel Blossom" like effect that you just use, so it would not replace poison.

"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell

Alpha is recruiting... go go.

 

• Aldriana

Hmm... I guess I was sort of assuming it was - that was the impression I'd gotten when initially reading it, but looking it at again it doesn't seem to explicitly say that, so I don't know. I guess someone will need to test.

 

Melnor

^^ Might not be the case all the time.

When I swapped out my agi/hit gems to all 16 ap (except 2 hit gems for meta req) the sheet stated a dps gain.

So for me, 16 ap gems > the rest. But since it's totally dependant on your setup, it's best to check for yourself.

 

• Aldriana

It may not be true for everyone - hence the word, "probably". Playing with the sheet is, as always, recommended when making such decisions. However, in my experience, swapping out AP for Agi or Hit at a 2:1 ratio increases bufffed dps more often that not.

 

roq

I am finding something wierd and hoping someone can explain something to me. Here are a couple of changes i made the sheet. I am using 2 different sheets. 2.2.4a from Bleedo site, and 2.2.4d from Zoro savefile location.

On Gear_Buffs in Cell AG, i changed, .2 to .1.
On the Unbuffed DPS sheet, i changed boss level dodge from 24.6 to 25.5

I made the changes based on the findings we had from the hit discussion a few pages ago. This also allows me not to waste alot of points in hit. I also have the New Blue Post Checked since i made the changes above.

So i add the Netherblade Faskmask and everything stays the same. There are no changes, now when i add the netherblade gloves, my DPS on bleedo goes from 845.61 -> 848.60, but the DPS from Zoro goes from 845.61 -> 816.87.

So after looking at somethings for a few minutes. I noticed my CP hits per sec has changed on the two sheets. This is the point at which i get lost. So can anyone expain to me exactly what happened? Or what has changed that would cause this drastic of a change in DPS. I am doing something wrong in changing the hit ratio and boss dodge ratio? Or is there something else i am missing.

 

Trazhenko

I would agree with this sentiment, especially in light of the new consumable changes. You already have to be buffed to the gills and have a good group setup to reach the point where 8 agi > 16 AP.

All of our shaman went elemental because the gear works out better for when they want to heal, and it's flat out easier to DPS unhindered as a ranged class. They go with caster groups to drop wrath. Most of the time my group will have a druid for crit, *maybe* a warrior for shout. Occasionally I'll get totems, or a marks hunter for TSA, but not often anymore.

 

rj

I still don't see how that is possible unless you pass the hit cap. Make sure you do NOT have the "New Blue post on +skill" box checked in the talents page. That has been proven incorrect.

I have similar stats as you but with a better daggers and +agil/hit gems are definitely better. I lose 2.5DPS per gem going from the 4/4's to +16 AP.

 

• Aldriana

Well, grabbing Bleedo's version of the sheet and plugging in my current gear, with only GotW, Fort, BShout, Kings, Might, Imp Hunter's Mark, Warp Burger, and Major Agi as buffs, I show 1237.52 dps with my current setup and 1237.22 if I swap out the 5 8 agi gems for 16 AP gems instead - meaning that, dpswise, 8 agi and 16 AP are sort of a wash... so I should stick with 8 agi gems for the free 2% dodge.

Now, since it is pretty close, I can imagine gear and raid setups where 16 AP does make more sense. On the whole, though, I stand by my original statement that 8 agi > 16 AP as a general rule.

 

Melnor

I disabled that checkbox and still noticed a loss in dps per gem on the unbuffed dps portion and yes I will say that putting 4/4's in my slots upped my dps on the buffed dps portion. The first one I swapped out added roughly .3 buffed dps. Each additional one I added gave an exponentially lower amount of gain (.2, .1, .8, .6 etc). Changing out 9 gems to 4/4's netted roughly 3 dps total (buffed) and about 8 dps lost (unbuffed). You losing 2.5 dps per gem strikes me as odd seeing as how when I go from no gem to any gem is still less than 2.5 dps per gem (unbuffed).


Since my group composition and potion consumption for each raid is always totally different (Hi2u wrath of air and moonkin groups!), I tend to only look at my unbuffed dps deltas. It gives me a good baseline at which to determine the overall effectiveness of items. I just consider the raid buffed portion the icing on the cake but never spec to make the icing taste better. I'll always focus on my unbuffed dps first and not the what if i had x potion and y food and this class and that class in my group. But that's just me.

 

• Aldriana

That's fair. Personally, I tend to optomize around highly buffed situations, since it seems to me that the fights where it's most important to have totally optimal dps are the ones where there's a dps timer you're working to beat, and on these fights you're most likely going to have the raid organized to maximize dps as well, which implies a reasonable level of buff.

Unbuffed, I certainly agree that 16 AP > 8 agi. However, any fight you're doing totally unbuffed is a fight where dps isn't a huge issue, in which case it only matters for bragging rights.