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03/14/07, 8:45 AM
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#766
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Glass Joe
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Does anyone know if it is safe to assume all boss mobs in TBC have 50% glancing chance, rather than the 40% we expected to have? I'm reasonably certain from my guild's Wow Web Stats of Gruul and Doom Lord Kazzak that they have 50% glance, but have not yet been able to parse data on any other 25 man bosses.
If so make sure to change the Glancing % value on the unbuffed and buffed dps sheets. It makes about 10dps difference to me, equivilent to a significant gear change.
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03/14/07, 10:51 AM
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#767
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Bald Bull
Night Elf Rogue
Wrathbringer (EU)
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WWS did calculate the % of glancing blows from all attacks that actually landed on the target instead of all attacks performed, including misses, dodges and parries, thus resulting in a higher percentage.
I don't know though if that has changed meanwhile.
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03/14/07, 3:22 PM
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#768
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Piston Honda
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11/21/29 was discussed pretty heavily in another thread called How I Learned To Love Imp Sap or something like that, basically a discussion of all specs you can hit to get 7+ points into Sub. You can find some good information there. Briefly I'll mention (since this is the wrong thread to do it in) that a big portion of the Kz trash (Moroes adds etc etc) are vulnerable to Blind, so a 1.5-minute makes my Priests much safer on Shackle breaks. I use MoD/Camou to peek around corners and assign targets. Sleight of Hand is nice when I don't have a Paladin and for the Resilience for my arena team, Initiative is always awesome for PvE and PvP, Serrated Blades is a straight DPS talent, Ghostly is good burst and (I think?) better DPE/DPS than Hemo. Heightened Senses is great for PvP and good for situational PvE (taking cleaves, Assassins, etc). Prep is awesome, 3m30 Evasion and Sprint with Prep in the same build means those cooldowns are *always* up. 1/2 Dirty Deeds is a nod towards my PvP and helps my 5-man energy efficiency. 4/5 Deadliness is straight DPS.
I fail to see what portion of the Sub tree outlined above you could say "isn't really useful in a 5man or raid." To give you an idea of the flexibility of the build, I kited Moroes' Prot Warrior yesterday while the rest of the DPS burned down the first add. Lots of specs could do it, none of those specs have the same tools at my disposal for kiting/OTing/surviving AND strong DPS AND good scalability to boot. I heartily suggest it.
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03/14/07, 4:00 PM
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#769
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Bluefish
I fail to see what portion of the Sub tree outlined above you could say "isn't really useful in a 5man or raid." To give you an idea of the flexibility of the build, I kited Moroes' Prot Warrior yesterday while the rest of the DPS burned down the first add. Lots of specs could do it, none of those specs have the same tools at my disposal for kiting/OTing/surviving AND strong DPS AND good scalability to boot. I heartily suggest it.
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Wouldn't you be contributing more on that fight by doing lots of DPS on the first Moroes add that's targeted for death than kiting around a target that could be shackled or offtanked? Cripple kiting is nice and all but you don't need to be deep in the Sub tree to pull that off. There's always a tradeoff to be made between utility/niceties and DPS but from my limited time in Gruul's Lair it looks like most of that utility won't be applicable post-Karazhan. 5 mans are a different story, but I was focusing on mostly the dodge-based aspect of Sub and thinking that I usually don't like being the target of an enemy mob.
Last edited by Triton : 03/14/07 at 9:00 PM.
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03/14/07, 11:36 PM
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#770
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Kalman
Does he remember to use Slice and Dice on the wild game? :p
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Always and forever!
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03/15/07, 8:47 AM
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#771
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Piston Honda
Murloc Rogue
Aggramar (EU)
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Originally Posted by Triton
Wouldn't you be contributing more on that fight by doing lots of DPS on the first Moroes add that's targeted for death than kiting around a target that could be shackled or offtanked? Cripple kiting is nice and all but you don't need to be deep in the Sub tree to pull that off. There's always a tradeoff to be made between utility/niceties and DPS but from my limited time in Gruul's Lair it looks like most of that utility won't be applicable post-Karazhan. 5 mans are a different story, but I was focusing on mostly the dodge-based aspect of Sub and thinking that I usually don't like being the target of an enemy mob.
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I switched away from 11/21/29 when I picked up a Latros. To put it inot context - that was the run before I pinged Exalted with CoT. Stupid luck.
Anyway, it meant I had a fair shake of the whip at 70 running Kara/Heroics with it. It was very good in Heroics I found, the lack of class diversity meant there were more 'ah crap' moments caused by capability gaps and the subtlety tree gives good tools to manage them. I did the OT at Moreos thing. I tanked the first mob to be killed whilst the MT handled the second. Hemo produced enough dps that I kept the aggro - and meant that overall I felt competitive in dps (only an Elemental Shaman in my regular Kara group was beating me - now we're equal).
But...
Switching to Combat swords wasn't just 'a slight' dps gain - it was a considerable one. Very noticeable. I wouldn't have done it without Latros - show's how nuts that sword is. Yes, I've lost overall utility - but I don't feel I've lost capability so much as duration/frequency. I've still OTed at Moreos. I couldn't help but feel the 5->10->25 progression naturally diminshes the importance of the Subtlety tree utility whilst combat damage remains just as valid.
The final nail in the coffin for me was the realisation that I was never, ever in TBC going to get a decent Hemo speed weapon to counterbalance the stupidly good efficiency gains of fast of hands. Until I see a 2.8/2.9 - Combat swords it is.
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03/15/07, 11:49 AM
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#772
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Zoro
Switching to Combat swords wasn't just 'a slight' dps gain - it was a considerable one. Very noticeable. I wouldn't have done it without Latros - show's how nuts that sword is. Yes, I've lost overall utility - but I don't feel I've lost capability so much as duration/frequency. I've still OTed at Moreos. I couldn't help but feel the 5->10->25 progression naturally diminshes the importance of the Subtlety tree utility whilst combat damage remains just as valid.
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Thanks for the input, that confirms my suspicions as well as the numbers I ran on the DPS spreadsheet about CS (esp. with Latro's) vs. a Hemo build, and diminishing Sub utility when progressing from 5 -> 10 -> 25 instances.
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03/15/07, 12:24 PM
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#773
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Rogue
Bloodhoof
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CB Evisc vs CB Mutilate
I am sorry if this has been answered in earlier posts. Already tried the search option with no luck.
Has anyone done the math on CB Evisc vs CB Mutilate in raids with a 41/20/0-spec with Imp Evisc?
I have almost always used my Cold Blood on 5cp Eviscerates until now, but to be honest I'm not really sure which one does more DPS.
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03/15/07, 2:31 PM
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#774
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Zito
I am sorry if this has been answered in earlier posts. Already tried the search option with no luck.
Has anyone done the math on CB Evisc vs CB Mutilate in raids with a 41/20/0-spec with Imp Evisc?
I have almost always used my Cold Blood on 5cp Eviscerates until now, but to be honest I'm not really sure which one does more DPS.
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Should be easy to figure out whether 2*non-crit Evis > 2.3*non-crit Mutilate, but that doesn't account for the guaranteed third combo point when you CB-Mutilate. I think I've read people claim the answer is Mutilate, but haven't done the math myself.
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03/15/07, 2:49 PM
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#775
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Ahiru
Should be easy to figure out whether 2*non-crit Evis > 2.3*non-crit Mutilate, but that doesn't account for the guaranteed third combo point when you CB-Mutilate. I think I've read people claim the answer is Mutilate, but haven't done the math myself.
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The best time to CB mutilate is after a ruthless proc so that you can use a 4cp evis and short circuit your cycle getting an extra evis off in between snd refreshes.
Anyway, i've been struggling with the TNB proc the last few days in the short time ive worked on it. If anyone with more recent probability knowledge than mine (been almost 3 years since my last course in it) could help, it would be nice.
The part I'm having troubling modeling is the following:
What is the expected amount of time before a TNB proc wears off assuming it starts with 10 seconds up (ie just procced), given a P proc % and a variable X amount of hits(landed hits) in a 10 second span.
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03/15/07, 3:42 PM
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#776
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Von Kaiser
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Why do you need to know how long a given instance of the buff will last? Can't you just model the percent of time the proc is active by 1 - (1-P)^X?
Also, since you brought up short-circuiting a Mutilate cycle with Ruthlessness, let me ask about the 4-piece Netherblade bonus (15% for a combo point after finishers). I doubt anyone has four pieces yet, but I wonder if it's possible to proc both that and Ruthlessness, so there would be a small chance to short-circuit to a five-point finisher after one Mutilate, in addition to the slightly higher chance to short-circuit to a four-point finisher. Think that would have much effect on overall DPS for Mut builds?
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03/15/07, 4:35 PM
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#777
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Ahiru
Why do you need to know how long a given instance of the buff will last? Can't you just model the percent of time the proc is active by 1 - (1-P)^X?
Also, since you brought up short-circuiting a Mutilate cycle with Ruthlessness, let me ask about the 4-piece Netherblade bonus (15% for a combo point after finishers). I doubt anyone has four pieces yet, but I wonder if it's possible to proc both that and Ruthlessness, so there would be a small chance to short-circuit to a five-point finisher after one Mutilate, in addition to the slightly higher chance to short-circuit to a four-point finisher. Think that would have much effect on overall DPS for Mut builds?
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Since TNB is a stacking buff, one cannot use that formula since it would only give % of time the buff is up instead of average amount of armor reduced by the buff. I was trying a stochastic process (i think thats the right word to describe how I am attempting it) to model the proc and the expected amont of time the 3-procced buff stays up is not coming to me through memory. The only way I can think to do it would be do it discreetly, but since hits per second is variable, that method does not seem to be optimal.
Anyway, the 4p NB bonus is modelled into the sheet assuming both can proc independently for mutilate. Just enable the buff by forcing the buffbox to be true to see how much dps you can expect to gain from it, then just hit undo so that you don't ruin your sheet.
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03/15/07, 5:05 PM
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#778
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Glass Joe
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PF/Kalman, have you done any analysis on the effect of resilience in comparing weapon specs? I know that traditionally combat fists will outdps combat swords by a small margin given equal itemization, but it'd appear that the reduction of crit damage from resilience (for example, at 197 resilience, you have a reduced chance to crit by 5%, and reduced crit damage done by 10%) would hurt fists much harder. Have you looked into a possible breakpoint where, at a given level of resilience, combat swords passes fists?
If you'd like to take it a step further, given that I am not a human and my only useful offhand is a Latro's, could you recommend the best weapon purchase (Glad fist or sword) for maxing PVP DPS? Keep in mind that I am referring to situations where I am attacking enemies with a significant amount of resilience (80+ at the low end). Odd question, I know. =p
Last edited by Jagmohan : 03/15/07 at 5:10 PM.
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03/15/07, 5:39 PM
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#779
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Bald Bull
Night Elf Rogue
Wrathbringer (EU)
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I don't think one can model anything at all for pvp.
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03/15/07, 5:58 PM
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#780
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Glass Joe
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Isn't the purpose of this spreadsheet for sustained DPS with a relatively high time on target? Which is almost everything that PvP isn't....
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