So I am trying to figure out a way to test if under the new Sword Spec changes the proc uses the hand that proc'd it. The most reasonable method I can think of is to use a very pathetic offhand (like a vendor bought level 3 grey) and an epic mainhand, then go whack on a Blasted Lands Servant. If you start seeing Sword Spec hits that are way, way lower than the rest, you've confirmed that offhand procs use your offhand.
5/8 01:30:21.656 You hit Servant of Grol for 469.
5/8 01:30:22.046 Your Instant Poison VII hits Servant of Grol for 186 Nature damage.
5/8 01:30:22.875 You hit Servant of Grol for 118.
5/8 01:30:22.875 Coup de Grace fades from you.
5/8 01:30:22.875 Your Sword Specialization hits Servant of Grol for 432.
5/8 01:30:22.875 Your Wound Poison hits Servant of Grol for 65 Nature damage.
5/8 01:30:23.546 You gain Coup de Grace.
5/8 01:30:23.609 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency.
5/8 01:30:23.609 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency.
Out of 133 sword spec hits (crits included), the lowest was 374, which is considerably higher than the offhand damage range.
With the undergoing upgrade, asuming it's in its 2/3 phase, and atleast for me, extermely noticable meele gear buffs, with feral items getting switched to obvious dps gear, and overall ingame overhaul done to all classes, to somewhat reflect the alchemy nerf, instead of bigger % wise boss nerfs, am i being way off by saying PvP is going to be more affected then intended? Raid items being far superior to any PvP accesible and craftable items, making Arenas for example the easiest to those that don't 'need' them the most? I accepted PvP at the moment, and took it was well balanced, the guy that worked his ass off for 2k rating kicks my ass because my 1700ap and 7k hp gets me instakilled and cc'ed to death, but now, i'll be back with t5, unsingnificantly less hp and be WAY over him on my dps. Weird. Not to forget, yes, i know skill and PvP experience will get me killed quite more often even then, but i took that out of consideration.
Edit: To reflect what Aldriana wrote, i fixed the problem with ease, just posted here prematurely, too tired atm.
Last edited by Fifty : 05/08/07 at 7:31 PM.
Howmuch wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood?
The column is too narrow to display 4 digits, a decimal point, and 2 decimal places. If you make the column wider, or edit the cell settings to display fewer decimal places, it works just fine.
With the undergoing upgrade, asuming it's in its 2/3 phase, and atleast for me, extermely noticable meele gear buffs, with feral items getting switched to obvious dps gear, and overall ingame overhaul done to all classes, to somewhat reflect the alchemy nerf, instead of bigger % wise boss nerfs, am i being way off by saying PvP is going to be more affected then intended? Raid items being far superior to any PvP accesible and craftable items, making Arenas for example the easiest to those that don't 'need' them the most? I accepted PvP at the moment, and took it was well balanced, the guy that worked his ass off for 2k rating kicks my ass because my 1700ap and 7k hp gets me instakilled and cc'ed to death, but now, i'll be back with t5, unsingnificantly less hp and be WAY over him on my dps. Weird. Not to forget, yes, i know skill and PvP experience will get me killed quite more often even then, but i took that out of consideration.
Edit: To reflect what Aldriana wrote, i fixed the problem with ease, just posted here prematurely, too tired atm.
Who says Arena sets aren't going to be upgraded? Also, by the time T5 is truly common, we could have the second tier of Gladiator gear.
So how does Romeo's Poison Vial rank among the trinkets now? Would it be better than the Icon or worst off?
I tested it on the blasted lands mobs for a series of tests, keeping up slice and dice always and sometimes I saw it around 3ppm and others 2ppm, but on average over 45 minutes of testing I saw the PPM at 2.4
I'm not at my WoW computer atm, but later on I will post the screenshot.
Should I be worried that my ingame real DPS is nowhere near my projected DPS on the spreadsheet?
Yesterday my guild took on Morogrim, and for the first time I wasn't Watery Graved even once. That means I spent the whole encounter stuck on his ass like some kind of demented wart with daggers. :P
Alright, so fully raid buffed and doped up on flasks, various elixirs and food of dubious origin, my DPS should come out to around... 1728.81.
My actual DPS for the fight was just over 1200 sustained. Now that's not bad if I do say so myself, but the huge gap between my real DPS and what the spreadsheet says I should be doing - over 500 DPS - is mildly disturbing. Makes me wonder if there's something I'm missing and that makes me a sad rogue.
I'm combat daggers at the moment, but I noticed the discrepancy even when I was swords. I keep SnD up, pop trinkets and such as soon as the tank has enough aggro, but there's still the huge gap between what I'm doing and what the sheet says I'm doing, which only gets wider when raid buffs and elixirs start coming into play.
Is there some sort of Big Rogue Secret I'm missing out on? *sadface*
Well, I'd say that theoretical DPS output from the spreadsheet assumes NO error-margin whatsoever when it comes to timing of cycles & finishers - I would think that even latency sometimes plays a part in making you "lose out" some of that DPS.
In addition, TBC introduced higher armor-reduction of attacks even when bosses are sundered - that would probably be your highest reducing factor right there. (Boss' armor giving him 20 % reduction instead of 10 % total pre-TBC, just as an example).
Other then that - I can't check the spreadsheet at the moment (at work), but I can't remember how much it factors in glancing blows at the moment, which also would reduce your output by a noticeable margin.
My build at the moment has only a 20 DPS difference between my current cycle (3s/5s/5r) and a flat 5s. So maybe it's the armor? Last time I checked, the spreadsheet had armor values listed as less than 10% damage mitigation (wielding TNB) and I know it's not anywhere near that low.
Glancing blows, as far as I know, are modeled accurately on the sheet.
Windfury is currently not working for me on the spreadsheet. When I have DP MH and IP OH I show 821 total dps. When I switch the DP MH to Windfury I drop to 756 dps and the Proc DPS column on the Gear/Buffs page is 0. I'm combat swords btw.
From what I read earlier the best dps should be Windfury MH and DP OH for my situation, but I get a severe drop on the spreadsheet from going this way.
You're interpreting the formulae the way I am, too. The point of the way it was modeled looks to be normalizing the effects of ComPot, Ruthlessness and Relentless procs. The damage generated by a 1cp SnD is scaled down in proportion which to me implies that the right thing to do is to abandon the remaining time on your SnD and focus on getting your 5CP's to refresh Rupture when its ready.
You're talking about a "what if" string of bad luck which is sure to happen. Over the long haul, though, the formulae support abandoning remaining time on SnD as a general rule with the 1s/5r cut. The scenario of waiting out the SnD timer every time is modeled above on the 1s/5r line and the math shows it isn't the optimal solution.
Truth be told, they're so damned close that it's really pot-AY-to / pot-AH-to, but I was simply pointing out what the 1s/5r cut meant.
It may well be that that's the strategy the spreadsheet is modeling with the cut cycles, but by no means is it the most effective method of DPSing when actually putting such a cycle into practice. Step away from the spreadsheet for a moment and tell me how wasting SnD time for no reason can improve DPS. The answer is that it can't. Your Rupture uptime won't change, because the time at which you refresh SnD has nothing to do with the time at which your total energy gained, whether you waited on SnD and saved some of it in the energy bar or refreshed SnD immediately and spent it as soon as it came in, exceeds the cost of building 5CP and using Rupture. The only DPS method that would actually delay Rupture within, say, a 1s/5r cycle involves allowing energy ticks or procs to be truncated because your energy bar is full already.
The cut cycles on the spreadsheet give superior DPS to the regular ones because the regular cycles assume that you're always allowing SnD to last full duration while wasting CP by spending surplus energy on further attacks with enough CP already built. That's not the optimal solution to surplus energy, but neither is immediately refreshing SnD as soon as you have the combo point(s) like you suggested. The best approach is to avoid wasting any energy or CP while still stretching every SnD as long as possible to smooth out the spikiness in energy regeneration caused by Relentless Strikes and Combat Potency.
Windfury is currently not working for me on the spreadsheet. When I have DP MH and IP OH I show 821 total dps. When I switch the DP MH to Windfury I drop to 756 dps and the Proc DPS column on the Gear/Buffs page is 0. I'm combat swords btw.
From what I read earlier the best dps should be Windfury MH and DP OH for my situation, but I get a severe drop on the spreadsheet from going this way.
From the numbers your talking about, I'm going to go ahead and assume that you are looking at your Unbuffed DPS.
Windfury will only affect your Buffed DPS.
It seems that the best offhand if you want to go fist spec, is still the new searing sunblade (due to the speed) - but it really pains me to lose 5% crit on my offhand, so i was considering a spec somewhat like this :
'Woahhh there' i hear you say. But the only things i'm really giving up are 2 points in improved poison talents (which i've never had and done fine without), and 1 in weapon expertise (which afaik, no one is entirely sure about). Hell, i could even take 1 out of ruthlessness (which combat daggers manages fine without) and slap it back in weapon exp.
Yes i have got the spreadsheet, i just wanted to get some opinions as i've never seen it mentioned.
Cheers.
p.s. Yes no imp.kick sucks, but pve damage and all that, blah blah.
edit : um yeah, i meant ruthless. ofc i always have relentless.
Last edited by winst : 05/09/07 at 9:04 AM.
Reason: brain fart
Look at how much your offhand white DPS is overall, and then you'll realize it's pretty pointless to waste 5 talent points for 5 crit for your offhand. You're better off putting 1 of that into 2/2 weapon expertise, and the rest in murder or poison talents.
If your OH does roughly 250DPS (buffed), adding 5 crit to it will add maybe 5-6% of your OH DPS, or a bit under 15DPS. That's 15DPS for 5 talent points. If you do 1300DPS (buffed), one point in murder is 13DPS. These are rough numbers out of my spreadsheet.
So, one point for 13DPS or 5 points for 15.
Also, you should always have relentless, it's the best DPS per talent point in the rogue trees, except maybe AR. Actually, AR gives you 160 energy if used properly. As long you use 7 5pt finishers with relentless procs in 5 minutes, it's better. Even if you're combat daggers (spec with the least amount of finishers), you'll generate more than AR with relentless.
Windfury is currently not working for me on the spreadsheet. When I have DP MH and IP OH I show 821 total dps. When I switch the DP MH to Windfury I drop to 756 dps and the Proc DPS column on the Gear/Buffs page is 0. I'm combat swords btw.
From what I read earlier the best dps should be Windfury MH and DP OH for my situation, but I get a severe drop on the spreadsheet from going this way.
Strangely enough, Anesthetic Poison may be the best dps. It has an unusually high proc rate, 35-40%, which is ~2x what it's tooltip states. Another rogue in my guild did some testing and parsed her log with WWS, coming up with a 35% proc rate over a Steam Vaults run, though given there are some poison immune targets in there, I can guess that 40% is more accurate. I know she reads these forums from time to time... maybe she'll be able to post the parse. :]
This is completely without improved poison talents, so talents would kick it to 50%, which is an average 76.5 (not including vile poisons) damage per swing added. That is amazing damage.
Last edited by Cel : 05/09/07 at 9:21 AM.
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell
It may well be that that's the strategy the spreadsheet is modeling with the cut cycles, but by no means is it the most effective method of DPSing when actually putting such a cycle into practice. Step away from the spreadsheet for a moment and tell me how wasting SnD time for no reason can improve DPS. The answer is that it can't.
When the time lost on S&D produces less damage than rupture's ticking for the same amount of time - provided you don't overlap rupture times or run negative energy.
Taking the 2pc NB case, 1 point S&D with 3/3 Imp S&D last 17.6s. 5 point rupture lasts 16.
Hence it makes sense to drop a 5 point rupture at 16s rather than 17.6 if 1.6s of rupture produces more damage than 1.6s of S&D.
Your Rupture uptime won't change, because the time at which you refresh SnD has nothing to do with the time at which your total energy gained, whether you waited on SnD and saved some of it in the energy bar or refreshed SnD immediately and spent it as soon as it came in, exceeds the cost of building 5CP and using Rupture. The only DPS method that would actually delay Rupture within, say, a 1s/5r cycle involves allowing energy ticks or procs to be truncated because your energy bar is full already.
Clearly your rupture up time will change. Running back to back 16s ruptures produces 100% rupture uptime. Running 16s ruptures every 17.6s produces 90.9% uptime.
I recently acquired a Helm of Assassination giving me 2 pieces of the set and qualifying me for the 2 piece set bonus which is a haste proc on CS/KS. However it drops my DPS by about 3.5 and HPs by 50 over my usual Stealther's Helm (this is with all the right kinds of gems in).
I'm wondering whether the Haste effect you get from the 2 pieces offsets the 3.5 DPS loss in situations where you normally do open with CS and possibly follow with a KS (certainly with Mut builds this must be quite a lot and even for a combat build like my own this is regularly what i'll do in Heroics to prevent damage to the MT).
However the spreadsheet does not seem to take the haste bonus of the 2 pieces into account to my knowledge............is there any way it can or a way to calculate the DPS increase assuming CS/KS are used?
Well for a start the spreadsheet doesn't handle openers at all. It assumes you're into the steady state, so you wont get the proc of CS modelled in the sheet.
As to KB, I can guarantee you that S&D/Rupture/Evic will deal more damage in just about every circumstance I can think of. The only time I'm not dead certain of that is in cycles with energy left over and tossing 25 energy for 6s haste off a finisher might be worth it.
More to the point, the vast majority of mobs for which the spreadsheet is designed are immune to KB.
2 piece assas is a very nice bonus for grinding, and naturally the shorter the fight the better it becomes - which is entirely at cross purposes to the spreadsheet which is more accurate the longer the fight becomes.
For those that fancy their odds versus rupture immune mobs, I've added Xs/5e cut cycles to the 2.2.4f version and it's downloadable from...
I don't mean to be pedantic, but it's kind of disturbing to see completely incorrect assertions otherwise getting a pass in this thread, so I'm going to continue debating the point.
Originally Posted by Zoro
When the time lost on S&D produces less damage than rupture's ticking for the same amount of time - provided you don't overlap rupture times or run negative energy.
Taking the 2pc NB case, 1 point S&D with 3/3 Imp S&D last 17.6s. 5 point rupture lasts 16.
Hence it makes sense to drop a 5 point rupture at 16s rather than 17.6 if 1.6s of rupture produces more damage than 1.6s of S&D.
Once again, these aren't mutually exclusive. The time at which you begin your next 5CP Rupture is independent of the time you refresh SnD assuming that no energy overflows the bar. There is no tradeoff between Rupture time and SnD time in a cycle with surplus energy like 1s/5r.
Clearly your rupture up time will change. Running back to back 16s ruptures produces 100% rupture uptime. Running 16s ruptures every 17.6s produces 90.9% uptime.
Clearly, you don't understand how energy works. Those numbers are meaningless.
I don't mean to be pedantic, but it's kind of disturbing to see completely incorrect assertions otherwise getting a pass in this thread, so I'm going to continue debating the point.
Once again, these aren't mutually exclusive. The time at which you begin your next 5CP Rupture is independent of the time you refresh SnD assuming that no energy overflows the bar. There is no tradeoff between Rupture time and SnD time in a cycle with surplus energy like 1s/5r.
Clearly, you don't understand how energy works. Those numbers are meaningless.
You cannot run back to back ruptures and back to back S&D at the same time without eating into S&D. The only way you make your 5CP rupture independant of your S&D timing is if you could specify 'only use one combo point for this S&D'.
But you can't do that, so after four cycles from a simultaneous start your next 'perfect' independant S&D refresh has to occur at a point when you have two combo points not one. I'm aware you can't get that start, but the point stands that 1.6s asynchronity is eventually going to force your hand into either sacrificing one of the uptimes or duplicating them.
Clearly you like to make rather grand assumptions. Also, clearly a hunter weapon.
I understand how energy works fine thanks, if you try and run your S&D and Rupture uptimes seperately, at some point you're going to hit that disjuncture and lose Rupture uptime. Wont be every cycle, but it'll catch up with you in the end.
Zoro is right, but I wouldn't completely discount the practice Poke recommended in his initial post.
In a perfect world, there is no difference in DPS between the practices both of you describe. The key here is that Poke will stop waiting if his energy bar is full. At that point, his practice becomes Zoro's practice until he has an unlucky run of (no) procs.
Should Poke ever reach the point where his SnD refresh time is straying too far from his rupture refresh time, he will find himself with a full energy bar, and at that point in time, like a good rogue, he will stop waiting and refresh anyway to avoid wasting energy. At this point in time, assuming energy generation is sufficient to maintain the cycle, the uptime on both rupture and SnD will be 100%, and they will be refreshed at 16s intervals.
I said it earlier. Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to. There is so little difference between a 1s/5r and a 1s/5r cut. Just over the long-haul, the 1s/5r cut should prevail.
I can confirm that I maintain a 1s/5r cut with very little difficulty. The tight cycles that 2/5 NB offers non-dagger rogues is truly glorious, given how often we're screwed with on positioning in TBC boss fights. I broke 5/5 WW to play with the 2/5 NB and it's pretty clearly the right choice for me (combat maces (I know, I know)).
Sorry if this question has been answered before. But anyways I was reading through here and someone said that the Icon of Unyielding Courage is not modeled properly in the spreadsheet? Currently if I swap out my Abacus for it I lose ~6dps. I was wondering whether or not this is actually the case?
05/08/07, 6:20 PM
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