Rogue DPS Spreadsheet - Page 61

Safid · 05/10/07, 12:02 PM

Has anyone tested The Night Blade on the PTR to determine if it's value for total DPS is still as high as the spreadsheet indicates?

◊ Lrigatonmai · 05/10/07, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by laforce

Why do the attacks all have different delay between each other.. and at 11.32.41.640 I had 2 attacks at the same time.. wtf.. is this lag factor or somethin?

More than likely. What is your normal FPS/Ping?

sp00n · 05/10/07, 12:22 PM

Must be some really weird lag then.

Time between attacks (ms)
922
641
1468
313
1531
0
1781
1407

Gogge · 05/10/07, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

On a related note: does anyone know what a typical armor value for a raid boss is? I tossed in a very rough estimate for my calculations, but I'm wondering if anyone has more precise values.

I've tried TargetArmor for a while and it shows, effective:

Attumen: 8312
Midnight: 7531
Moroes: 7112
Maiden: 6065
Crone: 6255 (for reference as I have a kick in a combatlog)
Julianne: 6198
Romulo: 7165
Curator: -
Aran: 2643
Netherspite: 2961
Malchezaar: 7100
Nightbane: 7439
Illhoof: 5344

We have some ferals tanking in Karazhan from time to time, so some numbers might be off depending on if the warrior was sundering or tanking something else.

Maulgar: 6490
Blindeye: 5730
Gruul: 6283

Magtheridon: 6123
Channeler: 6169

Hydross: 6987
Lurker: 6758 (base 7685 according to hunter beast stats that koaschten posted, link)

Going through some old combat logs and checking kicks (112-113 damage on 0 armor lvl 70 player, w/ Murder) I get:

The Crone: 5569 (74)
Julianne: 3994 - 6017 (72-82)
Aran: 914-1025 (103-104)
Blindeye: 3647-5143 (76-84)

If I remember I'll try and do some kicking on non-caster bosses as they generally have more armor. The TargetArmor numbers are probably slightly higher than the real values as it probably can't differentiate between MH/OH attacks (and doesn't check for buffs/debuffs), with a fast OH and the 75% OH penalty it's probably a fair amount, guessing ~1000 if compared to the lurker/aran stats but that might be due to bad Sunder uptime as both encounters are fairly mobile. I don't know if Murder is added to the paperdoll either so that might throw the numbers off a bit too.

Going Teromoth hunting (lvl 63, hunter stats showing 4708 base):
Kick: 4737 (78 damage per kick)
Targetarmor: 4831 (DW, mixed white/yellow, ranged from 4600-4900 but averaged around 4800 after some kills)

Keydar · 05/10/07, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by laforce

Why do the attacks all have different delay between each other.. and at 11.32.41.640 I had 2 attacks at the same time.. wtf.. is this lag factor or somethin?

Did you replace your MH with anything? Because if you were punching, barehanded speed is 2.0 I believe.

Wodahs · 05/10/07, 1:14 PM

Originally Posted by Lace

As someone one page back just mentioned this spreadsheet seems off for its intended purpose: single-target sustained DPS fights (mid-cycle).

I've been a faithful user of this spreadsheet since the start of Naxx and on Patchwerk it accurately modeled my sustained DPS within 10-20 DPS.

But now I'm sad to say that it seems there is something glaringly wrong:

Last night when fighting Morogrim I got water-tombed once during the fight and my sustained DPS by the end of the fight was 1014. I had battleshout, healing shammy with enhanced totems and a hunter aura; per the spreadsheet my DPS should have been 1400. I know I lost a bit of DPS due to the water tomb but I was watching my current DPS via SWstats the whole time, even while tombed and it slowly ticked down (because it was near the end of the fight) it didn't drop from 1400 to 1014 in the that time ; ).

Now you can blame it on poor cycles if you want to, but I've been playing a rogue since release and studied cycles and DPS like a science like most of you; I know my cycles and how to maximize DPS.

Now you could also say that it's just Morogrim's armor, but I mean seriously, has any rogue hit 1300 or 1400 DPS on *any* raid boss in TBC? Your best chances for that are Hydross with the adds, bladefury and good trinket usage but the 1350 DPS performance posted earlier on these forums on Hydross was shown to be faulty data with the actual closer to 1050.

I don't want to come here and just complain, I'll gladly jump in and help collect the data to fill the holes, I'm just not sure what needs to be done. I can't help but think that the error lies in the glancing blows and/or armor levels of the raid mobs. I'm thinking somewhere in the neighbourhood of 65%-70% reduction via armor instead of 85%.

The one morogrim fight I had with no tombs, I hit 1389 dps for the 9 minute fight, so its definitely doable.

mih · 05/10/07, 3:19 PM

http://www.savefile.com/files/710887
2.2.4i BETA
Added -armor value. Now its easier to add items with -armor

Plz check all items with armor penetration. Don't found any bugs

rj · 05/10/07, 3:43 PM

Are Thundering Skyfire Diamond and Relentless Earthstorm Diamond modeled correctly in your versions mih?

Orinas · 05/10/07, 3:50 PM

On the question of whether or not the blue post on weapon skills was correct, I recently discovered that your fishing skill IS your fishing weapon skill (I equipped the quest reward from Shat. and found that my weapon skill was 395, and then added a +75 lure and it became 470). Assuming the fishing skill acts as the weapon skill for a fishing rod, one could test the miss/dodge/parry rate against a level 70 mob (or a boss mob) and see weapon skills work. With such big weapon skill difference (350 to 470), it'll probably be easier to see, and get better results that aren't reliant on maybe 10 weapon skill difference, where luck might play a factor in a small sample. I'll try to run some tests later today if I can get a healer, but I don't have a lot of time right now.

mih · 05/10/07, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by rj

Are Thundering Skyfire Diamond and Relentless Earthstorm Diamond modeled correctly in your versions mih?

no.
don't know how to add 3% crit dam :/
and don't know procrate of thundering skyfire diamond

• Wodin · 05/10/07, 4:42 PM

The simplest way to add 3% crit damage would probably be to have it tweak the variable that controls Lethality by the appropriate amount.

Trazhenko · 05/10/07, 4:53 PM

Originally Posted by Orinas

On the question of whether or not the blue post on weapon skills was correct, I recently discovered that your fishing skill IS your fishing weapon skill (I equipped the quest reward from Shat. and found that my weapon skill was 395, and then added a +75 lure and it became 470). Assuming the fishing skill acts as the weapon skill for a fishing rod, one could test the miss/dodge/parry rate against a level 70 mob (or a boss mob) and see weapon skills work. With such big weapon skill difference (350 to 470), it'll probably be easier to see, and get better results that aren't reliant on maybe 10 weapon skill difference, where luck might play a factor in a small sample. I'll try to run some tests later today if I can get a healer, but I don't have a lot of time right now.

Good call. I've known about the fishing skill=weapon skill thing for a while ("I'll duel you with my fishing pole, 1 sec while I add 4 crit"), but it never occurred to me to use it for any kind of testing.

• Aldriana · 05/10/07, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by Wodin

The simplest way to add 3% crit damage would probably be to have it tweak the variable that controls Lethality by the appropriate amount.

That wouldn't quite work, as Lethality only affects yellow crits, while Relentless Earthstorm Diamon would appear to be all crits.

laforce · 05/10/07, 6:00 PM

I didnt have anything on my MH... and my lag at that time was around 250ms.. believe me or not, that's amazing latency for me, heh!

Im gonna do some more testing tonight... later!

sp00n · 05/10/07, 6:12 PM

Originally Posted by Orinas

On the question of whether or not the blue post on weapon skills was correct, I recently discovered that your fishing skill IS your fishing weapon skill (I equipped the quest reward from Shat. and found that my weapon skill was 395, and then added a +75 lure and it became 470). Assuming the fishing skill acts as the weapon skill for a fishing rod, one could test the miss/dodge/parry rate against a level 70 mob (or a boss mob) and see weapon skills work. With such big weapon skill difference (350 to 470), it'll probably be easier to see, and get better results that aren't reliant on maybe 10 weapon skill difference, where luck might play a factor in a small sample. I'll try to run some tests later today if I can get a healer, but I don't have a lot of time right now.

As far as I know this has been fixed quite some time ago.
People *were* actually using their fishing poles as weapons.

Sokkou · 05/10/07, 6:25 PM

Can someone model Heartrazor correctly?

Word on the street is its an 8% proc off any attack.

Noctral · 05/10/07, 6:36 PM

Originally Posted by laforce

Hi guys, I was trying to understand some combat logs and I dont get wtf is with the timeframe between the attacks.. the attacks below are all offhand attacks, I took off my MH.

Offhand speed: 1.6, no buffs, no mongoose, no haste trinkets. Pure 1.6.

5/10 11:32:36.765 You hit Teromoth for 167.
5/10 11:32:37.687 You hit Teromoth for 131.
5/10 11:32:38.328 You hit Teromoth for 138.
5/10 11:32:39.796 You crit Teromoth for 269.
5/10 11:32:40.109 You hit Teromoth for 152.
5/10 11:32:41.640 You hit Teromoth for 132.
5/10 11:32:41.640 You hit Teromoth for 145.
5/10 11:32:43.421 You hit Teromoth for 149.
5/10 11:32:44.828 You crit Teromoth for 272.

Why do the attacks all have different delay between each other.. and at 11.32.41.640 I had 2 attacks at the same time.. wtf.. is this lag factor or somethin?

Taking off your mainhand weapon just makes you punch things with your fist, so I'm guessing it's something more like this:

5/10 11:32:36.765 You hit Teromoth for 167. (OH)
5/10 11:32:37.687 You hit Teromoth for 131. (MH)
5/10 11:32:38.328 You hit Teromoth for 138. (OH - 1.563s from last OH hit)
5/10 11:32:39.796 You crit Teromoth for 269. (MH - 2.109s from last MH hit)
5/10 11:32:40.109 You hit Teromoth for 152. (OH - 1.781s from last OH hit)
5/10 11:32:41.640 You hit Teromoth for 132. (MH - 1.844s from last MH hit)
5/10 11:32:41.640 You hit Teromoth for 145. (OH - 1.531s from last OH hit)
etc..

Makes more sense since all numbers are within 200ms of what they should be. (fists are 2.0 speed)

◊ Lrigatonmai · 05/10/07, 6:38 PM

Originally Posted by laforce

I didnt have anything on my MH... and my lag at that time was around 250ms.. believe me or not, that's amazing latency for me, heh!

Im gonna do some more testing tonight... later!

If you had nothing in your MH than you're probably seeing your unarmed swings from your main hand.

• Aldriana · 05/10/07, 6:38 PM

Originally Posted by Sokkou

Can someone model Heartrazor correctly?

Word on the street is its an 8% proc off any attack.

I'd be somewhat surprised if the proc rate is actually 8%, but assuming it is:

Typical dagger rogue launches ~1 MH attack per second with a 1.8 speed dagger.

Thus, at an 8% proc rate it will proc .08 times per second

Hence, the uptime will be something like 1-(1-.08)^10 = 56%

Thus, the effective benefit is rougly equal to .56 times 250 AP = static 140 AP.

If true, it would mean that Heartrazor crushes Fang of Vashj in the dps department.

Xizenta · 05/11/07, 1:06 AM

Originally Posted by Gogge

I've tried TargetArmor for a while and it shows, effective:

Attumen: 8312
Midnight: 7531
Moroes: 7112
Maiden: 6065
....

Wow, this changes everything.
Envenom officially better than eviscerate now?

koaschten · 05/11/07, 4:35 AM

Please remember that usually you got 5 Sunder Armor on a Mob, removing 2600 armor. If you have a Druid, Faerie Fire will remove another 610 armor. Unless you are Mutilate specced you should rupture anyway due to the higher average dmg compared to eviscerate with mangle on the target.

Xizenta · 05/11/07, 4:44 AM

Originally Posted by koaschten

Please remember that usually you got 5 Sunder Armor on a Mob, removing 2600 armor. If you have a Druid, Faerie Fire will remove another 610 armor. Unless you are Mutilate specced you should rupture anyway due to the higher average dmg compared to eviscerate with mangle on the target.

I think his values were often collected with sunders or faerie fires on the mobs.

feanor831 · 05/11/07, 4:52 AM

I am struggling to find the posts on this and any other forum relating the exact Sword specialization changes as currently implemented on the PTR. What exaclty has been changed? Were there any tests done on whether the reset on main hand swing has been removed? And whether the sword procs are considered to be specials and not suffer from glancing blow penalty?

In order to compare DPS between fists and swords, can one test sword specialization DPS as a true extra attack? Doing this and averaging it over 5 min with weapons

MH average hit: 500 @ 2.6
OH average hit: 216 @ 1.5

Sword specced rogues will do a lot more DPS than fists and it isn’t as close as it used to be. Will this effect bring a dramatic change in PvP as well if the DPS is as dramatic as this? Or am I completely off the ball here?

Lace · 05/11/07, 5:24 AM

This is a silly question, but just wanted to be sure. I know a warrior can not apply sunder armor if expose armor is put up by a rogue; but can he apply devestate to renew sunder armor if expose armor is up? I am pretty sure the answer is "no" but thought I would ask because if you could, it would be a massive DPS increase =P.

Edit: Nvm, they probably don't stack in the first place, making the question mute

Zoro · 05/11/07, 7:50 AM

Shouldn't be that hard to add +3% crit damage. You just need to add an IF statement based around the Diamond to the crit damage cells along the lines of *IF(Diamond,1.03,1).

I'd do it myself but my Excel is borked and I'm off out for the weekend