Did a little testing myself on the PTR with the Warp-Spring Coil, and try as I might I just can't bring myself to justify using this over my abacus, no matter how much I want to max my hit (312 with the WSC, so I can swap out a dawnstone for a topaz and be at hit cap) and use Shiny Purplz.

AFAIK, since it only procs on specials, it's considerably better with sword/fist spec than daggers, and haste has no effect on how it works, right? Seeing as I'm dagger specced, is it safe to say that I'd be better off using abacus until I get a Tsunami Talisman (which my guild's resident enh shammy is drooling over too D? :P

Especially Swords, because the new sword spec is considered a special attack which can proc the warp-spring coil as many times mentioned before in this thread. And yes, your asumption that abacus will be better for that reason is at least from a non-objective point of view correct.

Ah, but how many OH attacks via shiv are you doing?
That's where the circular references came in. The number of shiv strikes was dependant on which cycle you were performing. The cycle you were performing depended on the energy values of the different cycles. Those energy values were dependant on the number of potency procs. The number of potency procs depended on how many shivs you were performing....

When that created circular referencing, I moved shiv potency procs into the individual cycles themselves, to avoid that dependancy. It through up another circular reference that I couldn't track down and didn't seem to make any sense.

Eventually this morning I figured out it was being caused by the 'use Ghostly strike if hemo' part. GS has a 15s CD, and in each cycle referenced cyce time, which was tied to cycle energy. Attempting to tie energy to cps tied it to the GS part, causing the circular. Have written a work around, it's messy but does the job.
Shiving whilst using GS wont work properly as it'll inflate energy very slightly, but no-ones about to use it.

Once I've got it hammered out, I'll post a savefile link.
The immediate thoughts are that Shiv actually holds up rather well with scaling - much better than I imagined. It's actually closer to CSwords when buffed than it is unbuffed. That seems to arise out of the mooted efficiency gains in S&D cycles scaling whereas the absolute difference in damage between SS/Shiv doesn't change that much.

2.2.4k uploaded.

Includes the 3% crit addition for Relentless Earthstorm diamonds and Shiv as a combo builder.
Added some new cycles that are Shiv friendly, but even with the energy efficiency of Shiv, 1s/5r still remains ost efficient cycle.

http://www.savefile.com/files/723602

2.2.4l
http://www.savefile.com/files/724021

Patch 6678 items

I'm no expert with Excel, but can't you simply do away with the CP procs on Shiv altogether and just apply them as a discount to it's cost. i.e. 1.4 weapon costs 34 to shiv with, but CP refunds an average of 3 energy a hit, so just do calculations as though Shiv costs 31?
Granted, working with an average cost means you may have more or less combo points in a given time frame depending on number of procs.. but there's really no way to account for that, all we can really consider is the average amount.

http://www.savefile.com/files/724021 fixed

added the primalstrike bonus ap to buffed ap in field Gear_Buffs I121 (was missing somehow)

http://www.savefile.com/files/724057

Hmm, but the amount returned by a CP proc is sufficiently large and infrequent that it's not clear that's the best course of action. The question you're actually asking is "If CP procs early in my cycle, how should I change the end of my cycle to make best use of the extra energy?"

I wonder if that's doable by the following method:

1) Create a possible cycle and set the Shiv energy based on the assumption of no procs
2) Create a bunch of extra cycles with Shiv costs adjusted on the assumption that you get 1/2/3... CP procs at different points of the cycle.

That would then let you say things like: "my base cycle is 4s/5r, but if CP procs in the first half of the cycle I should switch to 5s/5r/3e" or some such (warning: cycles are illustrative only!)

Would be an insane amount of work though.

Like many other people I'm dropping my gladiator's shiv/malchazeen 15/41/5 build to go combat swords. Luckily, I have enough arena points for the Slicer as soon as the server comes up--but not for the OH.

Well, I was playing around with my offhand choices, and the quickblade and latros offered a very small upgrade over using my shiv on the offhand < 5 dps unbuffed and 9 DPS buffed.

Is this a bug? I thought an OH sword was essential on a sword build? If not, I guess I will keep my shiv on my OH and not worry about saving arena points for a quickblade and another mongoose on it or Latro's.

Or should I definitely be using my Latro's from the get-go?

Just a quick question, does this latest spreadsheet include the sword spec changes currently on PTR ?

The Spreadsheet doesnt reflect that 2.1 swordspec cant glance. Therefore its dps is showing too low i would guess.

I dont really want to be mean, but this method of incorporating shiv/combat potency is not the best way. Simply adjusting the base energy cost of the move would be far better and would only change 1 cell. Second, your formula does not provide for offhanded daggers with shiv, I realize that most people know shiv with daggers suck, but as it stands right now, the sheet shows searing sunblade as the best shiv weapon. Also, shiv should only be activated if Instant poison is being used (and a FAQ question added about it stating that its only active with non-daggers/IP), as there are far too many people who blindly follow the sheet. Also, weapon procs and enchant procs (2 seperate pages) need to be adjusted since right now, shiv procs windfury/mh poisons etc should be altered. Obviously, shiv should not proc IP in the sheet since its already proccing it before. It should not be too hard to seperate them, but little things like that have to be taken into account for, or else its not accurate. One last thing about new cycles with shiv is that with shiv, you can produce a cycle that is shorter than the length of rupture, so there needs to be a minimum clause set on those cycles to 16 seconds (was not a problem with SS cycles as they were 17+ seconds). J and L columns should have to be altered to correct this.

Also, when checking shiv + daggers, I found someone deleted the stats on adamantite dagger thus causing the sheet to break when its being used. Checking thottbot, the dagger probably doesnt belong on the sheet in the first place. Also, sword procs need to be rewritten from scratch after how they work has been better determined (chain procs, what can a sword proc proc etc). If they made all sword procs a mainhand special attack, sword spec will be overpowered and should be in line for a nerfing.

To do it that way, it would have to be set up similar to the mutilate cycle sheet. It takes a LOT of work to do that and account for most conceivable options. However, with some precautions, a good shiv cycle should be fairly easy to come by.

As a matter of fact, I've experienced double IP procs from Shiv while testing out the cycles. It seems that IP still has its natural 20% proc occur concurrently w/ the forced proc.

Should be easy to test how sword spec works - get a nice 1-handable sword with a slow weapon speed (just about anything), toss a white/grey low level dagger in the other hand, and record what damage Sword Specialization hits for over a few hits. Switch the weapons and see what damage Sword Specialization hits for - if they're both high numbers (but the 2nd is lower by ... you know, 25% or so), then it uses whichever hand procs the sword spec. If the first is high and the 2nd is low, it proc's a MH yellow hit always. If they're both equally high, then sword spec is REALLY broken (i.e. proccing a "MH sword hit with OH's dmg range" style broken) and should be reported and fixed so we get a nice, but not overpowered, sword spec.

I'd do it but I am at work. Anyone else willing to give this a shot? It seems like it makes sense, but I would be curious how items that grant an extra attack figure into this if they follow the same rules as the actual new sword proc rules or are a rule set all of their own?

The proc is a yellow mainhand hit called "sword specialization" always, whether it procs from shiv, ss, mainhand hits, offhand hits, whatever.

I am on test currently testing this, and i got a weird result, i had a sword proc followed by 2 combat potency procs back to back, so does this mean that OH sword spec procs trigger combat potency ?

Sword spec on test seemed to always proc a main hand attack. Basically my average white damage was way below my average sword spec damage, while the max hits were exactly the same. (was using gladiator MH, latros OH so there was a pretty large damage disparity).

Edit: also the difference in damage between sword spec and white damage was large enough that it couldn't have just been due to the lack of a 25% OH penalty if that were the case.

Hmm, true enough. I was originally worried that doing that implementation might interfer with one of the cells on the _ dps sheets. Looks like it doesn't though so a much simpler implementation indeed.
*&%^$". That was in the 20 mins of stuff I lost yesterday to Excel currently bugging out on me. I thought I'd remembered everything, missed that off. The file on savefile was ...(version 1)(version 1)(version 2)(version 1) - shows how many recovererys it had been through.
I've seen double IP procs from shiv as well, so I didn't feel changes were neccessary on that front. You're right though - it should be made explicitly clear that Shiv is only for offhand IP - perhaps altering the Shiv button to only be activateable if IP in off hand.

I don't mind the critiscm at all. I try to fit in modding the sheet with low times at work, result is that sometimes the thought patterns get disjunctured. Got me this time trying to remember everything I'd done the previous day. Throwing it out on this thread allows people to be a much better proofreading than my own few minutes grabbed here and there.

Hm, is there any way to get an approximate total of the DPS being produced by the poison on that Shiv model? With anasthetic, it could make for an interesting low-thread dps model . . . . maybe I'll try it on the next 5 man onyxia. :P

Can someone also get a shaman friend and see if WF procs off it as well?