Bonescythe is as already mentioned only in a few cases better than ACLG:
- you have Death's Sting
- you are wearing some other +dagger items
- you receive the 4 piece Bonescythe bonus when switching from ACLG to T3
- you aren't wielding a dagger in your offhand
According to this spreadsheet, a sword rogue with Gresil/Hungering Cold does basically identical damage to a dagger rogue with Kingsfall/Death's Sting, assuming both have Windfury. I'm pretty ignorant as far as top-level raid DPS goes; can anyone verify these kinds of results? It sure makes combat daggers seem less attractive if damage output is identical.
Looks to me like equal gear (armor, etc.) gres/hung comes out about 10-12 dps less than kings/death. Not a huge margin by any means. But you're talking about the bleeding edge here. Up until that point in itemization there's really nothing that touches combat daggers. CD rogues can keep up with any sword rogue up through the end of aq and onto naxx with a weapon they got off of rag a year and a half ago... : / And that's without any upgrade all the way through bwl.
Hopefully they'll fix the itemization so that there will be more viable options. Fixing sword spec would be a start.. or maybe adding more than 3-4 good mh daggers/swords and 1-2 claws... :(
First off, thank you to everyone who has put time into this sheet (first revs and this one). I've been useing it for a while now and every release it just gets better and better and it's certainly alot better than my long ass math formula that only factored in a fraction of what this sheet covers now.
One thing I've noticed that is always missing is a high end blue bow out of LBRS called "Riphook" not the best, but certainly competitive for melee DPS +22ap
I think it's been left off the sheet because alla does not sort for it properly when using the advanced search function. I always add it in, but thought maybe someone just getting started raiding might find it useful to be on the sheet permenatly. http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=12653
Thanks again for all the time you have invested, it really is a time saver and great information tool.
Actually I think Kalman posted the math showing that the increase in fixed damage for the two worked out to be about the same improvement, but its probably lost in the mess that is that Q&A thread now, like on page 20something.
Actually I think Kalman posted the math showing that the increase in fixed damage for the two worked out to be about the same improvement, but its probably lost in the mess that is that Q&A thread now, like on page 20something.
Yeah, but it's more complicated than all that anyway. It's relatively easy to pull scaling coefficients out for the various instants under varying conditions, and in the end you'll note that the scaling is very similar. Daggers start out a bit ahead and tend to maintain that advantage, assuming equal itemization - itemization at present is *not* equal, at least when you're clearing KT.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
This has been bugging me. I've been using this spreadsheet (and older versions) for a while, and it has always seemed to pretty accurately rank the different gear that I have used, with one exception: Mugger's Belt.
When I first started using Mugger's over Bloodfang for bosses, I saw an increase in DPS. I later got my hands on a Belt of Never-ending Agony. The spreadsheet tells me that with my gear and talents, Mugger's will still come out ahead vs. 63s by about 8 DPS, but I cannot replicate it.
I have used both belts on Patchwerk, and I consistently get 15 DPS more with BoNEA. Am I just getting lucky every time I wear that belt, and unlucky on Mugger days?
Notes:
I do have Weapon Expertise.
I do not have Death's Sting.
When I wear Mugger's I have 310 skill.
When I wear BoNEA I have 305 skill.
Other gear and buffs were equal for the kills being compared.
EDIT: I use a 5s cycle with extra energy going into more backstabs.
You can't really count on a 5 minute test i.e. patchwerk to compare DPS - esp. using something like recap. It is just too small a sample size and there are many random factors. It is also possible you are wearing ACLG.
Sorry, I should have explicitly said that I don't have ACLGs. I was hoping people would be able to infer it from the bolded statements below.
Originally Posted by Trazhenko
I do have Weapon Expertise.
I do not have Death's Sting. When I wear Mugger's I have 310 skill. When I wear BoNEA I have 305 skill.
The DPS was compared from a /combatlog parse. How many weeks do you think I should look at lower numbers wearing Muggers before I decide I'd rather wear BoNEA?
Sorry, I should have explicitly said that I don't have ACLGs. I was hoping people would be able to infer it from the bolded statements below.
Originally Posted by Trazhenko
I do have Weapon Expertise.
I do not have Death's Sting. When I wear Mugger's I have 310 skill. When I wear BoNEA I have 305 skill.
The DPS was compared from a /combatlog parse. How many weeks do you think I should look at lower numbers wearing Muggers before I decide I'd rather wear BoNEA?
Same buffs (and here I include same talents applied to those buffs - did you have a 3/8 Wrath battleshout one week, for example)? Same consumables? Same fight length? All of these affect things, and unless you're pulling out a 5 minute segment of your combat log starting at AR and using the same BF timings, it's really hard to say one compares to another.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Sorry, I should have explicitly said that I don't have ACLGs. I was hoping people would be able to infer it from the bolded statements below.
Originally Posted by Trazhenko
I do have Weapon Expertise.
I do not have Death's Sting. When I wear Mugger's I have 310 skill. When I wear BoNEA I have 305 skill.
The DPS was compared from a /combatlog parse. How many weeks do you think I should look at lower numbers wearing Muggers before I decide I'd rather wear BoNEA?
One week on patchwerk, I had 820 dps. With the same consumables/buffs/strategy, I had 780 the next week. I asked about CoR being up 100% and it was, FF, yep, 100%. Same 290 shout etc. Just by random luck, I had ~5% drop in dps. I also had furious howl both times which can be a very streaky buff.
How would one like myself be able to coerce someone to model the changes that are coming with the next patch (Combat Potency, Surprise Attacks, Weapon Skill nerf, etc.)?
How would one like myself be able to coerce someone to model the changes that are coming with the next patch (Combat Potency, Surprise Attacks, Weapon Skill nerf, etc.)?
Well. I'm leaving my job at the end of the month, so it might just come down to me getting bored enough sitting at home!
(Seriously, I think Pf has models for a good portion of that in progress, and once he has it down, I'll start ripping CP/Cycle apart to account for the new changes. Plus, someday I will do a statistical estimate of SF CP waste according to finisher CP usage!)
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
CD rogues can keep up with any sword rogue up through the end of aq and onto naxx with a weapon they got off of rag a year and a half ago... : / And that's without any upgrade all the way through bwl.
I have to say it, but this comment really bugs me. Talk about the DPS difference between swords and daggers all you want, but please drop the fact that you were stuck with a dagger from Rag onward. Perdition's Blade is the SAME item level as Chromatically Tempered Sword and Ancient Qiraji Ripper. THE SAME. So you got your uber upgrade in MC while we had to wait till BWL/AQ.
Now you've got multiple daggers above Perdition's (what, 4 at last count before Kel?) while we're still stuck with AQR until Kel'thuzad.
I have to say it, but this comment really bugs me. Talk about the DPS difference between swords and daggers all you want, but please drop the fact that you were stuck with a dagger from Rag onward. Perdition's Blade is the SAME item level as Chromatically Tempered Sword and Ancient Qiraji Ripper. THE SAME. So you got your uber upgrade in MC while we had to wait till BWL/AQ.
Now you've got multiple daggers above Perdition's (what, 4 at last count before Kel?) while we're still stuck with AQR until Kel'thuzad
Interesting. I always compared daggers vs swords that dropped from the same instance, which obviously showed daggers to be superior.
I believe looking at ilevels first probably will yield a much more interesting result. However going by my previous comparision methodology daggers were all the time ahead so far...
Wonder how it will work out in TBC.
Few people can see the genius in someone who has offended them.
For in much wisdom is much grief, and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
I think most people spent a lot of time farming one instance before the next one was released, then spent a lot of time learning it, and so on. So from a Dagger perspective, they simply did not have an upgrade to Perdition's until AQ40. Which for a guild that was working on this content from the begining is a pretty long wait. The fact that Perdition's is a damn fine dagger and it didn't actually *need* upgrading in BWL is true... but it's a perception thing. Like finally replacing that last piece of blue gear you couldn't seem to get a rid of, it feels like ages, and it's annoying.
Better from a design perspective would have been to have a slightly weaker Perdition's that drops pre-rags, perhaps just remove Gutgore, and provide an upgrade in BWL.
Anyway yes, Dagger itemization is superior when looked at as a whole.
New combat mechanic formulas
New armor value formula
Did they make a change to extra attack mechanic
Correct Mutilate formula
Does deadly poison stack per rogue
Does +skill affect armor
I have lots of questions that I would want answered, I could probably answer half of them myself if I had an account, but I am stuck on waiting for the beta patch. The other half of the questions will be answered by other curious observers anyway.
And, its never good to use low point finishers in sustained fights. (TE is not a sustained fight and a 3pt snd is a beautiful thing there)
Sorry, work took me out of town for a few weeks and I get back just as pre-Xpac PTR goes live. But, what I had manged to have a go at before I left, bearing in mind though it's about three weeks old :/
No, haven't seen anything different in my logs regarding sword spec procs or Thrash. Don't own HoJ and have been testing solo, so no idea about WF. I suspect not.
Mutilate appears to be what it says on the tin. A strike from main hand + strike from offhand. They're rolled seperately, and appear normalised. No idea if conditional modifiers are applied to each strike before summing or afterwards to the summed total. Mathematically it makes no difference unless it's something like you mutilate with only one Hemo debuff left. Given you can't solo test that, no idea.
Off hand strike is effected by offhand damage penalty, modified by duel wield spec.
Both strikes use the instant attack hit table. Seal Fate procs if either or both crit, but will only proc once even if both crit.
Didn't really get much further than that.
Mutilate was showing some very nice big numbers, but was proving overall streaky. Didn't see that much improvement over a stab build, but I suspect I was hindered by having to use ZG daggers and fast off. I guess with better weapons and a slow off it'd be more impressive.
Not partying up means I'm afraid I can't answer some of those questions, but I'll log and see about the + skill one.
I'll try to do some Mutilate testing if I can ever get copied to the PTR. I now have a set of matched-speed/close dps daggers that should be ideal for Mutilate.
Actually, you want them the other way round. With mismatched speed/dps you can swap the round to try and figure what the various rolls being made are. Ideally a good old rusty dagger to effectively reduce to zero one of the strikes.
Actually, you want them the other way round. With mismatched speed/dps you can swap the round to try and figure what the various rolls being made are. Ideally a good old rusty dagger to effectively reduce to zero one of the strikes.
The fact that Perdition's is a damn fine dagger and it didn't actually *need* upgrading in BWL is true... but it's a perception thing. Like finally replacing that last piece of blue gear you couldn't seem to get a rid of, it feels like ages, and it's annoying.
I've been with our guild for 1 year 9 months. We've killed rag since god knows when. We've killed nef for over a year, cthun for a few months, on sapph in naxx...
and i still have 2 blue trinkets as my everyday raiding gear (3 if you count the AD 81 attack power one).
i'm starting to feel worse about the trinket situation than the admittedly bad rag to twin emps dagger draught.
why not something like DFT + KoTS I finally replaced my last blue HoJ with my pretty Naxx trinket
Because in almost a year of running BWL I've seen a grand total of 2 DFTs drop, and 1/3 of any given raid seems to want it when it does?
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
exactly. we went for 11 weeks without a DFT drop. then one dropped. a hunter took it and stopped playing wow. 18 more weeks, and a rogue ahead of me in line got it. Haven't seen in in the 7 weeks since.
with 8 rogues, 4 dps wars, and 4 or 5 hunters in the guild, KotS and DFT are slim pickings.
11/08/06, 1:05 AM
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