Actually, the blue post says '.1% of critical strike rating'. Depending on how you take it, and I've always interpreted it one way, this can mean your total critical strike rating (take your character screen crit, convert it to critical strike rating, take .1% of that per point of weapon skill, add that to your weapon), or the way that some people want to take it, as '.1% crit' -- something it doesn't say. It's really hard to guess, though, since we can only parse and no one has fledged out what weapon skill itself does more fully.
If that were the case then it would go against every other mechanic currently in game that increases your chance to crit/hit/etc. That would basically be the equivalent of saying that (assuming you had a base crit chance of 25%) Cold Blood would give your next offensive ability a 50% chance to crit.
Thanks to Aldriana testing back there (page40-50, dont really remember), I was able to come to the same conclusion about +skill.. Formula I've come up with is:
Miss chance = 24% + (Mob defense skill - Your weapon skill)*0,1
So, against level 73 mobs if you have no +skill, your chance to miss will be 25,5%.. in order to avoid miss completely, you would need wEx. + Precision + 309 hit (rounding from 308,1)! I tested Lady Vashj yesterday for about 4-5 hours, and the formula is 100% correct, I was at +24,43% chance to hit (wEx, Precision and 307 hit) and I only missed ONE hit the entire night
Also, as stated on Blizzard's latest patch notes, you will get +0,1% crit for each +skill point you have against mobs above your level (aside from that 0,04% you already get on your char sheet, that applies to all mobs).. so, in boss-fights, +skill is actually worth +0,14% chance to crit..
Regarding parries and blocks, I cant draw any conclusions, as those numbers from the GM seem a bit off, but I will surely try to keep my +hit close to 309 now, as I've seen an outstanding improvement
Also, as stated on Blizzard's latest patch notes, you will get +0,1% crit for each +skill point you have against mobs above your level (aside from that 0,04% you already get on your char sheet, that applies to all mobs).. so, in boss-fights, +skill is actually worth +0,14% chance to crit..
Do they state that it's aside from the part on the paperdoll? Did you do any testing on this? I'm starting to get a bit weary of official Blizzard numbers. Against equal level mobs you gain +0.1% hit (shown earlier in this thread), same as against a lvl 73 boss (as you tested), showing that that part of weapon skill doesn't care about the level of the mob. Testing the crit part against equal level mobs (and skull level pre-TBC bosses) showed that it was likely only +0.04% crit, or at least not +0.14% (the two paladins and a snake boss thread). I've yet to see any testing against lvl 73 boss mobs that show that you gain +0.1% to crit against higher level targets.
I'd be careful about saying "this is how it is" without solid testing first.
This is something that has bothered me for a long time, and the spreadsheet seems to confirm, but not only was I unable to get my gladiator's right and left weapons in time to raid, my guild crashed, so I came here looking for your opinions.
Basically, for fist weapons, I'm under the impression that the focus should be on crit, rather than hit. So, I did a test. After reading the value of weapon expertise and hit rating, I went on the spreadsheet with some Kara/Gruul level equips, and switched out various gems until I got either the best hit, (309+Dragonspine+talents discussed priorly), or the highest crit. Both sets had the same amount of ap. Now, for unbuffed, I removed the ability to rupture, because if you're unbuffed, you aren't raiding, but probably killing random mobs and don't have time for rupture to tick down.
For the hit setup, I had (unbuffed):
Gladiator's Right/Left Rippers+mongoose
309+hit
Dragonspine
1569ap
30.72%crit
Which equaled 937.00 Unbuffed dps
For the crit setup, I had (unbuffed):
Gladiator's Right/Left Rippers+mongoose
276+hit
Dragonspine
1569ap
32.11%crit
Which equaled 946.19 Unbuffed dps
Now, since no one really cares how or what you do in your spare time, I went into buffed dps and reactivated rupture.
Crit gear (buffed)
Gladiator's Right/Left Rippers+mongoose(windfury main/deadly oh)
276+hit
Dragonspine
2886ap (not sure where the 2ap is coming from. All the numbers adding to ap are the same on both sheets)
39.22%crit
Which equaled 1702.31 3snd/5r cycle dps
If anyone wants to see the spreadsheets, I'll upload them somewhere so you can see exactly what I'm talking about, but so far, crit has been my spec of choice for fist weapons. Anyone else have an opinion on this? Sorry for questioning this hit rating bandwagon that alot of rogues seem to be jumping onto, but I'm just curious.
in order to avoid miss completely, you would need wEx. + Precision + 309 hit (rounding from 308,1)!
I agree with everything else in your post, but question where you get 308.1 (and therefor 309) hit rating. 25.5 base miss rate - 1% from wEx - 5% from Precision = 19.5% from hit rating. 19.5 * 15.77 = 307.515, or 308 to never miss.
Just a note, I've been at 308 hit rating for just over 2 weeks now (since the patch), and the only times I've seen misses in my logs are from Attumen when he does that hit debuff. The rest of Kara, Gruul and Mag are all miss-free. At 307 hit rating I'd expect 0.032% change to miss, or roughly 1 once every 3000 swings. That about fits with 4-5 hours of Lady Vashj attempts.
I agree with everything else in your post, but question where you get 308.1 (and therefor 309) hit rating. 25.5 base miss rate - 1% from wEx - 5% from Precision = 19.5% from hit rating. 19.5 * 15.77 = 307.515, or 308 to never miss.
Rounding issues, 308.1/19.5 = 15.8 instead of 15.77.
I just recently got back to playing my rogue and have been catching up on the class mechanics with this spreadsheet amongst other things. However, the one thing I'm not sure about is how weapon specs work nowadays. In the past, fist spec for example would give you that 5% crit to your offhand attacks regardless of what weapon you had in it, as long as your main hand weapon was a fist. So does it still work like this? I'm thinking of using the Aldor sword with a fast dagger in my offhand, and according to the spreadsheet that should work just fine, but some people mentioned that the weapon specs no longer work that way.
I just recently got back to playing my rogue and have been catching up on the class mechanics with this spreadsheet amongst other things. However, the one thing I'm not sure about is how weapon specs work nowadays. In the past, fist spec for example would give you that 5% crit to your offhand attacks regardless of what weapon you had in it, as long as your main hand weapon was a fist. So does it still work like this? I'm thinking of using the Aldor sword with a fast dagger in my offhand, and according to the spreadsheet that should work just fine, but some people mentioned that the weapon specs no longer work that way.
Well if you spec combat potency, which is imo the best dps talent in all of the three trees, you gain quite alot by using a faster offhand. In fact, using a faster offhand (unless swordspecced...) severely outweights any spec-choices and/or most dps-levels. Someone mentioned earlier that about 0.1 faster offhand with combat potency is worth about 10 weapon dps. 5% crit equals approx 5% more dmg from the offhand. Offhands doesn't deal very much dmg in comparison to the mh's, so getting a faster weapon (and whatever type but realistically you're looking at a dagger; Searing Sunblade) outweights having a fist offhand.
(personally I'm currently using gladiator's fist MH, and searing sunblade.)
Well if you spec combat potency, which is imo the best dps talent in all of the three trees, you gain quite alot by using a faster offhand. In fact, using a faster offhand (unless swordspecced...) severely outweights any spec-choices and/or most dps-levels. Someone mentioned earlier that about 0.1 faster offhand with combat potency is worth about 10 weapon dps. 5% crit equals approx 5% more dmg from the offhand. Offhands doesn't deal very much dmg in comparison to the mh's, so getting a faster weapon (and whatever type but realistically you're looking at a dagger; Searing Sunblade) outweights having a fist offhand.
(personally I'm currently using gladiator's fist MH, and searing sunblade.)
Yeah, thanks. That's kind of what I gathered from my tests too, sword spec is just 20-30dps with my gear. Considering the offhand sword I was about to use is 1.8 speed, I'm much better off with a 1.4 dagger in my offhand. Don't quite have the badges for the Sunblade yet, but I'll get there soon.
Yeah, thanks. That's kind of what I gathered from my tests too, sword spec is just 20-30dps with my gear. Considering the offhand sword I was about to use is 1.8 speed, I'm much better off with a 1.4 dagger in my offhand. Don't quite have the badges for the Sunblade yet, but I'll get there soon.
Don't do that. You'd probably *lose* DPS offhanding a dagger instead of a sword with sword spec, regardless of your sword being 1.8 spd vs the 1.3 spd Sunblade. Just go run Black Morass a few times and get a Latro's.
EDIT: disregard. I should have read the other posts in that mini-discussion, sorry.
I agree with everything else in your post, but question where you get 308.1 (and therefor 309) hit rating. 25.5 base miss rate - 1% from wEx - 5% from Precision = 19.5% from hit rating. 19.5 * 15.77 = 307.515, or 308 to never miss.
Just a note, I've been at 308 hit rating for just over 2 weeks now (since the patch), and the only times I've seen misses in my logs are from Attumen when he does that hit debuff. The rest of Kara, Gruul and Mag are all miss-free. At 307 hit rating I'd expect 0.032% change to miss, or roughly 1 once every 3000 swings. That about fits with 4-5 hours of Lady Vashj attempts.
Rounding issues, I took 1% as 15.8, not 15.77 You're right about that.. then 308 is the hit cap, not 309
Originally Posted by Gogge
Do they state that it's aside from the part on the paperdoll? Did you do any testing on this? I'm starting to get a bit weary of official Blizzard numbers. Against equal level mobs you gain +0.1% hit (shown earlier in this thread), same as against a lvl 73 boss (as you tested), showing that that part of weapon skill doesn't care about the level of the mob. Testing the crit part against equal level mobs (and skull level pre-TBC bosses) showed that it was likely only +0.04% crit, or at least not +0.14% (the two paladins and a snake boss thread). I've yet to see any testing against lvl 73 boss mobs that show that you gain +0.1% to crit against higher level targets.
I'd be careful about saying "this is how it is" without solid testing first.
You're correct, my tests were only about the +hit part, not the +crit against higher level mobs.. that would be a PAIN to test, since the difference is so small.. :~
A bit of a derail, but I've been considering running through heroic Shattered Halls for the Bladefist, which the spreadsheet says gives higher output than the gladiator fist -- is this accurate, or is it based on a guess on the haste proc?
Im currently using Bladefist, it procs like crazy, and doesnt have an internal cooldown
But I'm using a Gladiator's Shiv @ OH, since I already had it and don't want to spend any more points before the new season comes.
The Known Issues section of the original post states:
The hidden 3 second cooldown only applies to the shaman's self weapon buff, not the totem. For modeling purposes, use the standard 20% proc rate.
Over the some 300 WF procs I have logged the lowest number between procs I've seen has been 671 ms, that's a single freak occurrence (most likely client side lag) with no other proc below 1200 ms. Sounds pretty strange for a 20% proc to not get some back-to-back procs, or even remotely close to that. Going through the same logs for the old sword spec procs I get several sword spec procs that occur below 500 ms and the lowest at 250 ms (175 procs).
Anyone have some more extensive logs that show more conclusive how WF totem behaves?
Over the some 300 WF procs I have logged the lowest number between procs I've seen has been 671 ms, that's a single freak occurrence (most likely client side lag) with no other proc below 1200 ms. Sounds pretty strange for a 20% proc to not get some back-to-back procs, or even remotely close to that. Going through the same logs for the old sword spec procs I get several sword spec procs that occur below 500 ms and the lowest at 250 ms (175 procs).
Anyone have some more extensive logs that show more conclusive how WF totem behaves?
Did your main hand weapon have roughtly 1500 regular attacks for the duration of your logging? If not, what was your actual number of main hand attacks?
Over the some 300 WF procs I have logged the lowest number between procs I've seen has been 671 ms, that's a single freak occurrence (most likely client side lag) with no other proc below 1200 ms. Sounds pretty strange for a 20% proc to not get some back-to-back procs, or even remotely close to that. Going through the same logs for the old sword spec procs I get several sword spec procs that occur below 500 ms and the lowest at 250 ms (175 procs).
Anyone have some more extensive logs that show more conclusive how WF totem behaves?
How fast was the MH weapon? You can't get procs closer together than you have attacks...
It appears sword spec is being reverted to white hits in 2.1.2. They claim it won't reset your swing timer but I think we all know how much to believe Blizzard on technical details such as that.
Well, I tried including 2.1 Sword Spec changes.
Changed Formulas to reflect:
1. extra attacks don't glance
2. extra attacks can't proc extra attacks
3. extra hits from oh+ss are real extra hits, no half ones, also "killed" pf's awesome lagfactor :/
4. extra hits are still able to proc other things than sword spec procs (I absolutely have no idea wether this is correct or not, can sword spec hits proc trinkets/poisons etc?)
Furthermore I changed the Poison Vial formula.
mih made it work like 2,5ppm from mh and 1,4ppm from oh ^^
Now its 2,5% proc chance overall.
p.s.:
I don't really like the thundering skyfire formula, is there any thread about it? Can't test it myself, because no one has the recipe on my realm :/
*edit*
Well, I'll upload a second version with the possible 2.1.2 changes...
*edit2*
ok...
Changed it, so the extra hits do glance again AND because of "Extra attacks will appear in white and act like any auto-attack", I reimplemented Proc-On-Procs.
So I don't know how it will really work, be carefull with this version.
Well, if they change it this way, 2.1 Sword Spec and 2.1.2 Sword Spec won't be much of a difference in dps. (glance again, but also proc on procs again)
For current use of the Spreadsheet, please use the non beta version which I posted first.
The Beta version is prevalent for 2.1.2 and people who want to develop and work on the spreadsheet should better use this instead of the version with 2.1 sword spec.
It appears sword spec is being reverted to white hits in 2.1.2. They claim it won't reset your swing timer but I think we all know how much to believe Blizzard on technical details such as that.
I knew it was coming I just didn't think they'd jump on it this fast. So how long before they make mh proc mh and oh proc oh? :P
Well, it was reasonably overpowered anyhow - the main differences will be:
- can now glance: only on high lvl targets, 25% chance to get a 25% reduction, which is a 6.25% damage reduction on a small amount of our damage (i.e. hardly noticable)
- has white hit miss rate: add 19% chance to miss with sword spec. If you're sword spec you should be trying to stack hit rating to the cap anyway (i.e. SHOULD be hardly noticable, except at low gear levels)
- won't proc the warp spring coil anymore. Grats Mut rogues on your new trinket - don't think any swordies are going to roll on this one anymore.
Still need to confirm if OH Sword Spec procs OH swing damage (that'd sting a little more, but is probably more inline with the ability's intended power), and if it procs OH poisons/procs/abilities (we know it procs CPot right now)
Did your main hand weapon have roughtly 1500 regular attacks for the duration of your logging? If not, what was your actual number of main hand attacks?
A quick WWS shows roughly 2000 melee attacks (2.6 MH and 1.4 OH so about 700 MH attacks?) and 500 SS on Lurker, around 1200 melee (another 500 MH perhaps) and 300 SS on Gruul. Not sure about % totem uptime. (logs)
Originally Posted by Aldriana
How fast was the MH weapon? You can't get procs closer together than you have attacks...
* Sword Specialization: The change to Sword Specialization making its extra attacks appear in yellow has been reverted. Extra attacks will appear in white and act like any auto-attack. They will no longer reset the swing time of your weapon.
From the 2.1.2 Test notes.
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06/05/07, 12:30 PM
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