feanor831

I'm not sure If the 3sec cooldown don't apply to the totem, but was under the impression that it always did. There is alot of debate on whether WF totem is actually worth it to dagger rogues, as it is a pure chance on hit and not a PPM. With no CD and pure chance on hit it *can* even be better than for slower weapons. The 3 sec cooldown on a totem might render WF not as good for daggers and mostly only viable for SS based weapons.

Anyway someone with a shammy friend can test the number of increased procs with a 1.8 speed weapon compared to a 2.6 speed, assuming that the 3 sec CD does exist? With increased proc rate known, I think it will be easier justifying the loss/gain of using daggers with WF and will make it easier to determine if GOA totem is better for Combat daggers rogues.

 

feanor831

The thing concerning new sword spec (2.1.2 --> procs being white), after the patch with extra attacks being yellow, sword vs fist was a clear wash for me in favor of swords as discussions and test with math from Ippon gave it +-14% gain assuming :

25% to crit
10% to miss (lack of hit rating just for arguments sake)
5% dodge
2 identical weapons that deal 500 avg damage per attack.

This will go up even with higher hit rating and those results excluded CP proccing from sword spec and trinket advantages. ( also assumes offhand proc gives mainhand damage )

In order to calculate the new advantages of sword spec in 2.1.2 being white attacks, we will have to determine if

-Offhand procs offhand or mainhand damage,
-Does CP still proc of sword procs
-Does poisons now proc of sword procs (Didint while it was yellow)
-Does trinkets proc with sword procs
-Does white sword procs, proc weapon enchants like Mongoose now

Its states in patch notes that it doesn't reset mainhand timer.

Every change to sword spec one have to test everything again, as they wont really say what they changed.

The main thing I think will be if it still procs CP and poisons now.

 

Royksopp

Come 2.1.2, sword spec procs are back to being white.

 

Grimmlokk

I heard a rumor that Sword Spec is getting changed back to white in the next patch. Anyone else heard that? Total insider info, if they find out I posted this I'll get banned for life!


More seriously though, got a Malch on Tuesday when I was the only rogue but I was leary of re-speccing to daggers because of the power of sword spec. Have the points for an arena offhand but waiting for tuesday to see what shows up for Season 2 rewards.

So my question is for raiding rogues. In actual boss situations will Combat Dags keep up with Sword Spec after the patch? Not the theoretical "Stand n Swing" we usually deal with, but in reality.

 

Apsalar

Drama queen :p It isn't a rumor since the PTR patchnotes are already up.


If you want reality we'll just have to wait until the patch, because i seriously doubt anyone is raiding on the PTR.

 

◊ Sarutobi

Why would it be strange for only 1 set of procs to be less than 1.2 seconds apart? WF can only proc off a MH attack, so unless your MH attack speed was under 1.2 seconds, or you were timing your SS/BS to land at the same time as a MH swing, 1.2 seconds like a reasonable amount of time between procs on consecutive swings.

As for the sword spec procs, the time has the potential to be shorter between them due to the fact that you're also getting procs from your OH. (assuming you have a sword in your OH)

 

◊ Sarutobi

I wasn't aware that it did proc WSC. I remember seeing a thread that was testing it, but don't remember any conclusive results.

And, to be honest, I haven't followed too many threads/posts concerning WSC, so correct me if I'm wrong. But the only possible reason I could see for this being more valuable to a mutilate rogue than a combat sword/mace/fist rogue would be if you had 2 chances to proc it on a single mutilate. But even in that situation, WSC has an internal cooldown so there would be relatively little difference in the actual uptime, and mutilate does less white damage than a combat spec and, it would seem, therefore benefit slightly less from the proc while it was up. That is, unless you're suggesting it as a PvP trinket.

 

Sneez

Excuse me for my bad English.

I have a noob question Can trinket, mongoose, poison, windfury proc on yellow attacks ?

Thx in advance

 

• Aldriana

My guess would be no. Even with the pre-2.1 sword spec (i.e., white attack that reset swing timer) I found sword damage potential to be significantly higher even in sustained situations - and, in general, nonsustained situations favor swords over daggers. Since the new sword spec appears for the moment to be no worse than pre-2.1, my guess would be that swords still win.

On the other hand, if they changed sword spec so OH hits proc OH attacks, that might change the calculations.

 

◊ Shaker

http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...0&postcount=15

was pretty conclusive about sword spec, and http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=35 is anecdotal, but it seems that since Mut has a chance to proc MH and OH poisons/etc, that it is internally registered as two special attacks, which would be consistent with the anecdote.

IF that is true, then Mut should make the best use of the trinket, since you're spending 30 energy per chance to proc. 30s hidden cooldown sucks, but quite frankly, I expect all high dps trinkets to be getting internal cooldowns, so I'm taking this as more of an assumption rather than a detraction. Personal preference, I know.

 

feanor831

The thing I am wondering is will the new sword spec still proc CP like the yellow attack now does currently? Cause if not and they change that OH hits proc OH attack, that will certainly give more CP procs as well as more poison procs where current implementation does not. Added to that one will see extra weapon enchant procs as well, if its really only considered a white attack with no extra strings attached.

Will be difficult to compare but if we consider it the same as pre 2.1 , only with mainhand reset removed, I certainly think it will surpass dagger type specs. Thing is only to hope/find out if it procs CP.

Did it proc CP before 2.1? Or did that only happen with the change to yellow attack?

 

• Aldriana

See, the thing is, the internal cooldown washes out a lot of the differences between spec. I mean, it's certainly a *bit* better for Mutilate, but not by an excessive margin; Mutilate would average 40 seconds between procs and combat swords maybe 45? Not that big a deal.

Nor is the change to sword spec a particularl big deal - in a typical minute one launches almost 20 sinister strikes but only gets half a dozen sword spec procs. So will the time between procs go from 42 to 45 or something? Yeah, probably. But that's not a crippling deficiency. If you felt it was worth using before, it probably still is.

The bigger problem is that it's just not that good in the first place...

 

Jordanish

It is kind of hard to tell with the new sword spec change. On one hand you have them saying 'will act like all other auto-attacks' which means that it will proc poisons/enchants/CP.
But then there is also the rule where things cant proc off procs. My guess is that if they make offhand attacks do offhand damage then CP will still proc from offhand SS procs.

 

◊ Sarutobi

I definitely missed that first post when it was up. And it makes it a fairly safe assumption that sword spec, in its current form, is capable of procing WSC.

The difference, however, between the proc rates using SS and mutilate wouldn't be as dramatic as you seem to think. With mutilate you're, theoretically, getting 2 chances to proc WSC every 6 seconds (1 every 3 seconds for simplicity of comparisson). Without combat potency you would regenerate enough energy to SS once every 4 seconds (15 per minute), but with combat potency:

1.5 speed OH:
w/ SnD - 1.154
hits per 60 seconds - 52
avg combat potency procs per 60 seconds - 10.4
avg energy gained from combat potency - 156
avg extra SS per minute - 3.9
total SS per minute (avg) - 18.9

So with a 1.5 speed OH you would average 18.9 SS per minute or 1 SS every 3.17 seconds.

1.4 speed OH:
w/ SnD - 1.077
hits per 60 seconds - 55.71
avg combat potency procs per 60 seconds - 11.14
avg energy gained from combat potency - 167.14
avg extra SS per minute - 4.18
total SS per minute (avg) - 19.18

With a 1.4 speed OH you will average 1 SS every 3.03 seconds.

So if you look at the actual numbers, WSC really isn't providing that much more of a benefit for mutilate than a non-dagger combat build.

 

◊ Shaker

While I 100% agree that the WSC isn't the trinket that is going to make or break this case, pooh-poohing a 40 sec refresh vs 45 sec refresh (especially for a 15 second long buff) is 25 seconds of a reasonably powerful proc every 10 minutes.

And yeah, if the ONLY change is that sword spec is a white hit now, it won't be a major nerf (though quite possibly a necessary one), but we'll see when we can get real testing exactly what's changed. Double CPot procs doesn't seem intentional (or else MH damage on the SwSpec hit that procs it isn't). I think we're in for some more sword spec overhauls at this point, till it's more inline with the other specs, though it'll be nice, as long as they don't screw it up.

 

• Aldriana

Yes, but the more relevant way to look at it is via uptime percentage; it drops from 37.5% uptime to 33.3% percent uptime, meaning the benefit from the armor penetration is reduced by a little over 10%. Since the armor penetration if about half the value of the trinket (with the +hit being the rest), this means that the difference in efficacy of the trinket is 5% or so. Since the trinket's total benefit works out to be a bit over 100 AP, the difference in efficacy if about 5AP.

Now, 5 AP is not to be totally neglected - every little bit helps. However, when the difference between trinkets is frequently in the 20+ AP range, it's generally not going to affect whether the trinket is worth using or not.

Or, looking at it another way: the trinket is up 4% less. While the trinket is up, you do an extra 7% damage. That means, over a sustained fight, the dps difference amounts to roughly .03%. As these things go, that's not a big deal.

 

Danther

I'd be curious to know how the new Sword Spec will affect a Fist/Sword combo. It was nice giving your OH weapon a 5% chance to proc a MH yellow attack. While the obvious response is, "Why not just use two swords?" ... I don't have a good MH sword yet.

If they change it to OH proccing OH (which I'd wager they're trying to do), then I'm wondering if that would cripple any potential viability the Fist/Sword build may have had. I've only recently gotten into arena, so I'm still deciding if I want to grab a new fist MH or simply go for straight up swords when I get the points.

 

Urraca

I'm not entirely sure if switching OH procs to the OH will necessarily be a desired 'nerf'.

Doing that would only cause more CP procs, would it not?

Therefore, I would imagine that OH SS procs still trigger MH swings. Making the nerf 'not terrible' but nowhere near it's previous power.

Moving away from a yellow attack means:

-Glancings Blows (ugh)
-a greater chance to miss (negligible if you're at the +hit cap like many high end rogues).

One thing that annoys me is that SCT would show my SS hits + crits which I kinda liked :-/

 

Backpain

I didn't realize fist/sword combo's were even viable when SS procs were yellow. I'm almost certain a SS proc from the OH would **not** proc a main hand fist attack, even when yellow.

I guess I'm trying to say, that you should probably go dual swords if you want to go swords. Should you want to go fist, main hand a fist - and grab a fast offhand. (sunblade, shiv or left ripper are all viable offhands.)



P.S. I went with the left ripper for the "cool" factor. Your mileage may vary.

 

◊ Sarutobi

OH sword spec procs have always triggered a MH swing, regardless of the weapon type in your MH.

 

◊ Shaker

It could hardly be causing any MORE CPot procs, seeing as right now an OH sword hit can proc a mainhand YELLOW attack which can proc CPot. This is already there, and (imo) slighly out of what should be the intended design of sword spec. OH proc = OH dmg + CPot + OH poison/enchant proc would be fine, OH proc = MH dmg + MH poison/enchant would be fine, but OH proc = MH dmg + MH poison/enchant + CPot would make sword spec far more scalable than any other weapon spec, when it should be a bit closer to equal.

 

Backpain

That sounds a tad broken to me. Peculiar to say the least. Regardless, why would you give yourself less chances to proc an extra attack by using only one sword? Especially when considering the option to purchase another arena weapon.

 

Tenge

Not directly on-topic, but a related observation:

I'm presuming one (or the only?) reason for the dev's changing this back to a white hit is due to the warrior side of Sword Spec - the yellow hit likely wasn't generating rage; by changing it back to a white hit, they're restoring this little bit of rage gain.

From the high-end rogue point of view, I agree that it's not a big deal aside from the glancing penalty. The miss-rate portion should be negligible at the level of play where it would really matter.

 

Siq

Its quite simpel:
MH Fist spec is not worse than MH Sword spec. Just oh fist spec is worse than oh sword spec.
Plus: Sword spec oh and fist spec mh results in 5% more crits on oh procs.
-> fist mh, sword oh with both specs is quite good
-> but dual sword with more points in poison talents, than in dual specs, will result in more damage anyways

 

Thousand

I have a quick spreadsheet question, sorry if its off the current topic. Looking at the cycles on the spreadsheet, what does that 'snd cut' mean? I am aware SNd = slice and dice, but for instance, for my recommended cycle its '1 point SNd, 5 point rupture snd cut'.

Just wanting a quick clarification on this