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04/19/07, 4:49 PM
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#1231
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Kalman
One of the more entertaining things you can do:
Go to a blank, unnamed cell.
In the cell naming field, type in skhit.
Hit enter.
It should pop you over to the skhit cell, wherever it may be.
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Thanks, but i messed this up and found something else that may help everyone out.
If you are looking for a variable Definition:
Insert->Name->Define
That will give you a list of all the variables on the sheet, i think i didn't cross reference everything but at first glance it looked okay, Go to the variable you are looking for and it will tell you where it is defined.
So using that, i found out skhit is == .2, i guess i forgot to uncheck the "New Blue +skill", but that is besides the point. I Hope this helps anyone out.
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04/19/07, 8:26 PM
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#1232
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Von Kaiser
Troll Rogue
Blackrock (EU)
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I think I managed to add some xs/5r cycles with snd time wasting instead of cb wasting
therefor I changed the "inst/sec" and the "snd damage" fields a little bit, should have no effect on the old cycles
well, so the whole thing is quite complex, I can't garantee that every needed field is changed correctly, but, the dps values for the "new cycles" are realistic at least
http://www.savefile.com/files/655420
*edit*
ah well, the results:
without 2nb best cycle was 4s/5r with snd wasting
with 2nb bonus best cycle is 1s/5r with snd wasting
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04/19/07, 11:41 PM
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#1233
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Siq
I think I managed to add some xs/5r cycles with snd time wasting instead of cb wasting
therefor I changed the "inst/sec" and the "snd damage" fields a little bit, should have no effect on the old cycles
well, so the whole thing is quite complex, I can't garantee that every needed field is changed correctly, but, the dps values for the "new cycles" are realistic at least
http://www.savefile.com/files/655420
*edit*
ah well, the results:
without 2nb best cycle was 4s/5r with snd wasting
with 2nb bonus best cycle is 1s/5r with snd wasting
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I'll look over that tomorrow and see if there are any problems with it. I know its not simple, and thats a reason I never did it as I preferred to work on other parts of the sheet when I had time.
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04/20/07, 5:00 AM
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#1234
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Piston Honda
Murloc Rogue
Aggramar (EU)
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Originally Posted by Aldriana
I'm pretty sure no cycle containing a 1 point eviscerate can be optimal, just looking at the energy-to-damage conversion efficiency. You're better off throwing an extra SS or BS and wasting the combo point than throwing a 1 point eviscerate.
snip math...
What this means is: 1s/5r/1e is never going to be a viable cycle. You'd have to get to at least 1s/5r/2e before it made sense, and the energy requirements on that are sufficiently absurd that i don't think we need to worry about them just yet. My instinct would be that after 1s/5r you start wasting combo points and/or SnD uptime, but I'll have to think about that.
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Right now.
I'm well aware that at the moment a /1e cycle is going to be hopeless compared to simply throwing in an extra spam move.
As I was saying though, the point is that the trend is always in one direction - that of reduced enrgy costs for the same effects. A year ago, we were saying you couldn't stabilise a cycle without using a 5s - now it appears 1s/5r is perfectly stable thanks to Combat Potency combined with 2 pc Netherblade.
Who's to say at some point in the future we don't get a talent 'Excessive Pain - Whilst you have S&D buff and mob has a Rupture Debuff from you, your other finishers cost 25 energy less' or T7 2 pc is 'Your finishers reduce the energy cost of your spam move by 10 energy for 6s'.
All kinds of stuff could be thrown in by Blizzard, but in general it's towards cycle compression. And if that's the case where do you go after 1s/5r?
Also...
The 'no slack' cycle stuff appears to make sense. A lot simpler than solutions I was envisaging. Well done Siq for a rather elegant solution, I can't see any problems with it.
Not sure why though, but row 32 of the unbuffed cycles is incorrect in cells b,c,d,e,f. They reference X5+x16 when it should be x7+x18
Last edited by Zoro : 04/20/07 at 5:20 AM.
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04/20/07, 8:45 AM
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#1235
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Glass Joe
Undead Rogue
Blackmoore (EU)
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I would actually like to see a rupture-cycle for mutilate specs
my current cycle is always 4 CP+ finishers, I keep SnD running and use Rupture as my main-finisher. Evis only, if rupture is still running (depending on relentless/crits).
Since we mostly got the mangle buff, a 5cp rupture ticks for 280 every 2 seconds (for a total of 2300), which i think is clearly superior compared to average evis-dmg
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04/20/07, 8:56 AM
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#1236
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Rogue
Illidan (EU)
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Just a quick question while i'm at work : how many ticks does a full 5cp rupture ?
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04/20/07, 9:10 AM
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#1237
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Von Kaiser
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...
I've been running with a rupture->snd cycle as well. It seems with mangle and the high-armor mobs in TBC rupture is a better damage finisher than eviserate.
Is there anyway to calculate the difference of a rupture vs evis.. with and without mangle?
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04/20/07, 9:10 AM
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#1238
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Siq
*edit*
ah well, the results:
without 2nb best cycle was 4s/5r with snd wasting
with 2nb bonus best cycle is 1s/5r with snd wasting
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How does your unbuffed/buffed DPS on the sheet using the 1s/5r cycle with 2nb compare with better individual items using 4s/5r?
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04/20/07, 9:14 AM
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#1239
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Von Kaiser
Troll Rogue
Blackrock (EU)
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Originally Posted by Zoro
Right now.
I'm well aware that at the moment a /1e cycle is going to be hopeless compared to simply throwing in an extra spam move.
As I was saying though, the point is that the trend is always in one direction - that of reduced enrgy costs for the same effects. A year ago, we were saying you couldn't stabilise a cycle without using a 5s - now it appears 1s/5r is perfectly stable thanks to Combat Potency combined with 2 pc Netherblade.
Who's to say at some point in the future we don't get a talent 'Excessive Pain - Whilst you have S&D buff and mob has a Rupture Debuff from you, your other finishers cost 25 energy less' or T7 2 pc is 'Your finishers reduce the energy cost of your spam move by 10 energy for 6s'.
All kinds of stuff could be thrown in by Blizzard, but in general it's towards cycle compression. And if that's the case where do you go after 1s/5r?
Also...
The 'no slack' cycle stuff appears to make sense. A lot simpler than solutions I was envisaging. Well done Siq for a rather elegant solution, I can't see any problems with it.
Not sure why though, but row 32 of the unbuffed cycles is incorrect in cells b,c,d,e,f. They reference X5+x16 when it should be x7+x18
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damn, that was my test row were i edited all the things to get it working as a snd time wasting cycle, later i coppied it to the bottom and coppied the lines from the old version over row 32, somehow I made a mistake there, sry ^^
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04/20/07, 11:07 AM
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#1240
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Von Kaiser
Troll Rogue
Blackrock (EU)
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new version:
http://www.savefile.com/files/657273
- fixed the row 32 mistakes
- changed the gladiator weapon stats (took stats from tb test http://www.thottbot.com/test/?f=w&na...=&c3=gt&v3=&e=)
- standard buffed pots I set to the 120 ap elixir, because with 2.1 flask/elixir get nerved pretty hard
Originally Posted by feanor831
How does your unbuffed/buffed DPS on the sheet using the 1s/5r cycle with 2nb compare with better individual items using 4s/5r?
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chosen equip you can see in the new version (somehow "speed equip" -> abacus, dragonspine)
results:
with handgrips of assassination:
unbuffed -> 3s/5r with 923,6 dps
buffed -> 4s/5r no slack with 1302,2
with nb gloves -> 2nb bonus:
unbuffed -> 1s/5r no slack with 930,1
buffed -> 1s/5r no slack with 1304,9
well, my conclusion:
2nb is quite nice, difficult to get better dps without, with the new engi goggles you should be able to make more buffed dps for example
but well, i only tested this equip, feel free to test some sets yourself ^^
and another little thing:
latro's is still quite good if the numbers are correct
obviosly the quickblade takes more profit out of haste items like dragonspine trophy
without abacus+dragonspine latro's is somehow still able to do more dmg buffed (blue post turned off)
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04/20/07, 11:18 AM
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#1241
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Glass Joe
Undead Rogue
Blackmoore (EU)
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Originally Posted by Quickshot
Just a quick question while i'm at work : how many ticks does a full 5cp rupture ?
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ticks every 2 secs for 16 seconds, so 8 ticks
Originally Posted by Lenaldo
I've been running with a rupture->snd cycle as well. It seems with mangle and the high-armor mobs in TBC rupture is a better damage finisher than eviserate.
Is there anyway to calculate the difference of a rupture vs evis.. with and without mangle?
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ofc. I won't include it by myself, since I think the spreadsheet won't work afterwards 
so i hope PF takes a look at it.
there are several factors to take care of:
-rupture can't crit
-rupture not affected by find weakness (?)
-rupture 25energy, evis 35 energy
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04/20/07, 11:24 AM
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#1242
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by pf
I'll look over that tomorrow and see if there are any problems with it. I know its not simple, and thats a reason I never did it as I preferred to work on other parts of the sheet when I had time.
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Ok, looked over your solution and there is a pretty big problem with it. The more SnD time you waste, the more dps you do (try forcing the snd value to 100 and see what I mean). The dps should remain the same for any amount of time that has "slack energy". Fixing this problem is a lot simpler than I first thought. On the Cycle time cell, you used EEC to determine the cycle time. Unfortunately, EEC only counts non-snd cpot procs. The easiest solution is to include make a 2nd EEC cell next to the first one for SND EEC(just multiply L1 by 1.3 from the previous formula). Using this fix, I was able to see constant dps on the cycle as long as I had slack energy which is exactly the way it should be. Also, you should work with Bleedo to get this into the main version of the sheet.
I will say this however, I would test out the 1s/5r rotation a bit before I used it in practice. I would guess that you would have a fair amount of SnD downtime due to unlucky procs. 2s/5r might be a better in-game solution. Anyway, from your practice determine the lowest snd value required to keep up the cycle and I would suggest that, that cycles that cannot be sustained in practice due to unlucky procs be left out of the sheet.
Edit: Just noticed that KoTS modeling does not give it extra CP procs since its tied into BF and uses a flat .26 value. Someone should put an if statement into M5 on the cycle sheets to make it .5526 with KoTS instead of .26
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04/20/07, 12:20 PM
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#1243
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Von Kaiser
Troll Rogue
Blackrock (EU)
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well. somehow it doesn't seem to work, I think i missunderstood something
what exactly is "ueec"/"eec", is it combat potency energy per sec without snd, or is it something else?
L1*1,3 decreases the dps with rising snd time o.o
so I basically understand the problem with no snd eec and snd eec, without knowing what eec exactly respresents I have my trouble understanding what could bei the problem with L1*1,3
greez siq
*edit*
well seems to be combat potency energy per sec without snd
gonna look at the whole thing again, later 
Last edited by Siq : 04/20/07 at 12:30 PM.
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04/20/07, 12:32 PM
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#1244
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Siq
well. somehow it doesn't seem to work, I think i missunderstood something
what exactly is "ueec"/"eec", is it combat potency energy per sec without snd, or is it something else?
L1*1,3 decreases the dps with rising snd time o.o
so I basically understand the problem with no snd eec and snd eec, without knowing what eec exactly respresents I have my trouble understanding what could bei the problem with L1*1,3
greez siq
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EEC right now is the base amount of 10energy/second you get. This includes adrenaline rush/blade flurry. However, when I added combat potency, I added the energy gained from combat potency in column B, which for SnD represents the amount of energy you have after you use all the instants required to fire up snd. I realize that sounds a little confusing, but thats how the cycle sheet worked. Basically, the extra energy added into that column from combat potency procs which dont happen cause you cut snd short are not being removed in your no slack cycles.
Anyway, the formula that needs to replace EEC (for the noslack stuff only, it would screw up the sheet if you plugged it into EEC) is for buffed:
=(10-M5/120*blfl+150/300*arush+bonenergy+L1*1.3)/10
And, as I said before, you'll know it works when using increasing snd times keeps a constant dps value.
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04/20/07, 1:23 PM
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#1245
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Mike Tyson
Night Elf Rogue
Doomhammer
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Originally Posted by Siq
- standard buffed pots I set to the 120 ap elixir, because with 2.1 flask/elixir get nerved pretty hard
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Fel Strength has been knocked down to 90 AP/-10 Sta. Major Agility is probably the best elixir to be using.
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