Shiv is getting 2.4 normalization even when off-handing a dagger, and I'm somewhat confused about how Shiv's poison component is being handled. OH Temp Enchant goes up b about 50% when Shiv is selected, which is too much to account for a more efficient cycle, and not enough to account for all of Shiv's poison damage. It seems like the kind of number I would expect if Shiv had the same chance of proccing poison as any other attack.
At the same time, Shiv's average damage appears to have the instant poison included in it. The problem here is that this happens before armor reduction is applied, so the poison is getting reduced by armor when it should not be.
I'm not profficient enough with spreadsheets to do all of this myself... but I would just eliminate the IP component of Shiv's avg damage and throw all of it's procs into the OH Temp Enchant calculation (add the shivs/sec and the regular attack proc/sec)
Last edited by MasterDinadan : 06/08/07 at 6:05 PM.
Based on paper's log, it doesn't look like offhand sword spec hits proc CPOT, and they use the OH damage range. I also didn't see any sword spec hits proccing more sword spec hits, but it was a quick glance.
From some quick tests in BL it shows that OH sword spec procs use the MH for the swing, and it procs MH poisons, seems like it's a "true" MH swing like the patch notes said. MH is a white 25 dps dagger:
6/8 23:55:57.906 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
6/8 23:55:57.906 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 335.
6/8 23:55:58.218 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 162.
6/8 23:55:58.234 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 160.
6/8 23:55:58.500 Your Wound Poison hits Servant of Allistarj for 65 Nature damage.
6/8 23:55:58.500 Your Wound Poison hits Servant of Allistarj for 65 Nature damage.
I didn't notice any double CPot procs, although it was a fairly short test. (log)
From some quick tests in BL it shows that OH sword spec procs use the MH for the swing, and it procs MH poisons, seems like it's a "true" MH swing like the patch notes said. MH is a white 25 dps dagger:
6/8 23:55:57.906 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
6/8 23:55:57.906 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 335.
6/8 23:55:58.218 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 162.
6/8 23:55:58.234 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 160.
6/8 23:55:58.500 Your Wound Poison hits Servant of Allistarj for 65 Nature damage.
6/8 23:55:58.500 Your Wound Poison hits Servant of Allistarj for 65 Nature damage.
I didn't notice any double CPot procs, although it was a fairly short test. (log)
Something is weird then, because take a look at these couple of pulls from his log:
6/8 18:37:25.421 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
6/8 18:37:25.421 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 173.
6/8 18:39:01.671 You crit Servant of Razelikh for 353.
6/8 18:39:03.468 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
6/8 18:39:03.468 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 154.
6/8 18:39:12.203 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 156.
6/8 18:39:13.828 Servant of Razelikh hits you for 102.
6/8 18:39:13.828 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
6/8 18:39:13.828 You crit Servant of Razelikh for 366.
I believe he said he was using gladi's slicer mh/quickblade oh, and those sword spec hits are way out of range for the slicer.
Also, from your log:
6/8 23:49:09.562 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
6/8 23:49:09.578 You crit Servant of Allistarj for 460.
6/8 23:49:09.953 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 171.
6/8 23:49:09.953 Servant of Allistarj attacks. You parry.
6/8 23:49:10.187 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency.
The sword spec crit is out of range for your MH rondel, and in range for whatever offhand you had equipped.
From some quick tests in BL it shows that OH sword spec procs use the MH for the swing, and it procs MH poisons, seems like it's a "true" MH swing like the patch notes said. MH is a white 25 dps dagger:
6/8 23:55:57.906 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
6/8 23:55:57.906 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 335.
6/8 23:55:58.218 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 162.
6/8 23:55:58.234 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 160.
6/8 23:55:58.500 Your Wound Poison hits Servant of Allistarj for 65 Nature damage.
6/8 23:55:58.500 Your Wound Poison hits Servant of Allistarj for 65 Nature damage.
I didn't notice any double CPot procs, although it was a fairly short test. (log)
Edit: nevermind, I couldn't see them for some reason.
6/8 23:49:09.562 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
6/8 23:49:09.578 You crit Servant of Allistarj for 460.
6/8 23:49:09.953 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 171.
6/8 23:49:09.953 Servant of Allistarj attacks. You parry.
6/8 23:49:10.187 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency.
The sword spec crit is out of range for your MH rondel, and in range for whatever offhand you had equipped.
Yes, it's an OH crit triggering the MH swing, showing that it uses the MH for damage. As I only had a sword in the OH it's the only source of procs.
You gain..
Triggering Swing
Resulting Swing
6/8 23:47:08.656 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
6/8 23:47:08.656 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 295.
6/8 23:47:08.906 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 173.
6/8 23:48:05.953 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
6/8 23:48:05.968 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 304.
6/8 23:48:06.312 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 159.
For it to use the OH for proc swings it'd need to be two high damage hits.
I didn't notice any double CPot procs, although it was a fairly short test. (log)
6/8 01:35:20.843 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 410.
6/8 01:35:21.343 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency.
6/8 01:35:21.343 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency.
6/8 01:35:21.343 Your Mark of Conquest heals you for 95.
6/8 01:35:21.343 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 189.
6/8 01:35:29.390 Your Sword Specialization crits Servant of Allistarj for 966.
6/8 01:35:29.984 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency.
6/8 01:35:29.984 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency.
6/8 01:35:30.000 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 436.
6/8 01:42:08.625 Your Shiv hits Servant of Allistarj for 291.
6/8 01:42:09.234 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency.
6/8 01:42:09.234 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency.
6/8 01:42:09.421 Servant of Allistarj attacks. You dodge.
6/8 01:42:14.750 Your Shiv hits Servant of Allistarj for 259.
6/8 01:42:15.359 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency.
6/8 01:42:15.359 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency.
6/8 01:42:15.562 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 176.
Shiv is getting 2.4 normalization even when off-handing a dagger, and I'm somewhat confused about how Shiv's poison component is being handled. OH Temp Enchant goes up b about 50% when Shiv is selected, which is too much to account for a more efficient cycle, and not enough to account for all of Shiv's poison damage. It seems like the kind of number I would expect if Shiv had the same chance of proccing poison as any other attack.
At the same time, Shiv's average damage appears to have the instant poison included in it. The problem here is that this happens before armor reduction is applied, so the poison is getting reduced by armor when it should not be.
I'm not profficient enough with spreadsheets to do all of this myself... but I would just eliminate the IP component of Shiv's avg damage and throw all of it's procs into the OH Temp Enchant calculation (add the shivs/sec and the regular attack proc/sec)
To add on to the Shiv component of the spreadsheet, 1s/5r/Xe seems perfectly possible with 2pc netherblade, and I'd be thankful if someone implemented those cycles into the spreadsheet. My friend also brought up a very interesting cycle where you do 5s/5r/5r and eviscerate if the rupture durations catch up with eachother. It's not a very simple thing to model, but worth a mention.
With the new Sword Spec changes in the upcomming PvP Patch what do you think would be the best choice to spend Arena Points on Main-hand/Off-hand Swords or Main-hand/Off-hand Fists for -purely- PVE DPS in ideal raid situations?
My Stats- 20-41-0
AP-1800
Hit-260rating
Crit- 21%(with Malice)
Using Thundering Skyfire gem, Poison VIal and Dragonspine Trophy.
Drums of Battle and Haste Potions used very often in fights and usually have Enhance Shaman in group.
6/8 01:35:29.390 Your Sword Specialization crits Servant of Allistarj for 966.
6/8 01:35:29.984 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency.
6/8 01:35:29.984 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency.
6/8 01:35:30.000 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 436.
Guessing it's not from PTR, I was referring to post 2.1.2 with white sword spec procs. I think purely autoattack with only the OH being sword should show if it works fairly quickly.
Anddacin you overlooked OH swing timer. There you have extended versions of cuts which you posted:
6/8 18:37:23.906 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 189. <- OH hit
6/8 18:37:24.187 You crit Servant of Razelikh for 873. <- MH hit
6/8 18:37:25.421 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
6/8 18:37:25.421 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 173. <- OH hit
6/8 18:37:25.734 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 379. <- Swordspec (MH damage)
6/8 18:37:25.734 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 424. <- MH hit a bit too fast, blame latency ? And can not be normal swing at same milisecond.
6/8 18:37:26.906 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 168. <- OH hit
6/8 18:39:01.281 You crit Servant of Razelikh for 805. <- MH hit
6/8 18:39:01.671 You crit Servant of Razelikh for 353. <- OH hit
6/8 18:39:03.468 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
6/8 18:39:03.468 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 154. <- OH hit
6/8 18:39:03.468 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 364. <- Swordspec (MH damage)
6/8 18:39:03.484 Servant of Razelikh attacks. You dodge.
6/8 18:39:04.171 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 393. <- MH hit (0.2sec late). Again we can't have 2 MH swings 0.6sec apart, so one is swordspec.
6/8 18:39:12.203 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 156. <- OH hit
6/8 18:39:13.828 Servant of Razelikh hits you for 102.
6/8 18:39:13.828 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
6/8 18:39:13.828 You crit Servant of Razelikh for 366. <- OH hit
6/8 18:39:14.125 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 423. <- MH/swordspec
6/8 18:39:14.437 You crit Servant of Razelikh for 832. <- MH/swordspec
Same story in all 3 cases. Weapons were 2.6 (main hand) and 1.5 (off hand).
Nobody replied to this guy, so I'll help him out...
Originally Posted by feanor831
I dont know, almost all shammies I talked says , NO totem has 3 sec CD and that GOA > WF for dagger, doesn't anyone have a combat log showing that there aint a 3 sec CD?
These shaman you talked to are wrong. There is no cooldown on the totem. The change was made to Windfury Weapon, people are just really confused about it. Just trust us on this one.
And with no CD, what the advantages DPS wise is over GOA?
Daggers and WF are a touchy subject, its a close call really, but you need to consider the synergy of the group as well - if there is a warrior in the group DPSing, he needs WF. Period. The gains he gets from that totem outweighs the gains that any rogue/druid/shaman in the group would get from GoA. As I said, daggers are going to be a close on on GoA/WF, but WF is pretty much universally modeled as being a higher gain for both sword and dagger rogues.
5/31 20:38:24.046 You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
5/31 20:38:25.968 You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
5/31 20:37:40.062 You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
5/31 20:37:44.125 You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
5/31 20:37:45.921 You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
5/31 22:29:53.968 Fllameman gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
5/31 22:29:55.906 Fllameman gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
6/1 00:16:13.000 Fllameman gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
6/1 00:16:14.156 Fllameman gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
6/1 00:16:16.953 Fllameman gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
Me (gladiator's right ripper), Fllameman (Malchazeen).
Anddacin you overlooked OH swing timer. There you have extended versions of cuts which you posted:
6/8 18:37:23.906 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 189. <- OH hit
6/8 18:37:24.187 You crit Servant of Razelikh for 873. <- MH hit
6/8 18:37:25.421 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
6/8 18:37:25.421 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 173. <- OH hit
6/8 18:37:25.734 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 379. <- Swordspec (MH damage)
6/8 18:37:25.734 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 424. <- MH hit a bit too fast, blame latency ? And can not be normal swing at same milisecond.
6/8 18:37:26.906 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 168. <- OH hit
6/8 18:39:01.281 You crit Servant of Razelikh for 805. <- MH hit
6/8 18:39:01.671 You crit Servant of Razelikh for 353. <- OH hit
6/8 18:39:03.468 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
6/8 18:39:03.468 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 154. <- OH hit
6/8 18:39:03.468 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 364. <- Swordspec (MH damage)
6/8 18:39:03.484 Servant of Razelikh attacks. You dodge.
6/8 18:39:04.171 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 393. <- MH hit (0.2sec late). Again we can't have 2 MH swings 0.6sec apart, so one is swordspec.
6/8 18:39:12.203 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 156. <- OH hit
6/8 18:39:13.828 Servant of Razelikh hits you for 102.
6/8 18:39:13.828 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
6/8 18:39:13.828 You crit Servant of Razelikh for 366. <- OH hit
6/8 18:39:14.125 You hit Servant of Razelikh for 423. <- MH/swordspec
6/8 18:39:14.437 You crit Servant of Razelikh for 832. <- MH/swordspec
Same story in all 3 cases. Weapons were 2.6 (main hand) and 1.5 (off hand).
Ahh, I had assumed the "You gain 1 etc" and the resulting hit were the same timestamp, not the triggering hit. So just to confirm, OH SS procs are using the MH range?
Do we have any conclusive evidence about CPot, poisons/trinkets, or proc-on-procs that ive overlooked?
Hmm. The new spreadsheet shows that the WSC is better for combat daggers than abacus when fully buffed, which is contrary to all the calculations I'd seen so far. Anybody willing to clear this up?
One thing I would like which I am not sure what numbers to use is how many SS would one get per min compared to BS per min? As these can proc WF as well , just not sure which numbers to use assuming same haste effects and hit capped... Just any kinda good approximation will do. SS every 3 sec? BS every 5sec?
Is there an easy way to import your gear/setup from a previous version into a new version? I usually only edit gear once per release or so, but it's a bit of a PITA with all the sockets now.
I dont know where that came from but it sounds like an awful lot too much..
I didnt have time to do a longer test now so only did about 1200 hits (i recorded an entire raid just after i got it and got the same result, 15k hits roughly 2% procs)
Even if this was only hits with the mace (its not, its all attacks) it defenitly wouldnt be 12 PPM, and i rarely see it procc more than once or twice on a boss.. I dont know exactly what the real ppm is but ill try to find out.
Here's spamming SS's and Slice n Dice every 32s vs Servant for exactly 10 Minutes:
Looking at something more like 2% rate for the Rod of the Sun King.
Or even 1.3 PPM.
Last edited by Dread : 06/13/07 at 2:31 PM.
Reason: New test
These shaman you talked to are wrong. There is no cooldown on the totem. The change was made to Windfury Weapon, people are just really confused about it. Just trust us on this one.
If it's not a cooldown then it's something else, I finally got a sneaky little shaman to plant a totem while I whacked some at one of the BL servants, ~10 minutes, all out standard SS spam, 88 procs, none below 1400 ms, two closest at 1407 and 1454 as only two below 1500 ms.
I then repeated it with two non-sword, slower, weapons with IP (20%) only on the MH and got 88 procs, nine below 1500 ms, seven of which were below 1200 ms, two or three at around 400 ms. (logs)
WF does indeed trigger from SS if anyone doubted it, and it seems that it also resets the swing timer (not PTR so don't know if the sword proc changes affects this).
6/9 12:12:26.984 You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
6/9 12:12:26.984 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 450.
6/9 12:12:26.984 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 590. <- reset
6/9 12:12:28.812 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 438. <- 1.828
6/9 12:12:30.906 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 512. <- 2.094
6/9 12:12:32.375 You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
6/9 12:12:32.375 Your Sinister Strike hits Servant of Allistarj for 655.
6/9 12:12:32.375 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 514. <- reset after 1469 ms
6/9 12:12:34.187 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 421. <- 1.812 from reset, 3281 ms from "real" MH swing.
6/9 12:12:36.234 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 419. <- 2.047
6/9 12:12:38.281 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 462. <- 2.047
6/9 12:12:40.265 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 498. <- 1.984
or
6/9 12:09:52.046 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 499. <- ~1.900 from previous
6/9 12:09:53.078 You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
6/9 12:09:53.078 Your Sinister Strike hits Servant of Allistarj for 607.
6/9 12:09:53.078 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 582. <- reset after 1032 ms
6/9 12:09:54.968 You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
6/9 12:09:54.984 You crit Servant of Allistarj for 1036. <- 1.906 from reset
6/9 12:09:54.984 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 596. <- reset
06/08/07, 7:16 PM
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