Elexyr

Site where I get the spreadsheet is down for me, why is this?

 

Tobb

So in your calculation is wep skill = .1% to hit versus .2%?

If gloves equal 3.8 wep skill and human = 5 wep skill, then 8.8 wep skill X .1% to hit =.88% instead of 8.8 wep skill X .2% = 1.76% to hit.

So I guess the main question is wep skill .1% to hit or .2% to hit?

Tobb

 

• Aldriana

Experimental data seems to say .1%. See posts 800 through 1000 or so for details.

 

Itzelsnitch

To calculate the average haste given, one could simply take the expected hits within a given time, for example 1k hits with a 2.0 speed weapon over 2.000 seconds, and compare it to the actual amount of hits made when using DFT. This skips the PPM part and simply converts it into a useful haste ratio.
The test would have to be done in several cases: Auto attack, and 3s/5e cycles (SS) and a similar 100% SnD uptime with daggers. Each result would be different, so each spec type will generally have its own value due to the different amount of hits made.
It would probably be needed to test with different weapon speeds too :o.

Seems like the only practical way to get that damn rating, but it would require lots of sample data - I haven't picked the trinket up yet (hope it drops tonight), so others would need to test this.

UPDATE!
I am running through different ProcWatch caps in the DST Analysis thread. Here's some results:

Autoattack:
3.8 spd weapon: 655/(38*60/3.8) = 1.09 = 9% more attacks = 9*10.5 ~= 95 haste rating
1.6 spd weapon: 1165/(28.5*60/1.6) = 1.09 = 9% more attacks = 9*10.5 ~= 95 haste rating

Aha! Same result! A preliminary conclusion would be, that when using autoattack, DST has an average value of 95 haste rating when doing autoattack.

Leaving the rest to someone with more time on their hand to calculate the average hits for specific cycles within a certain time and come with some results.

 

• Aldriana

Problem is, it's dependant on hit rating, other haste bonuses on gear, weapon skill, presence of set bonuses (T4 2/5 + 4/5, T5 4/5, T6 2/5) such that the number of different cases that would need to be analyzed is immense - you'd basically need to have every rogue do the test themself and plug it into the spreadsheet.

The right approach really is to figure out the proc rate on it, and then model the proc behavior in the spreadsheet; I did this in the Rogue Gear spreadsheet, although the proc rate there is just an estimate and could be off.

 

Itzelsnitch

DFT is currently modelled as a flat +haste value, which of course isn't viable, but as I said, then it's a point in the right direction. If it has an average haste of +9%, it would have a 29% uptime, which means 17.45 seconds/minute, which translates into a PPM of ~1.7!
Notice how Procwatch is giving the values 1 and 0.8 by simply counting the amount of procs, while leaving renewed buffs out, and comes up with such low values! And, notice again, how the exact same average haste (9%) on the two weapons results in such huge differences in the recorded and the actual PPM's.

Could we mathematically conclude a 1.7 procrate according to my calculations? Any flaws?

(God damn I'm good :P)

 

Jo

As I write this I'm sitting in Area 52 with 2700 arena points and but one question: why are my Mutilates hitting for $#%?

According to version 2.27c of the spreadsheet, with 'Boss mob defense?' enabled, my self-buffed Mutilates should average 1339 non-crit (cell B4, 'Unbuffed DPS' tab), 3080 crit (cell E4, 'Unbuffed DPS' tab). Arena buffed (Battleshout and Blessing of Kings), they should be averaging 1454 non-crit (cell B4, 'Buffed DPS' tab), 3345 crit (cell E4, 'Buffed DPS').

So why is it that, according to Fubar Top ScoreFu, my highest non-crit Mutilate in three months of arena matches was for 823, and my highest crit, 1681?

For 3000-3500 crits I'll grab a s2 Shanker, keep poisons up, stay behind my target, coordinate Expose Armor / Find Weakness / trinkets, and so on.

For a 1/6 chance at an 1800 crit on cloth, I'll take my chances with combat maces.

Can anyone account for the discrepancy?

 

Cyn

Because your fubar mod is recording records just for 1 hand.

Mutilate appears as two seperate attacks in the combat log for each hand, and most mods do not add them together

 

Cuddlypoo

In Shattered Halls tonight, I had 4 backstabs parried, 2 of them by Vorpil. I only got a screencap of one of them, but it definitely wasn't just one aberrant event. It's possible it's a result of my 150ms latency (if I recall properly, the parries occurred as I was strafing to get behind the mobs) which would seem to imply that there are two position checks made: one local check to determine whether to allow the backstab event (spend the energy, make the roll on the hit table) which then gets bumped up to the server, where a server-side position check is run to generate the proper hit table/results of the attack.

Any alternate theories on how this could have happened?

Has anybody else had this occur before or after today's patch?

 

feanor831

Explanation directly quoted from post from Ippon on WoW rogue forums :

The check for facing in order to backstab is client-side. If your PC thinks you can backstab, it lets you cast. Once the server recieves your request to backstab, it evaluates facing and resolves the attack. If your attack lands anywhere in your target's frontal arc, then they can dodge/parry/etc.
This can also occur when your hitboxes overlap. You can be in front of and behind someone at the same time, if you are "inside" them properly.

 

Cuddlypoo

I figured it was something like that. Sorry for the repeat information.

 

gama8901

While raiding last night I saw a "You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury", "Sword Spec", "Windfury". I didn't catch my combat log but if I am able to get a shaman to help me I'll parse my log to see if windfury can proc a sword spec and vice versa. Really hoping it does.

 

Urraca

Yeah, I was getting unbelievable chains last night. I'm 95% certain that Sword Specials can proc WF, not sure about the other direction though.

Also, is anyone's poison vial hitting harder? According to critline, I set 5 new max records with it last night (and no, none were on nature vulnerable mobs). My vial hit Morogrim for 464.

 

rj

I've been swords for awhile (well, since 2.1, heh). My damage last night in Gruuls lair was about the same as it's been since 2.1 came out. I was top dps by the same margins as I have been since switching to swords (I was top DPS before with Malch/Shiv combat daggers, but Spiteblade/Quickblade made it easier to stay on top since 2.1).

I do notice less combat potency procs since sword spec no longer procs CP though.

Overall, my dps seems about the same now as it did in 2.1 and 2.1.1 and yes I was running with an enhancement shaman all night in Gruuls and Mag's lair.

So, don't go freaking out cause you might see a weird chain.

 

ruyen

Same. Does it have the new Merciless gear, by the way?

 

Ellos

I've build new Mutilate cycle in this Sheet (Base is 2.2.7e). When I'm looking at the DPS it seems to looking good, but I don't know I made it right.

I've taken Avarage data so I became a cycle you should usually use.

http://www.savefile.com/files/825981

Because of Ruthlessness, Netherblade 4 Pieces and SealFate it was very difficult to build some cycle.
Take a look, I hope they are okay, but I'm not sure.

 

Soladoras

I hope this is an appropriate place to dump this request, but I'm looking for a mirrored version the Envenom vs. Eviscerate spreadsheet that used to be hosted at rogue.bleedo.net. I find it the simplest way to explain poison setups on MH and OH, as well as to explain how long it actually takes for DP to restack when I am speaking with someone that thinks their DP stack just "instantly" returns. I regrettably deleted my own copy and cannot seem to find another. Any help at all would be appreciated.

 

sulfin

On a boss fight, i usually do higher dps than the other rogues, but on trash they do more.

What type of cycles do you use on trash?

 

Urraca

Hmm, looking at some WWS stats from last night, it seems the proc % has decreased. So maybe they ninja increased the damage slightly, but toned down the proc rate?

I used to get 1.2%+ (with glad slicer), but last night on morogrim, it was a solid 1% for a non-stop 9 minute fight.

Just fyi, I managed 1200 DPS on him with the new sword spec, and the sick part is that my OH sword broke so I had to use a gladiator's shiv.

too verify the ninja'd proc rate, wws link here:

http://www.terminusguild.net/wowstat...im/saitel.html

 

naxro

Hey, I am soon going combat daggers with the new arena weapons and I had a few questions (always been swords/fists/mutilate/hemo all the time ive played my rogue, and have always been very near my optimum damage with combat and mutilate for the particular boss).
1.) The spreadsheet says my optimum cycle is 3s/5s/5r, this is simple enough but what do you do to maximize damage when u get say, excessive energy procs? Say you finish out 5 combo points early when energy will spill over 100 waiting for slice and dice to run out (especially with netherblade bonus), is it best to rupture early and start into the optimum cycle again? With say, only one combo point slice and dice what is the best cycle to go into ideally?
2.)
In the same spirit as question one, how heavily does combat daggers rely on ruthlessness and relentless strikes procing, along with combat potency to keep up a cycle? Will this potential problem be mitigated in part by the netherblade bonus?
3.)
In your experience, how does combat daggers fare in arena? I found combat fists to be fine as positioning was not a problem, but adrenaline rush with daggers is easily wasted with hamstring + max range ms warrior beating on you and the like... are things like this often a problem? (pls only answer if you have heavy arena experience)

Thanks for your time, this is an awesome, knowledgeable community (so far the only one I've seen when it comes to rogues).

 

Urraca

Comparing logs from last week to this week, I seemed to jumped to conclusions and pre-patch WWS give me 1% too. I'll have to check an actual ingame DM for a more precise personal assessment of it.

However, I think the resist rate has been increased now. The last 2 weeks (before this one) we killed hydross, I had a 5.x% resist rate. This week the resist rate shot up to 24%+.

 

naxro

Question:
I plug in a pve mutilate build, and use double merciless gladiator's shankers, both with mongoose and with instant on the mainhand and deadly on the offhand. With this build, 5 deadly poison never gets even close to ticking off/having to reapply. When i switch the offhand shanker to the shiv, the dps goes very slightly up, with the same poison and enchant setup.

How is this possible if the lower speed weapon should be doing more damage from mutilate, and equal damage outside of mutilate? The only factor i can think of is higher poison procs, but with deadly on the offhand constantly at 5 charges, that can't be it, and they are very very close in damage dealt, so what am i missing?

 

Grunge

This should hold a few answers.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

• Aldriana

None of the points raised in that link apply. Last I checked, this spreadsheet uses Evis rather than Evenom as a finisher, so the restack isn't a problem, and the rest of the argument is simply that a fast OH doesn't hurt your OH damage very much - which is true, but doesn't explain why Naxro is doing more damage with a faster OH. It shouldn't necessarily be much lower, but it should be a bit lower.

The final point, re: stats from that link is in general true, but the weapons being compared in this case have the same stats.

So: while it's true in general that the speed of the OH is not as crucial for Mutilate, it is true that the damage done should go down slightly with a faster weapon, if my understanding of the mechanics of this sheet are correct. The fact that it does not sounds like a bug, to me.

 

Cyn

With my gear, i do not observe the same effect, shanker does more damage than shiv in the offhand.

My theories for what you've noticed are either
A) you have MHDP,OHIP combo contrary to what you said
B) your hit is terrible, and despite you not observing it happening, the spreadsheet is modeling the small chance it has to drop off