Ha! I see... wow I feel dumb. Thanks again.

Thanks for the tip. Should've looked through the last pages in the first place.

I've tried to model envenom into the Spreadsheet:
http://www.savefile.com/files/830406

I hope the cycle worked well, maybe they should get another Name, put I have no idea how.
When they aren't good, take the old Spreadhsheet with the 4CP+ Cycle.

Now I want to take some recap data to compare this with my cycle if their working correct. For now I wonder that I've so less finisher.

I also changed the Procrate of the nightblade. I think I've read here that the procrate is changed to around 6,5%.

Had made a littly mistake.
http://www.savefile.com/files/830821
fix

2.2.7h http://www.savefile.com/files/830919

Ellos 2.2.7g incl. my 2.2.7f changes


2.2.7h (mih)
added
Shadowmaster's Boots
Darkmoon Card: Crusade (120ap)
Expose Weakness to Raidbuffs
Hit/Miss display @ Talents/Gear_Buffs

fixed
Fool's Bane 24 stamina -> crit
Mace spec @ Talents

changed
Madness of the Betrayer 2ppm
Dragonspine Trophy 1,7ppm

2.2.7.g (ellos)
changed
Build envenom cycle for Mutilate

changed
Changed The Nightblade Procrate to 6,5%

2.2.7.f (ellos)
changed
Build other Mutilate cycle

Just wondering: isnt there an easy way to implement an "import" of old Talent- and Gear-Settings from one Sheet to the next?

I love to use the sheets, but it's quite tiresome to reset every gear-item and talent-spec every time there is a new version of the sheet.

Thanks!

I've had the [Vindicator's Brand] since I hit 70, and have been combat swords since with the [Latro's Shifting Sword] on my offhand since the beggining of time as well.

Tonight, unfortunately, [Spiteblade] still refuses to drop, however, [Malchazeen] did, and it defaulted to me.

I ran it through the spreadsheet and the other gear spreedshet, and I see almost a 20dps drop when switching to [Malchazeen] and [Searing Sunblade] as my OH. Now hold on, before you jump on me, I *did* change the talent spec. Picked up Dagger Specialization, Opportunity, and Improved Backstab.

So, given that, the question ultimately is -- why? I always thought the damage potential of combat daggers was more than swords, the only non number-crunching advantage that swords had was the absence of dependence on positioning -- but however, Backstab should theoretically have a better damage/energy ratio.

And aside from that, Zeen vs Vindy is already a +10dps on the tooltip dps and it has better stats. What gives?

I've also noticed this. I wanted to briefly compare specs assuming all gladiator weapons, and to my great surprise, combat daggers was below fists and swords by a noticeable margin. Now while I have no intentions of ever going daggers again, I found this odd. I hate the positioning factor using daggers, but I thought that higher dps would come at that kind of price.

I fully trust the spreadsheet and the work put into it, so if I had to guess I would say Windfury was what would push the slower fists / swords over the edge.

Even so, in the past the combat daggers specs (15/41/5) have been 50+ dps, sometimes upwards of 100 dps more than my swords/fists (17/44 or 20/41) builds and gear, so I am still left curious of what might have changed.

yeah it appears to be down for me as well. Would anyone have a link to this in a different location?

The sheet still being updated by a few guys and it's new versions are being posted all over this thread. You have to keep reading it, if you want to have the newest version all the time.

The last update is just a few posts above you, in post #2305.

Yeah, now that we alliance get the magic that is Windfury, Combat Daggers loses it's appeal drastically, due very much to what you said: it sucks everywhere but raiding, and now it's not as good in raiding either.

There are 3 big things that favor combat swords vs. combat daggers:

1: More non-SnD finisher damage due to better CP generation, and especially good cycles with 2pc T4
2: More windfury damage due to ~50% more instant attacks, not to mention that the sword's WF hits are bigger (this only matters for instants, since WF is a flat % chance to proc, so autoattack proc'd WFs *should* even out with more frequent, but smaller hits for daggers)
3: Sword spec no longer resets the swing timer, and OH procs are MH swings, making it clearly better than 5 crit from dagger spec.

For daggers to outweigh those 3 things, backstab needs to have significantly higher DPE than sinister strike. Off the top of my head, I don't know how they compare, but I seem to recall that the last time I crunched it they were pretty close.

One other thing that may have held swords back previously (if you only compared gladiator weapons) is that Latros was the *only* good offhand for it. Gladiator offhands were too slow before they were changed to 1.5.

http://roguesheet.ro.funpic.de/
I've made a quick page for the current Spreadsheet. I hope I take the link up-to-date, so there is a point were to find the current version.

Maybe I can build in a Password protected Area to update the link.

Sorry for the spam on the site, but I havn't found a better host than this.

1. Combat daggers do more damage generating their cp's, and all specs can more easily keep better cycles from 2pc T4(Combat mutilate being the clear winner from my own experience).
2. Combat daggers MH hits ~44% more often then the regular sword MH and no, biggar numbers doesn't automatically equal more damage.
3. 5 crit also affect the wf proc'd extra attacks done with extra attack power.

Both specs are very close in damage in the hands of a competent rogue, but combat daggers is crap outside of raids.

1. But would you deny that combat swords have more non-SnD finisher damage than combat daggers?

2. No offense, but did you read what I said? I addressed the speed difference for autoattack, which does not matter. The windfury difference only lies between procs off BS and SS. Autoattack WF procs should be relatively even (with equal gear), but SS with a sword produces both larger and more frequent WF procs than BS. This may only be a subset of your WF procs, but it is an advantage nonetheless.

3. I did not take the crit on WF procs into account. You've got me there, but I'm not convinced it makes 5 crit on both hands better than 5% on both hands to proc a big MH sword swing that can proc other proc effects you may have (dragonspine probably being the most important).

I agree both specs are good. I agree a good rogue will do a lot of damage with either, and that the difference is likely not earth-shattering, but the advantage lies with swords both inside and outside of a raid instance. That said, armory me. I'm combat daggers, and I'm still passing on the next Talon of Azshara, because someone else needs it more.

I'll concede that BS may do higher DPE than SS, but is it enough? I took a quick look at a few WWS parses and compared my average backstab (Malch) to our sword rogue's average SS (Talon of Azshara). Keep in mind that my gear is better than his, so the results may be skewed in favor of backstab:

Fight 1:
My BS = 1385, 23.08 DPE
His SS = 847, 21.175 DPE
DPE advantage: dagger by 1.91

Fight 2:
My BS = 1534, 25.57 DPE
His SS = 858, 21.45 DPE
DPE advantage: dagger by 4.12

Fight 3:
My BS = 1654, 27.57 DPE
His SS = 958, 23.95 DPE
DPE advantage: dagger by 3.62

There is an advantage for daggers here, but how big is it?

Just had a quick question. I entered all my gear/talents and got a buffed dps total of 1170. However, according to damagemeters/recap I avrage around 600, much closer to my unbuffed total. I'm following the cycles and everything, is the reason for this discrepancy my mods, the spreadsheet, or just me?

No, I haven't, but the spreadsheet does Somewhere a few posts up, somebody asked why swords were so good. I just listed a few of their strong points. I didn't mean to start a huge sword vs. dagger debate, because the math has already been done, and there's really not much left to debate.

It's important to remember that the DPS totals reported in the spreadsheet are for perpetual combat Patchwerk-style encounters where you're going to have 100% time on the mob. In TBC, encounters like this do not exist, so your actual numbers will be lower than what appears on the sheet.

A few questions for you:
1. Do you have the most recent version of the spreadsheet? Armor values in the more recent versions have been increased to be a bit closer to what mobs in BC actually have.
2. Did you actually have all of the buffs that you entered into the spreadsheet? (Make sure you don't have both WF and GoA checked at the same time, no other potions while using a flask, only 1 battle elixir, etc.)
3. What encounter were you using for a basis of comparisson? A fight with adds/agro resets/fights where there will be periods of time where you can't DPS the boss/trash mobs?

It would be constructive to discuss how to even the playing field or re-establish daggers slight advantage without nerfing swords. The spec that sacrifices more to for PvE should atleast be equal in terms of raw dps if not slightly ahead.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. This was specifically from Prince, but I was getting similar numbers on fights like Attumen.

I understand that I'd lose quite a bit of dps from switching to adds and whatnot, but it just seemed like a huge loss. Thanks for your input though.

One thing to note is that DamageMeters (not sure about recap), especially when synched, tend to have lower dps numbers because they start counting from when the raid enters combat and don't stop until the whole raid leaves combat. If you can, instead take a look at WWS Logs, which calculates your individual dps based on the time you spent actually dpsing. While these numbers will be lower than the expected ones because of moving around and such, they'll probably be closer to what the spreadsheet estimates than DamageMeters/Recap