I guess another problem is that I can usually get away with a sinister strike earlier than a backstab on a trash mob the tank just picked up
ah, screw it, maybe after I spec back from pvp next week I'll just put points in that +6% sinister strike talent and a couple points in fist spec instead of endurance/imp sprint/etc
Main thing is a hopefully working quickfix for OO.
Just added a Column. I Think this is the easiest way and everybody can scale it to that size which is needed.
I'm currently combat swords, using Talon and Latro's, around 1930 AP, 224 hit (in char window), and ~23.5% crit. It works out very well, I'm debating though if a combat/hemo build would perhaps add some versatility (survivability, adding greater "burst" potential with 2x AR) but still be able to retain much of the damage potential of combat/assassination specs.
Here's my thought.
Do not use only CP rotations, but also CP generation rotations. So In a typical 1s/5r rotation that's pretty common when using combat swords you might do something like Hemo, SnD, SS, SS, Hemo, SS, SS, Rup, etc. The point would be to keep the Hemo debuff up as much as possible as well as keeping SnD and Rup up. All other energy would go towards SS as with my current gear it his harder.
There are several problems with modeling and comparing this spec to "standard" specs though.
First the Sub tree relies on openers much more than any other tree, so to make this effective in raiding you would have to use your openers and vanish to gain extra openers at every opportunity. Openers aren't modeled (as far as I've seen) anywhere.
The second challenge is modeling CP generation rotations that use something other than simply SS, BS, Hemo, or Muti for their CP generation. Throw in that an "optimal" rotation including GS could be erratic and perhaps fairly long (spanning at least 20 seconds).
Lastly, the problems introduced by throwing prep into the mix. You would get further DPS bonuses from prep such as extra AR and extra vanish (which equals an extra opener) but again on a fairly long period...10m prep cooldown.
Has anyone tried a spec like this? If so what were the results? Has anyone tried modeling this sort of behaviour of CP generation?
I was a long time swords fan. I always liked the look of swords, and had a blast playing Hemo for PVP way back in the day, and then ended up speccing Combat Swords for BWL, AQ40 and such. Come TBC I again specced to Hemo for leveling, and got to 70, started gearing up and Specced to Combat again for Karazhan. I could never get a sword to drop. I ended up getting Malchazeen and buying the Arena s1 off hand dagger, and life was good.
Now come S2, I rushed out and bought the s2 daggers. I am not happy. I can barely keep ahead of our two Fist/Sword rogues. On Hydross I avarage about .2 to .4 ahead of one of them. This is very disapointing to me, as I have decently better gear, and weapons. Is it just that combat swords and fists are that much better than daggers now, am I doing some thing wrong? I used the sheet and it told me to use the standard 3s/5s/5r(e) rotation. On our latest Hydross attempts (and trash) we where both flasked and had full pally buffs and food.
I confess that I haven't actually tried such a build, but from a theorycraft perspective it seems weak.
1) Rotating SS and Hemo doesn't really make sense, because while SS may do more damage, it needs to do almost 15% more damage than Hemo to be worth using due to the higher energy cost. As an off-the-cuff estimate it looks to me like you're right around that 15% mark, so the extra combo point generation means Hemo should still be preferable - and raid buffs will help Hemo more than SS (since Hemo is not normalized, it scales better with AP than SS does).
2) The lack of Relentless Strikes away a lot of the advantage you got from speccing Hemo in the first place. Relentless Strikes effectively reduces the cost of all your combo point generating moves by 5, so you're basically getting 35 energy Hemos instead of 35 energy Sinister Strikes, which is a straight loss.
So, it seems to me that you're giving away a point of combat potency, Surprise Attacks, 5% crit, 30% crit damage, a couple other points (Murder/Imp Evis/Poison Talents/whatever, depending on your preference.), and some damage on each instant attack (due to Hemo instead of SS) relative to cookiecutter combat swords, and all you're really getting in return is prep, serrated blades, and the hemo debuff. My instincts say that that's not a good trade for PvE.
Now, your build might have a bit more PvP utility and from that perspective might make an interesting hybrid, but from a strictly damage proposition I'm pretty confident that it loses.
I made a version of the sheet with the new Relentless Earthstorm Diamond formula from here and here based off of 2.3.0d.
Also, 2.3.0d broke nextstat and the other scripts so I fixed those.
I've named it 2.3.0e and put it up, but I don't have access to the page it's normally hosted on, so it's not official or anything unless whoever's in charge wants to put it up there.
My apologies if this question has already been answered but I couldn't find a definitive answer myself.
I've played Combat Daggers ever since the days of Ragnaros, but I'm wondering if anyone could say whether the recent changes to combat swords has had a significant effect on that specs DPS, i.e. from real raid experience, does a Sword spec out DPS Daggers now. I'm pondering whether to purchase the Merciless Swords or Daggers, always have WF in raids etc. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Does anyone know if there exist a cap in the amount of haste one can receive? I know exaclty how haste works, that rating is additive and % haste adds Multiplicative as well as how to calculate new weapon speed. But how low can that weapon speed go? Or how much % haste gain can one receive? Does there exist a cap somewhere? Or can you bring your weapons speed down to close as 0 as possible?
Last edited by feanor831 : 06/29/07 at 4:02 PM.
Reason: grammer
I made a version of the sheet with the new Relentless Earthstorm Diamond formula from here and here based off of 2.3.0d.
Also, 2.3.0d broke nextstat and the other scripts so I fixed those.
I've named it 2.3.0e and put it up, but I don't have access to the page it's normally hosted on, so it's not official or anything unless whoever's in charge wants to put it up there.
According to the spreadsheet Relentless Earthstorm Diamond is now better than Thundering Skyfire Diamond. Do you really think the R.E.D. formula you changed to is correct?
I've been noticing a relatively low proc rate on the T.S.D. effect lately, like 0.6 or so. This is with Combat Daggers in a raid. That R.E.D. looks attractive...
On the spreadsheet thundering is still better than relentless for me. It's like a 1 ppm with a 40 sec internal CD. Haste scales better so maybe it just depends on what stats you got atm.
My apologies if this question has already been answered but I couldn't find a definitive answer myself.
I've played Combat Daggers ever since the days of Ragnaros, but I'm wondering if anyone could say whether the recent changes to combat swords has had a significant effect on that specs DPS, i.e. from real raid experience, does a Sword spec out DPS Daggers now. I'm pondering whether to purchase the Merciless Swords or Daggers, always have WF in raids etc. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Swords are considerably more dps than daggers at the moment in a fully raid buffed situation.
Swordspec is pretty obviously best by a wide margin - it's completely free of the somewhat diminishing returns that raw crit ends up eating(the better your gear, the less benefit you get from dagger or fist spec) and can proc Windfury(which is rather important - I wish I had the fun screenshot Zerix showed me yesterday of him getting 5 attacks out of one swing) and poisons.
I'm wondering whether the superiority of swords over fists has been overstated. I'm seeing virtually identical numbers using the most recent version of the spreadsheet (2.3.0.e), and what little difference there is seems attributable to gear. For instance, with my T4-level gear (no +skill gear) and cookie-cutter combat build, there is a non-trivial dps difference between S2 swords and fists, but that is reduced to zero if the stats of the fist OH were the same as the sword OH. In other words, with my gear, there is no difference between the two that cannot be attributable to the weapons themselves. (For practical purposes, using the S1 fist OH instead of the S2 fist OH reduces the advantage to about .8%, and using the S2 shiv OH reduces it to about .3%--a difference of about 3 damage every 1000). I realize that windfury is not properly modeled in the spreadsheet and that some gear favors one build more than others, but is it possible that the advantage of swords (at least compared to fists) has been overstated? With my gear, anyway, it just isn't there. Thanks in advance for any clarification.
I've found my fist MH sword OH duel-spec brutally effective so far, the sword spec in this context seems to contribute about 1/3-1/2 the damage of windfury (and of course it can proc windfury too), as well as 5% crit on specials, MH attacks and sword spec procs.
Does anyone know if there exist a cap in the amount of haste one can receive? I know exaclty how haste works, that rating is additive and % haste adds Multiplicative as well as how to calculate new weapon speed. But how low can that weapon speed go? Or how much % haste gain can one receive? Does there exist a cap somewhere? Or can you bring your weapons speed down to close as 0 as possible?
I think I read somewhere that the lowest you could get to 0 was .5 (with a fast weapon), but I could be imagining things. I saw a screen where a Shaman with Abacus, T2 (?) BS mace, Blood Lust, Flurry; haste was 460 (1.09/.73 MH/OH). If I can find the screen I'll post it. I would assume that haste is capped at 75%, like quite a few other things are.
EDIT:
EDIT2:
With the addition of Warglaives into the game, a Rogue could easily get close to 75% with BF, SnD, Abacus, DST, and BL.
i've had my gladiator's shiv at 0.42 speed with snd, bf, abacus, bl, haste pot and 1x mongoose. i'll post a screen when photobucket stops being rubbish.
i got tired reading threw the 97 pages of post, so plz forgive me if it has been asked. but why does the item compare only have 1 ring slot and 1 trinket slot? or am i missing something?
The lowest offhand speed that I've seen was .29 on a 1.5 speed weapon. I had the buff from the humanoids in Hyjal(100% increased attack speed), slice and dice, heroism, haste potion and I think blade flurry. I may have had more buffs than that, as I have the thundering skyfire meta and a dragonspine, but I don't believe they were up at the time.
I have a .40 screenshotted if anyone cares (hyjal buff, SnD, drums and one mongoose proc)
I am almost sure that the calculations for relentles earthstorm diamond are completely wrong. I have 5/5 lethality. First test is done without gem, the second with gem. Identical AP in both cases and Dirk as main hand weapon. And i got an 2.6% increase in critical sinister strike.
Here are my tests:
Dirk sinister - 1628ap - ~635,053
6/29 07:43:58.140 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 634.
6/29 07:44:03.390 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 635.
6/29 07:44:11.421 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 636.
6/29 07:44:17.750 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 633.
6/29 07:44:21.078 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 635.
6/29 07:45:02.109 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 633.
6/29 07:45:10.562 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 637.
6/29 07:45:12.578 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 635.
6/29 07:45:49.484 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 636.
6/29 07:45:58.031 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 635.
6/29 07:46:13.218 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 633.
6/29 07:46:21.265 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 637.
6/29 07:46:37.375 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 634.
6/29 07:46:41.906 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 637.
6/29 07:47:20.015 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 633.
6/29 07:47:29.968 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 637.
6/29 07:47:37.718 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 636.
6/29 07:48:21.781 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 635.
6/29 07:48:25.406 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 635.
Dirk sinister (GEM) - 1628ap - ~651,857
6/30 09:38:49.980 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 652.
6/30 09:38:55.964 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 651.
6/30 09:39:09.527 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 652.
6/30 09:39:16.855 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 654.
6/30 09:39:32.058 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 651.
6/30 09:40:27.839 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 651.
6/30 09:40:58.277 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 652.
6/30 09:41:02.292 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 654.
6/30 09:41:24.058 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 651.
6/30 09:41:38.386 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 650.
6/30 09:41:50.074 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 652.
6/30 09:41:58.167 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 650.
6/30 09:42:03.761 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 652.
6/30 09:42:10.433 Your Sinister Strike crits Servant of Razelikh for 654.
06/28/07, 2:14 PM
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