feanor831

Haste does decrease weapon speed and displyas that on tooltip, but as description, it actually increases the number of attacks in a given period. That can go up as high as the amount of haste you can stack I think. Don't think there is a cap or whether all the haste options in the game can confirm it.

But would be quite nice if one can confirm if a cap has ever been reached or not.

 

mih

i take that shot 2month ago with vindicator's brand/latros. +2mongoose+DST+abacus (instead of kiss)+2piece T6+some haste items it will be great =)

 

Davram

Has anyone made or tested the Swiftstrike Shoulders? I don't see it in any of the spreadsheets (though looking through them all is beyond me), and I've never even seen a screenshot of it to confirm that someone has worn them.

I ask because right now my guild is entering SSC/TK and I'm wearing the Bladed Shoulders of the Merciless, and wondering if the stat decrease from Swiftstrike is trumped by the haste effect it gives. I think it comes out to something like 3.6% haste, which is minimal, but also passive.

Here's the item I'm referring to btw. http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32747

I ask mainly because a guild is selling the pattern on my server, and wondering if I should scoop it up and see if I can't buy the 2 Hearts of Darkness from them as well. Getting items made for resist gear is a long shot I know, but worth a shot if these are worth it.

 

songster

How on Earth do you take these shots, do you have a mod to automate it? There's no way in Hell I'd be able to keep an eye on all the procs simultaneously, and then pop up the character window and take a screenshot before one or the other wore off...

 

mih

open char screen, activate trinket/drink haste pot, take screenshot :P

 

songster

... and conveniently ensure dual Mongoose is procced, and that someone else casts Bloodlust while all your effects are active? :P

Seriously though, it'd be nice for research as much as for e-peen to have something that automatically snapped a screenshot of your character screen when you hit a new haste record. Is that possible with the current UI restrictions? I know some of the damage meter mods used to take screenshots for new record crits.

 

winst

it's just kinda luck, when i notice everything is proccing i flip open the char sheet and take a quick screen :]

here is the full version :



i'm missing a second mongoose, drums, and a dragonspine (if i had one) proc for easily obtainable haste gains. with ~10% passive haste from BT/Hyjal items, t6 bonus on snd, and illidan blades, haste can really be reaching insane levels

 

Rethan

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...79164781&sid=1

Last page of this thread has a troll reaching 692% haste or some such. Perhaps that will answer questions on haste stacking.

 

Xaoc

So I am officially retracting my statement about haste capping out.

Thinking about it more thoroughly, there is no limit to what your rating could be, but there is a limit to how close to 0 you can get. I dont know why I didnt think of this earlier, but with the change to haste being multiplicative, and not additive, you will never reach a 0 attack speed. Its basically an exponential decrease down from whatever the base speeds are, getting closer and closer to 0, without ever reaching it.

Obviously, the first few times you add haste are more beneficial (read have greater impacts) than later applications, but no matter how much haste you can stack, you will never reach a 0 attack speed. Mathematically, the closest you will get is .0~1 (0 repeating infinitely). I would assume that the game stop calculating this at some point, and will stop it at .1. I guess someone could go out and try to grab a Searing Sunblade (1.3 spd) and see how close to .1 they could get.

 

Iquark

I use them, and the reasoning behind losing the stats is simple. There comes a point in TK/BT/Hyjal where you start lose all that hit you had up till then, it's where the massive amounts of crit and AP will overwhelm the loss of a couple percent of hit.

Haste as has been mentioned is the highest dps stat a Rogue can get now a days with proper raiding gear, and to a point, the static haste values on a number of BT/Hyjal items make them the best pieces you can get. However, you still don't want to go too low on your hit rating to make up for it.

Haste is effective if you're actually going to hit those mobs with those extra attacks, otherwise it does nothing! I guess the moral of my post is that in moderation a couple +haste items from Hyjal/BT can be the best gear you can wear, however there comes a point where you sacrifice too much hit and the haste loses it's value. Use judgement as to where your hit falls to, and assuming Aldriana's spreadsheet is correct, you'll probably only use 2 or maybe 3 haste pieces on all your gear.

By the way, I went to the Swiftstrike shoulders, and have been extremely happy with them. For now this will be enough static haste for me till I get the 2 pc Slayer's bonus then I'll be able to evaluate the +hit vs +haste from that point of view.

PS: If the guild you are buying the pattern from is progressing fast, you may find it hard to take buy Heart of Darkness off of them. I'm an officer and it was hard to convince my GM that I should get the Hearts for mine as Mother is looming a ways off!

 

r3d3

Actually, mathematically, 0.000...1 is equal to 0 if the 0 repeats infinitely (ie, there will never be a 1 on the end).

Anyways, I'm pretty sure that the game calculates your actual weapon speeds to much more than 2 decimal places (otherwise gonig from 0.02 to 0.01 speed would be a huge difference, but going from 0.015 to 0.014 wouldn't). Besides, the amount of haste required to get a weapon down to less than 0.005 (ie, it would show up as 0.00 in the character sheet) would be ridiculous, even on a 1.3 speed weapon.

0.005/1.3 = 26000% haste.

 

paper

So, no second thoughts about the new relentles earthstorm diamond formula or am I reading something wrong ?


Based upon this and this it's supposed to be +7.8%, but it's actually ~3% as stated on gem and resulted in my tests here.

 

bundy

it seems the link is not working. Anyone got problems downloading the spreadsheet?

 

LiteSabre

I'm actually curious about the TSD vs RED meta gem thing. I'm nearly hit capped with ~32% crit unbuffed, and both the DPS spreadsheet here and Aldriana's gear sheet give me nearly equal numbers for the two gems. On a pure comparison, the TSD is better, but if I take out the two shifting nightseyes that the gem forces me to socket and replace them with something better, then the sheet gives me even or slightly better numbers for the RED.

Edit: Bleah, ignore this. For some reason I'd thought that the requirement for RED was 2 reds and a yellow, not 2 of every color.

Still, though, some tests seem to indicate that the RED gives more than a 3% crit increase, while others do not. Anyone got a conclusive answer?

 

Mo

It's a 3% increase in total critical strike damage, which isn't the same thing as lethality's increase in critical strike bonus. The 7.8% figure is when you convert the total crit % increase to a crit bonus increase number, comparable to lethality. It was implemented before in the spreadsheet as a 3% critical strike bonus, or a 1.3% increase in total crit damage, fyi.

Anyway, some math. Using your numbers there, your normal SS hit will be ~276 (635 / 2.3). From there, you can either look at the gem doing:

final 3% method
(276 * 2.3) * 1.03 ~= 654
or
7.8% crit bonus method (similar to what's in 2.3.0e)
276 * 2.378 ~= 655.

Which matches your test pretty closely, if a bit high. It may be slightly off but it's certainly not "completely wrong".

Actually, if it is implemented in-game by multiplying the final result by 3%, then the crit bonus conversion with lethality would be 6.9%, not 7.8%, but the current 7.8% critical strike bonus implementation isn't far off at worst. 7.8% comes from the calculation method in that thread, which was something like:

1 + (((2 * 1.03) - 1) * 1.3) = 2.378
then
2.378-2.3 = .078 = 7.8%

where 6.9% would be from the much simpler formula:

2.3*1.03 = 2.369
then
2.369-2.3 = .069 = 6.9%

I haven't done any testing in-game myself, I just implemented what seemed to be the accepted conclusion from the threads on the topic, and it's certainly more accurate than the 3% critical strike bonus it was implemented as before.

If the consensus is to switch to a final 3% multiplication that'd be easy enough. I'm actually leaning in that direction myself, as the calculation from that forum post seems needlessly complicated.


edit: cleaned up and clarified some stuff

Also, thought of a way to explain if it is 2.6% total crit increase as your data implies, when used with lethality:
Take a standard 2.0 multiplier crit to start, 2.0 * 1.03 = 2.06. Then, add lethality instead of multiplying, leaving a final crit multiplier of 2.36, which is exactly 2.6% more total damage than when using 2.3. It's another possibility, anyway. It does directly contradict the conclusion of the threads on the topic though, that the gem's bonus is multiplied by crit bonus talents.

 

• Vulajin

I'm in a situation right now where I'd like to be swords, but I'm stuck as daggers due to weapon drop luck (Malchazeens drop like candy for us, but we've never seen a Spiteblade and don't kill Morogrim yet for the Talon). However, I'm starting to wonder whether I should stick with daggers either way. Considering the rate at which I earn arena points, it's essentially out of the question to pick up a Gladiator's Slicer; thus, my only option for a main hand sword is Edge of the Cosmos. Tomorrow I will have enough arena points for one offhand weapon. So my choices right now are:

1) Keep the Malch, pick up a Gladiator's Shiv and commit to daggers for the foreseeable future.
2) Keep the Malch, but pick up the Slicer, hedging on the possibility of getting a sword soon.
3) Get an Edge, pick up the Slicer, go swords right now.

Long story short, I plugged all three potential weapon combinations into the spreadsheet (version: 2.2.7h), with the appropriate respective builds and all of my current gear (as you can find in my Armory profile). I came up with the following DPS numbers:

(Unbuffed / Buffed DPS)
642.25 / 1219.82 <-- Malchazeen / Merciless Gladiator's Shiv (combat daggers)
629.47 / 1199.22 <-- Malchazeen / Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade (combat daggers)
624.40 / 1244.29 <-- Edge of the Cosmos / Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade (combat swords)

So there are two real questions here. The first is, are those numbers really sane? Would I really do more buffed DPS using the Edge of the Cosmos just because of the synergy of Windfury and sword spec? And the second is, would it be worthwhile to submit to my lack of patience and pick up the Quickblade and an Edge and respec immediately, or should I get the Shiv and just wait to see if I get a Spiteblade or Talon before even considering the Quickblade? Note that I fully commit to PvE DPS, and wouldn't have considered downgrading from a Malch to Edge of the Cosmos until I saw this result. Thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

 

Grunge

Yes, those numbers look rather realistic to me. Swordspec change and the synergy with WF make swords really superior to every other spec at the moment. I for one am expecting a nerf sooner or later (or a buff to the other specs, but I'm not hoping for much).

I'd suggest going for either waiting for Spiteblade or Talon and get the offhand sword now (or just save the points) and use Searing Sunblade in the offhand.
The .2 (or .1 if you decide on the shiv) speed difference should be able to make up for the dps difference, although consult the spreadsheet first.

Edit:

On another note. I was playing around with talents and happened to set Find Weakness to 0/5 (no other talent changes, currently mutilate) and I noticed a +1dps increase in both buffed and unbuffed dps.
Working as intended?

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

Ellos

No, I've to add find Weakness different in the cycle. Had make a fault.

In the normal cycle I've forget find weakness complet. And in the Mutilate cycle find weakness is calc to the cycle DPS but not to the single Attack.

Will fix it in the next Version. Hope I can make an update this week.

At the moment I only look for error's and take them at a ToDo list. They're now around 10 thinks which I have to look at.

 

Zurgat

Does the spreadsheet keep in mind the +hit cap?
To nullify the base 24% miss rate from dual wielding you need: 19%+5% from talents. (Though the +5 is never shown on the character sheet for reasons only blizzard can tell)
Baiscally the +hit cap most combat rogues will notice is 300,2 rating. (+79 if you lack the talent)

-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.

 

Ellos

Of course.

Test it, make a Item with 300 Hitrating. Look at the DPS and than take a item with 400 Hitrating.
Nothing will change (when there is no bug).

By the way, Bossmiss is at 25,5%. There were some test which had proven that with 24,6% you still have some miss.

 

Anddacin

The hitcap is actually closer to 309 with weapon expertise and precision, as mentioned above.

 

Zurgat

Wouldn't it be lower then? (like 294 instead of 302)
Since weapon expertise raises your skill by 10, and thus increases your hit rating as a side effect.
I didn't include the +79 into that 302. it would be 381 without talents. So, how much +hit rating would equate to 10 weapon skill?

-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.

 

koaschten

Well, testing lead to the assumption that 1 weapon SKILL point is equal to 0.1%+ hit, but nowhere close to the 2% which gets repeatedly quoted in that blue post

edit: removed some wrong numbers, read the next post

 

◊ Sarutobi

The hit cap w/ Precision and Weapon Expertise is 307.515 (308 for all practical purposes)

Base Miss rate of 25.5 - 5 (Precision) - 1 (Weapon Expertise) = 19.5 * 15.77 = 307.515

Without WEx it would be 323.285.

Without WEx or Precision it would be 402.135.

 

thingol

I don't mean to get too off topic from the Spreadsheet but, this doesn't seem worth its own thread.

What do you think can be done to bring Dagger Raid DPS back up to at least even with combat swords?

Recently as a dagger rogue it almost feels like I am the rogue version of an MS warrior. This isn't really a complaint about my lack of dps. (Can still beat anyone other than our sword rogue consistently) But daggers are not better than swords for PvP either. If anything its Maces for PvP, Swords for PvE and Daggers for being second best at everything.

So what can Blizz do to make Daggers viable again? Somehow the DPE of Mutilate or Backstab needs to be improved.

http://armory.mmo-champion.com.nyud....t&s5=Dodge&v=2