Decided that since I had the first post I'd go ahead and work on a summary. I will be going through the thread and linking/quoting the various things that we have worked out over the last few months. Feel free to PM me if I miss something.

Base Stats at 70: Relevant Racials: Stat/Rating Conversions at 70:

The actual value used for all stat conversions is what is listed in your character sheet - 10. I have no idea why this is the case, but 10 of all your stats are ignored.

Agility - Your base agility (per the above table) converts to crit at a 63.3:1 ratio. Agility gained from buffs and gear converts to crit at a 40:1 ratio. Each point of agility provides 1 point of ranged attack power.

Crit Rating - Converts to crit at 22.1:1

Hit Rating - Converts to hit at 15.8:1

Hit rating / miss chance:
-The base miss chance against an even level opponent is 5.6%.
-For ranged attacks this increases by 1% for each level higher your target is (8.6% against a lvl 73 or skull mob)
-Some mobs have a higher defense rating which seems to affect these percentages. If you are hit capped (136 hit rating) and still miss occasionally, chances are the mob has a buffed defense rating.

Shots with a hidden "cast time":
- Auto shot has a hidden ~0.5 second "cast time" that appears to be related to character animation. This cast time can cause auto shot to be delayed by up to a half second if you activate an ability within this animation time.
- Multi shot has a true hidden 0.5 second cast time. This means you cannot cast a multi shot every 10 seconds, rather every 10.5.
- Arcane shot is a true instant and it may/may not trigger the auto shot cast time. It can be fired at the exact same time as an auto shot, using the same animation. It can also be fired a fraction of a second before and delay the subsequent auto shot.

Abilities/Tool tips:
A few of our tool tips are currently wrong. Below are the formulas for our main shots.






Where:

M - Current damage multiplier. All damage multipliers are added together multiplicatively.
S - Current weapon's unhasted speed.
Al - Ammo low (i.e. for 7.5 dps ammo Al is 7).
Ah - Ammo high (i.e for 7.5 dps ammo Ah is 8).
Sc - Scope damage.
rAP - Ranged attack power.
aDPS - Ammo dps.
wDPS - Raw weapon dps.

Threads of significance:

Lactose's HunterCraft post - http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....sid=1&pageNo=2

Hunter Spreadsheet Development - Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development

Hunter AEP Discussion - [Hunter] AEP - Agility Equivalent Points for TBC Hunters

Spreadsheets/Utilities:

Lactose's Spreadsheet
D/L - http://files.filefront.com/HICS_30xl.../fileinfo.html
Thread - Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development

Cheeky's Spreadsheet
D/L - http://www.havoc-guild.us/Cheeky/Hunter_DPS_Calc.xls
Thread - Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development

LurchDawg's Gear Selection Spreadsheet
D/L - http://www.lurchington.com/misc/hunter_list.xls

Glaurong's Simulator
D/L - http://www.vanirguild.com/storage/ShotSimulator.zip

Pet Stats at 70: All pets share these same basic stats, have a base DPS of 30 and a 2.0 attack speed. Each family of pet has a modifier which is applied to any damage they deal.

There is a complete table at: http://www.thottbot.com/?pet=all

Pet Scaling as of 2.0:

Pets get about 30% of the hunter's stamina added to their stamina.
Pets get about 35% of the hunter's armor added to their armor.
Pets get about 22% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their melee attack power.
*Pets get about 12.5% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their spell damage.
Pets get about 40% of the hunter's resistances added to their own resistances.

*Wind serpent's lightning breath was nerfed as of 2.0.10 and no longer gets this bonus.

Shot Rotation Macros:
Auto Shot can be used in a /castsequence macro and will not be clobbered

This can be extended to produce rotation macros. These have to be tailored to your particular weapon speed but can be very effective. An example follows:

*A skilled hunter should be able to perform better than one simply mashing this macro but it can act as a crutch for hunters unable/unwilling to tightly time their shots.

Trinkets:
- Mark of Conquest procs off ranged attacks correctly and seems to provide between 30-35 mp5
- Hourglass of the Unraveller procs correctly off of ranged attacks and adds rAP

Raid notes:
- Pets no longer trigger flame wreath.
- Pets do not shatter during the Gruul encounter. They do however freeze for extended periods of time and can be targeted by cave ins.

Misc Notes
Global Cool is unaffected by haste effects. (Although it is affected by Heroism/Bloodlust)

So... 39/12/0? IS the point lost from SS to get 2/2 GFTT worth it? Or would 40/11/0 be more reasonable?

Eej's post seems to suggest he thinks that 2/2 GFTT is worth taking a point out of SS, but 4% haste to both you and your pet seems like a good chunk of DPS removed to me.

Whee. I was stuck wondering whether Careful Aim might be better than Imp Barrage or not. IB is sexier given my love for MS and the pvp grinding i expect to do the rest of the week, but it only applies to one expensive shot, while CA applies to everything :(

Apologies if this was covered in the 30ish pages of the thread I may have missed.

I think the last thing I posted before the thread broke was the most-likely-highest-DPS BM-based build.

Also I'd like to mention that lots of people seem to be overvaluing Improved Arcane Shot as a talent. It's poorly placed and it costs way too many talent points for its benefit. I'd wager it's actually better for PvP than it is for PvE, except that there's nothing I'd drop to pick up 5/5 Imp Arcane Shot.

[EDIT - Added Careful Aim vs Imp Barrage, GFTT later, maybe never because I can't get solid numbers yet]

For fun, we'll assume a deep Marks build with Focus Fire, so:

1500 RAP, 110 Hunter's Mark, 25% crit-rate
170 int buffed, Ashjre'thul (187 average damage)
Comparing 3/3 Careful Aim vs 3/3 Imp Barrage

Careful Aim

45% of 170 int = 76.5 RAP

76.5 RAP / 14 = 5.46 DPS

5.46 * 1.05 * 1.02 = 5.85 DPS

5.85 + (5.85 * 1.30 * 0.25) = 7.75 DPS (factoring Crits in)

Increase in Autoshot DPS: 7.75 DPS

76.5 RAP * .20 = 15.3 Arcane Shot damage pre-everything

15.3 * 1.05 * 1.02 = 16.39 Base Arcane Shot Damage

16.39 + (16.39 * 1.30 * 0.25) = 21.71 Average Arcane Shot Damage

21.71 Damage / 6 Seconds = 3.62 DPS

Increase in Arcane Shot DPS: 3.62 DPS

76.5 RAP * .20 = 15.3 Multishot damage before stuff

15.3 * 1.05 * 1.02 * 1.15 = 18.84 Base Multishot Damage

18.84 + (18.84 * 1.30 * 0.25) = 24.96 Average Multishot Damage

24.96 Damage / 10 seconds = 2.49 DPS

Total DPS Increase: 13.86 DPS

Improved Barrage

1500 RAP, 110 Hunter's Mark, 22 DPS arrows, and just for shits 'n gig's, Rank 11 Gloves

1610 RAP * 0.20 = 322 damage from AP (normalized to 2.80 speed)

22 DPS * 2.80 seconds = 61.6 damage from Wicked Arrows

322 + 187 + 22 = 531 Multishot damage with Ashjre'thul before modifiers

531 * 1.05 * 1.02 * 1.19 = 676.75 Base Multishot Damage

676.75 + (676.75 * 1.30 * 0.25) = 896.69 Average Multishot Damage

896.69 Damage / 10 Seconds = 89.67 DPS

676.75 + (676.75 * 1.30 * 0.40) = 1028.66 Average Multishot Damage with 3/3 Imp Barrage

1028.66 Damage / 10 Seconds = 102.87 DPS

102.87 - 89.67 = 13.2 DPS

Total DPS Increase for Multi-Shot (Rank 1): 13.2 DPS

Say you wanted to burn a boss down with Max Rank Multis?

322 + 187 + 22 + 150 = 681 Damage before MAFFS

681 * 1.05 * 1.02 * 1.19 = 838.75 Base Multishot Damage

838.75 + (838.75 * 1.30 * 0.25) = 1111.34 Average Multishot Damage

1111.34 Damage / 10 Seconds = 111.13 DPS

838.75 + (838.75 * 1.30 * 0.40) = 1274.90 Average Multishot Damage with 3/3 Imp Barrage

1274.90 Damage / 10 Seconds = 127.49 DPS

127.49 - 111.13 = 16.36 DPS

Total DPS Increase for Multi-Shot (Rank 5): 16.36 DPS

Mind you, this is with Rank 11 Gloves, which everyone can get, but I'm not sure if everyone will use over Black Grasp. However, this was to maximize the effect of Multi-Shot, as you can see.

here's what i'm looking at as a pvp/pve hybrid build.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

entrapment and silencing shot are too good not to have for group pvp IMO - similarly, imp barrage represents a ton of damage. losing efficiency is obviously a huge hit for PVE sustainability, but wth 9 piece CS and consumables i'm pretty sure i can suck it up in every fight outside of sapphiron.

edit: how do i fix this double posting :(

I'm not sure how other guilds are working out which hunters are picking up Improved Hunters Mark, but seeing as efficiency benefits MM hunters more than BM hunters, I think the BM hunters should pick it up (something I plan on doing).

And I'm still not convinced that 2/2 GFTT > 4% Haste + 10% damage for 18 sec or even 4% Haste + Aimed (with a slow weapon).

It will be interesting trying to adjust to the new 2 second arming time and 30 second cooldown.

Careful Aim is (Int*0.45)*1.10 assuming you take Master Marksman as well. I have about 200 Int raid-buffed, so that's an additional +99 RAP I get for 3 talent points.

Imp. Barrage is (X*0.15)*1.3 if you have Mortal Shots, or a 19.5% increase in Multi-shot damage at the cost of 3 talent points.

With Rhok and anything slower Imp. Barrage is more damage. I'd predict that even with the Huhuran's Stinger in your profile Imp. Barrage would net you a larger dps increase than Careful Aim. However, remember that you can't always use Multi-shot. There are Multi-shot unfriendly CC fights like Skeram, Hakkar, MajorDomo, etc. where you can't really use Multi-shot, so any points in Barrage and Imp. Barrage will be "useless" on those fights, whereas Careful Aim is a passive bonus that will increase the damage of all your attacks.

Actually the gloves are the former rank 12 gloves.

Imp Arcane is a PvP talent mostly, it doesn't add that much sustained dps as other talents (but it does add some).

The talent calcs say instant cast and 20 second cooldown. However, the shot has a travel time, so it does take some getting used to (you can use it to temp shut down a caster, i.e. it is a good opening shot).

i'm pretty sure he's referring to traps :-P

i've been playing with them in the new form on beta for a while, but yeah, it's a weird change to get used to.

Rank 11, Rank 12, same thing, I've had these gloves forever now. In any case...

Okay so I sort of figured out how to model GFTT's contribution to damage.

First you get the damage of your Wind Serpent's Lightning Breath:

106 Average Nature Damage base

Then you add Spell Damage from RAP, which is where things already start to break down. What's a good level of RAP for a BM Hunter? Does Hunter's Mark add to your pet's Spell Power, since it increases your effective RAP? In any case, let's assume 1300 RAP.

1300 RAP * 0.125 Spell Damage/RAP * 0.43 Coefficient for instant cast = 69.89 additional damage

106 + 69.89 = 175.89 Damage Before Da Maths

175.89 * 1.25 (Well Fed) * 1.20 (Unleashed Fury) * 1.03 (Ferocious Inspiration) = 271.75 Base Damage

Another Problem: Does LB crit scale with Int? Or is it just a flat 5%? Assuming flat 5%:

271.75 + [271.75 * 0.50 * 0.15 (Ferocity)] = 292.13 Average Damage on Lightning Breath

So on average, when our LB spits hot lightning, he deals 292.13 Nature damage.

Assuming we still have our awesome 25% Crit-Rate and we're using a fast weapon, like say a High Warlord's Recurve (1.80 speed):

1.80 speed / [1.15 (Quiver) * 1.16 (Serpent's Swiftness)] = 1.35 Attack Speed

Problem: Modelling IAotH proc properly.

In a 1 minute timespan, you fire 44.44 Autoshots, 9 Arcane Shots and 6 Multi-Shots (assuming you started with Multi). I can't think properly right now but the Arcane Shot per minute should have a fraction. Regardless, that's 59.44 Shots, so 14.86 Crits per Minute. Or roughly 0.25 Crits per Second.

Everytime you crit, you get a free Lightning Breath, thus:

0.25 * 292.13 = 73 DPS increase. This is assuming that every time you crit, that 50 Focus is used on Lightning Breath and does not happen in a GCD such that it pushes the Serpent past 100 Focus and wastes the GFTT.

I'm fairly certain I screwed up somewhere, either that or GFTT is just that much better than I thought it would be. Plus I don't know how to properly model Imp AotH.

Fairly certain that 3/3 Imp Barrage and 1/3 Careful Aim is your best bet, seeing as Imp Barrage is the potentially greater talent (scales with Gear upgrades, but most significantly with Weapon upgrades, whereas Careful Aim only scales with your Int).

I would change:
- Imp Concussive for Imp Hunter Mark or Efficiency
- Rapid Killing for GFTT (+ tame son of hakkar)
- Entrapment for Careful Aim

note "pvp" :-P it's basically arena/BG focused while attempting to remain effective in raiding, which means GFTT and imp mark are certainly out, and there's no way i'm giving up entrapment, because it was a great talent even back when it cost 5 points :)

I replied to this in the other thread, but i think that my post was the one that broke it. People were wondering whether the global cooldown happened when multi shot cast or when it was activated. With regards to firing an arcane shot after it, it shouldn't matter, since at 5 seconds, arcane shot's cooldown is still a perfect factor of multi shot's cooldown, meaning the cooldowns should never crash if you have 5/5.

As to whether 5/5 is worth it or not, 5 points is a pretty large investment, but it makes your cycle perfect, you never waste a second (something that you couldn't acheive with the multi/aimed cycle). I think that this will end up having a much larger impact on dps than the fact that you can fire a few more arcane shots. Certainly there are other very nice talents that you could spend those points on, but I'm thinking that 5/5 imp arcane will definitely be worth more than 8 dps.

Eej, from screenshots I've seen elsewhere, and buried in the previous hunter thread, your numbers are just about perfect. One SS that I recall seeing back in there if you want to dig for it showed the average LB damage boing about 280, and that it accounted for slightly more than half the pet's overall DPS.

And 5% crit is right, the Wind Serpent only gets spell crit from the BM crit talent.

Overall, LB scales with our RAP better than any other pet ability (most of them don't scale at all), and GFTT makes it scale with our Crit rate as well. So yes, Wind Serpent >> *.

Personally, I hope Blizzard realizes LB is great because it scales with RAP, and fixes every other pet ability to scale as well. Once claw scales properly, it should easily dethrone LB, but they need to make sure pets w/o instant abilities get some. Plus are pets have been so heavily normalized, I've begun to despair of having pets be different...

I actually think the question was (or should be): Does the 10 second cooldown of Multi-Shot start when you start casting Multi-Shot, or when Multi-Shot fires, which would be 0.5 seconds later?
In the first case, you can repeat Multi-Shot every 10 seconds, in the second case, you can repeat Multi-Shot every 10.5 seconds.

Edit: The question is actually a question now.

i'm torn between focus fire and careful aim myself. :\

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=cxbZVViRVzhxst (focus fire)
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=mxZVViRVzhest (careful aim with only 4/5 iAotH)

le sigh!

Shhhh, don't give them any ideas.

Should be the latter. As far as I remember it works like this;

Global Cooldown starts when you press Multi-shot. The 0.5 second delay is exactly like a 'cast timer'. Thus, when Multi-shot fires, you have 1 second left on the global cooldown, and the Multi-shot 10-second cooldown begins.

Which causes a staggered use of Multi-shot due to the 0.5 increment; never mind reaction time and latency.

[Edit: Clarified a little.]

OH DEAR GOD IT MADE IT TO LIVE!!!

Our base crit is -1.532. I'm sad.

When I ran the numbers on 5/5 Imp. Arcane Shot, I came up with a 17.82 dps increase, and that was without including Curse of Shadows for the additional +10% Arcane damage.