Hunter Mechanics -- v2.0/TBC - Page 3

Kaejin · 12/06/06, 2:57 AM

On live, Rank 2 of Kill Command is back on the Hunter Trainers and Steady Shot is a level 66 skill.

I'm thinking they changed it back since on the test server it was Steady at 62/no second rank of KK.

Eej · 12/06/06, 3:35 AM

Originally Posted by Elendril

so yeah...rapid killing is absolutely awesome in group PVP. i just aimed shotted someone for 3400 :)

I just Auto'd a Warrior for 1262 and Arcane'd for 1730 with Rapid Killling (buff applied to both shots because it's awesome like that) with only Mark of the Wild and TSA up. I don't think I've ever had this much fun on my Hunter in forever... I mean, I can't even consider rerolling at the moment.

Well, maybe when the new-ness wears off my mind will change.

Farstrider · 12/06/06, 3:45 AM

Not so much relevant for new 51 point builds, but as far as levelling from 60-70 goes, I would strongly recommend not wasting points in the multishot boosting talents, it's 6 points that are pretty much completely wasted in instances. Two reasons for that - first most pulls in the new instances are at least 4 mobs meaning that you'll always be CC'ing 1-2 mobs, which isn't exactly synergetic with MS. Second, the fights are MUCH longer than in current instances, meaning that MS reliance will send you OOM early on in fights, and having to use AotV instead of AotH is worth around 40 dps, which is more than MS will make up for you.

So if the Multishot talents are worth 14dps, you can say that:-

If using Multishot will mean you need to use AotV for more than 1/3 of the fight, you're better off not using it and keeping AotH on.

And that's not even taking into account the dps effect from AotH procs which is worth at least 20 dps I reckon.

Caradoc · 12/06/06, 4:08 AM

Originally Posted by Eej

...
Problem: Modelling IAotH proc properly...

...Plus I don't know how to properly model Imp AotH.

The correct model for this or any chance with a duration function is:

Probability the shot itself will trigger the effect + Probability any preceding shot in the duration of the ability has already triggered the effect.

P+(1-(1-P/100)^n)*100

(Where P = the probability the talent will proc, n = the number of shots in the duration of the talent that could cause the proc)

So you're basically calculating the chance there has NOT been a proc of the talent within the past 12 seconds (in the case of IAotH) converting that to the equivalent probability there HAS been a proc and adding the proc chance itself.

So for IAotH for a 1.8 spd wpn and 15% quiver haste we get:

15+(1-(1-0.15)^8.11)*100 = 67.45% chance each autoshot will be under the effect of IAotH
which is equivalent to a constant haste bonus of 15*0.6745 = 10%

Caradoc · 12/06/06, 4:26 AM

Originally Posted by Glaurong

some stuff about Aimed shot in a rotation

Just read your post in the old thread Glaurong, I too was working Aimed shot into a rotation unti I figured out the numbers.

Aimed shot IS a boost to overall DPS, but only by a small ammount, even if perfectly timed to Autoshot.

The increase in casting time from 3 to 3.5s means it fires significantly more slowly than any autoshot, eating into that bonus damage. Add to that the fact that you can never perfectly time an aimedshot to go off the split second an auto has fired and you're losing a further 0.5 (ish) seconds of damage time, not to mention the lost dps from delaying casts of other abilities. The final nail in the coffin of Aimed shot is the huge mana expenditure.

So in the final analysis, Aimed shot is a decent opener for PvP (before the first autoshot) when you have the drop on someone, but just a mana sink if used in any form of rotation for little or no effective dps increase.

PitiChatMignon · 12/06/06, 4:37 AM

Regarding the MS cooldown problem it is important to know if it starts when you cast it or when it fires.

If CD start when you cast Multi shot, with 5/5 in arcan shot cycle is :

0s     Start MS
0.5s   MS fires
1.5s   GCD finished, AS
6.5s   AS
10s    Start MS
10.5s  MS fires
11.5s  GCD finished, AS
16.5s  AS
20s    Start MS
20.5s  MS fires
etc

In this case, yes 5/5 arcan shot is perfect.

But, if the CD starts when MS fires :

0s     Start MS
0.5s   MS fires
1.5s   GCD finish
6.5s   AS
10.5s  Start MS
11.5s  AS is up but still under global CD
12s    You can finally AS

So in this case you are wasting some talent points in AS.

Better solution if CD starts after MS fires is 4/5 in arcan shot :

0s    Start MS
0.5s  MS fires
1.5s  AS
6.7s  AS
10.5s Start MS
11s   MS fires
11.9s AS is ready but still under GCD
12s   AS
17.2  AS
21.5s Start MS
22s   MS fires
22.4s AS is ready but fires still under GCD
22.5s AS
etc

In a way I prefer if the CD strat after MS fires, as It will save one point to put somewhere else in my build, and you have a 0.1s in each cycle to compensate for the lag.

alienangel · 12/06/06, 5:14 AM

Originally Posted by Eej

Originally Posted by Elendril

so yeah...rapid killing is absolutely awesome in group PVP. i just aimed shotted someone for 3400 :)

I just Auto'd a Warrior for 1262 and Arcane'd for 1730 with Rapid Killling (buff applied to both shots because it's awesome like that) with only Mark of the Wild and TSA up. I don't think I've ever had this much fun on my Hunter in forever... I mean, I can't even consider rerolling at the moment.

Well, maybe when the new-ness wears off my mind will change.

yeah, hunter pvp, specifically marks PvP is a blast right now. being charged by 6 people and having 3 of them explode on the way to me isn't something i'm used to. on the down side, half of what i hear in the general channels or guild chat is about how overpowered hunters are and need nerfing, so i'm feeling a little insecure.

and damn, why wasn't mongoose bite like this when i had Savage Strikes >.<

Fugazor · 12/06/06, 5:54 AM

Originally Posted by Zeboim

OH DEAR GOD IT MADE IT TO LIVE!!!

Our base crit is -1.532. I'm sad.

*insert random curses here*

Ok time to QQ hard so they will hopefully fix it next week with "fix" patch.

Oh i suppose dodge is bugged too? (-5%)

Phlis · 12/06/06, 7:10 AM

Tangent:

ZG Snakes - HP, Armor, DPS, or Medium? I've heard 1.4 attack speed, didnt' get a chance to run down there last night to check them out. They have the third rank of Poison Spit, which apparently doesn't stack?

Also, the new spell Gore, whats the deal?

Any info while I'm sitting at work greatly anticipating going home and taming a snake would be appreciated.

Fugazor · 12/06/06, 8:59 AM

Tame windserpent in ZG. Poison spit suck as damage is over 12 sec and does not stack (tested at PTR) :(

Serpents have "normal" stats.
Wind serpents have +7% damage bonus (same as owls/bats).

You can see all here:
http://thottbot.com/beta?pet=all

Gore (Rank 8) [lvl56]
25 Focus 5 yd range
Instant
Gores the enemy, causing 30 to 48 damage. This attack has a 50% chance to inflict double damage.

Still suck compared to Lightning Breath. Also no idea is it in live or only in beta.

Azulor · 12/06/06, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by PitiChatMignon

Regarding the MS cooldown problem it is important to know if it starts when you cast it or when it fires.

If CD start when you cast Multi shot, with 5/5 in arcan shot cycle is :

0s     Start MS
0.5s   MS fires
1.5s   GCD finished, AS
6.5s   AS
10s    Start MS
10.5s  MS fires
11.5s  GCD finished, AS
16.5s  AS
20s    Start MS
20.5s  MS fires
etc

In this case, yes 5/5 arcan shot is perfect.

But, if the CD starts when MS fires :

0s     Start MS
0.5s   MS fires
1.5s   GCD finish
6.5s   AS
10.5s  Start MS
11.5s  AS is up but still under global CD
12s    You can finally AS

So in this case you are wasting some talent points in AS.

Better solution if CD starts after MS fires is 4/5 in arcan shot :

0s    Start MS
0.5s  MS fires
1.5s  AS
6.7s  AS
10.5s Start MS
11s   MS fires
11.9s AS is ready but still under GCD
12s   AS
17.2  AS
21.5s Start MS
22s   MS fires
22.4s AS is ready but fires still under GCD
22.5s AS
etc

In a way I prefer if the CD strat after MS fires, as It will save one point to put somewhere else in my build, and you have a 0.1s in each cycle to compensate for the lag.

I agree. Improved Arcane is a great talent, but perhaps not 5/5. If you do go 5/5, however, and Multi cooldown is as in the second example above, you need to prioritize arcane shot over multi or you will have the collisions above which will mean you've wasted a point.

Eej · 12/06/06, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Caradoc

Originally Posted by Eej

...
Problem: Modelling IAotH proc properly...

...Plus I don't know how to properly model Imp AotH.

The correct model for this or any chance with a duration function is:

Probability the shot itself will trigger the effect + Probability any preceding shot in the duration of the ability has already triggered the effect.

P+(1-(1-P/100)^n)*100

(Where P = the probability the talent will proc, n = the number of shots in the duration of the talent that could cause the proc)

So you're basically calculating the chance there has NOT been a proc of the talent within the past 12 seconds (in the case of IAotH) converting that to the equivalent probability there HAS been a proc and adding the proc chance itself.

So for IAotH for a 1.8 spd wpn and 15% quiver haste we get:

15+(1-(1-0.15)^8.11)*100 = 67.45% chance each autoshot will be under the effect of IAotH
which is equivalent to a constant haste bonus of 15*0.6745 = 10%

Thanks for the math, I probably couldn't have figured it out myself. :P

So going back to the 39/12 build:

1.80 speed / (1.15 * 1.16 * 1.10) = 1.23 average attack speed

After 1 minute: 48.78 Autoshots, 9 Arcane Shots and 6 Multishots. 63.78 shots, 25% of which are crits, so 15.95 crits per minute. 0.27 crits per second.

0.27 * 292.13 = 77.63 DPS Increase under ideal situations.

One extra point of Serpent's Swiftness and Beast Within isn't going to make up for that much DPS.

Caradoc · 12/06/06, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Eej

One extra point of Serpent's Swiftness and Beast Within isn't going to make up for that much DPS.

If you're thinking raid DPS, then don't forget about sustainability. Beast Within gives 20% mana reduction to all abilities, all the time. You are trading a focus generating ability for a mana conservation ability, might be worthwhile looking at the maths for that too.

Fugazor · 12/06/06, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Caradoc

Beast Within gives 20% mana reduction to all abilities, all the time.

Wrong :( Only for duration, so 18 sec.

Eej · 12/06/06, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Caradoc

Originally Posted by Eej

One extra point of Serpent's Swiftness and Beast Within isn't going to make up for that much DPS.

If you're thinking raid DPS, then don't forget about sustainability. Beast Within gives 20% mana reduction to all abilities, all the time. You are trading a focus generating ability for a mana conservation ability, might be worthwhile looking at the maths for that too.

Beast Within gives 20% mana reduction to all abilities for the duration of Bestial Wrath, which is nowhere as good as all the time. :P

You can fit three Arcanes and one Multi in 18 seconds, max rank that's something like 915 mana. So you save 183 mana every 2 minutes, or an equivelant of 7.6 mp5.

Points to consider for BM-spec mana regen: Black Grasp of the Destroyer and Judgement of Wisdom are great for you, and if all else fails, downranking still works (25 mana for RAP*0.2 + 6 damage? Hiyooo!)