Okay, I think I've gone and confused myself to the point of completely forgetting :/

The WeaponSpeed in the following equations,
is it modified by haste or the speed listed on the weapon? For example, for Rhok, is it 2.90 or 2.52 (after 15% quiver)?

Also, we're going to need a new Arcane formula now with the change as of this patch.

Gore can proc frenzy, but no more often than any other pet skill. The "double damage" isnt considered a crit, simply an attack which does double damage. It can crit if it does single damage and it can crit while doing double damage. Still doesnt scale, which is the problem with most every pet skill that isnt nature/fire damage.

Since your only looking for how much damage it does, you dont include hastes.

I'm sorry if it was asked already (probably it was but in archived thread, searched through this one) : Is conclusive barrage talent usefull? Are bosses immune to this proc? How much you can possibly gain in dps with increased steady shot damage on dazed targets?

I think it turns out useless because of the dismally low procrate and duration, but I don't really have any math to support that. On the plus side, apparently the lvl 70 Shield Slam (or was it Shield Bash?) also dazes the target, and since Heroic Strike gets extra damage on dazed targets, our tanks say they'll be keeping dazable targets dazed, so talents like Concussive Barrage and Blade Twisting won't be necessary.

The idea is useful, but just like the Rogue's combat tree daze talent, its proc rate is too low to be of any use.

It would help out Steady Shot, but if you want the daze you are better off with concussion or having a Warrior Shield Bash/Piercing Howl

Sorry in advance for the long post.

I really thought figuring out a rotation would be much easier, but now that I had a close look at it, its a lot more complicated then expected. Each weapon speed gives totally different results. I'd really like to post it in some cool code box, where its compared next to each other, but I dont know how, so I'll have to list them below each other.
Please point out if you see any mistakes. For the steady shots I only wrote down the second where the steady is actually fired off, leaving the caststart out, or it would get to long. To have at least one base to start from I took a 10 second rotation, bound to the multi cooldown.

Cast time for Steady is 1,3 for MM and 1,1 for BM.

For the dps I already entered the new Multi and Arcane formulas (dont know about the exact new arcane bonus, so I took 270) and always took 73,8 dps, 2000 RAP, 50dps arrows, 200 Int and 25% crit with the according speeds.

MM multipliers are mortal shots, lethal shots, barrage, imp barrage, RWS, slaying, focus fire, trueshot, careful aim and master marksman, so the MM ends up with 2436,5 RAP.

BM multipliers are mortal shots, lethal shots, focus fire, ferocious insp., serpent swifness and TBW.

1. 2,9 Speed / MM Hunter / after Quiver ~2,5 Speed

0 Multi
0,5 Auto
1,5 Arcane
3 Auto
4,3 Steady
5,5 Auto
6,8 Steady
7,5 Arcane
8 Auto

Shots fired (I will say 1/2 Arcane and 2/3 Steady because this changes in the 2nd rotation and vice versa):
1x Multi
1/2x Arcane
2/3x Steady
4x Auto

Total DPS (I count the 1/2 Arcane as 1.5 Arcane and 2/3 Steady as 2.5): 1182,09

2. 2,9 Speed / BM Hunter / after Quiver and SS ~2,1 Speed

0 Multi
0,5 Auto
1,5 Arcane
2,6 Auto
4,1 Steady
4,7 Auto
5,8 Steady
6,8 Auto
7,5 Arcane
8,9 Auto

That last auto would not really fit in so I dont count it in the dps.

Shots fired:
1x Multi
1/2x Arcane
2/3x Steady
4/5x Auto

Total DPS: 970,94

3. 2,4 Speed / MM Hunter / after Quiver ~2,1 Speed

Essentially the same rotation and number of shots as 2,9 speed as a BM

Total DPS: 1062,01

4. 2,4 Speed / BM Hunter / after Quiver and SS ~1,75 Speed

0 Multi
0,5 Auto
1,5 Arcane
2,25 Auto
4,1 Steady
4,2 Auto (this one is clipped a little bit, but it doesnt matter)
5,3 Steady
6 Auto
7,1 Steady
7,75 Auto
8 Arcane

Shots fired:
1x Multi
1/2x Arcane
3/4x Steady
5x Auto

Total DPS: 1071,86


5. 1,8 Speed / MM Hunter / after Quiver ~1,6 Speed

0 Multi
0,5 Auto
1,5 Arcane
2,1 Auto
4,3 Steady (here it starts to get complicated, will you wait for another auto on 3,7, or will you start casting steady at 3,0?)
4,4 Auto (totally clipped)
5,7 Steady
6 Auto
7,3 Steady
7,6 Auto
8,1 Arcane
9,2 Auto

Again, the last auto would not fit without pushing the whole rotation so its not in the dps.

Shots fired:
1x Multi
1/2x Arcane
3/4x Steady
5/6x Auto

Total DPS: 1122,26

6. 1,8 Speed / BM Hunter / after Quiver and SS ~1,3 Speed

0 Multi
0,5 Auto
1,5 Arcane
1,8 Auto
3,1 Auto
4,2 Steady
4,4 Auto
5,5 Steady
5,6 Auto
6,7 Steady
6,9 Auto
8,2 Auto
8,5 Arcane
9,5 Auto

The last auto would cause a little problem again.

I'd say ingame this rotation is not doable.

Shots fired:
1x Multi
1/2x Arcane
3/4x Steady
7/8x Auto (last auto not counted in dps)

Total DPS: 1069,2

Conclusion:

1. 2,9 Speed:
As expected with a slow weapon the MM hunter has the advantage, because both do the same number of shots, while the MM has all his multiplier advantages.

2. 2,4 Speed:
The advantage of MM is really almost non existant, because the BM can fit in 1 more special and 1 more autoshot.

3. 1,8 Speed:
The BM hunter could technically squeeze out 2 more autos with super precise shooting, but its possibly not doable and the 2 autos are worse then 1 auto and 1 special with the 2,4 speed.
Then again, its 2 more shots to proc GftT.

Obviously the rotations I used might be tweaked because its not so clear a 10 second rotation anymore, but if I didnt make any major mistakes I'm quite surprised by the result of the 2,4 speed weapon.

As far as I can tell the introduction of steady shot rendered static rotations obsolete.

After running all of my calculations and simulations I've come to the conclusion that a set rotation will always be less damage than a priority queue.

By priority queue I mean you take each of your abilities, rank them based on their average damage (factoring in crits and talents). Then in between each auto shot, use whichever ability is ranked highest. The order will change over time and shot priorities will be different for different specs but this will always result in the most damage done.

A form of rotation will always be used, be it 10 seconds and accurately controlled or be it 120 seconds. At some point everything starts anew. Apart from that I exactly did what you mean. Every 10 seconds there is a multi, and every time I have the chance I use arcane instead of steady, so in 10 seconds you have 2 arcanes and 2 steadys, in the next 10 seconds you have only 1 arcane but 3 steadys, then back to 1 SS and 3 AS. If arcane nets more damage then steady is to be decided per fight.

Anyway, you have to have some kind of rotation, otherwise you cant really figure out the dps.

Sure you can, plug it into my sim and let it run for a million seconds =P

You can figure out a rotation for everything if you want but like you mentioned it might be 100+ seconds if the timings just don't line up right. No matter how complex your static rotation it doesn't take into account kill command, hawk procs or dazed targets.

Also, not clobbering an auto shot is almost always the best thing to do and you can clobber one with a multi shot. It has that half second hidden casting time and depending on weapon speed and global cools you can't say you get one multi off every 10 seconds. Actually even in the old rotations its 10.5, the cool doesn't start till the hidden cast finishes.

Anyway, point being, a priority queue is much easier to manage than a long complicated rotation and will always result in the most damage.

Well there are still situations in which you want a rotation and want to optimize it. For instance if I'm just grinding I'll sometimes only use steady and auto. A priority queue would have me just alternating steady and auto, whereas a rotation has me doing 2 steadies between every auto. That actually causes every one of my autos to be delayed by about 0.6s, but still yields higher DPS (I think...) than a single steady. Working out what situations in which it's worth delaying your autoshots for something is, imho, much more likely to happen in rotational models than with PQueue models.

Regarding clobbering your auto shots, wouldn't it always be better to clobber them if you're shooting a higher-damage shot? I mean, you fire your multi first when arcane and multi are up at the same time, because multi does more damage. Since multi and arcane shot do more damage than auto shot, wouldn't you want to use them as soon as the cooldowns are up?

Yes, global cool is triggered when an ability is activated. If something has a separate cool down it is triggered when the ability fires.

You could see this happening with aimed shot if you use the standard UI bars. When you click aimed shot you will see the global cool spin off on all our buttons (including aimed). When aimed finishes casting then the aimed shot cool shows up on that button.

Edit - Regarding the steady->arcane: The priority queue I've built into the simulator would allow that, it just does everything it can to not clobber an auto shot. If there is time and the cools allow it will pack 2 shots in between autos.

Regarding clobbering auto shots: There are times when clobbering auto shots will net you more dps (like the situation alien pointed out). However managing it correctly to optimize dps across all the shots we have is ridiculously tricky. I could code it into the sim but I don't think a person could manage it without an add-on.

Any time an ability becomes ready, you would have to see how long your next auto shot would be delayed by activating it. Then compare the dps lost by delaying that auto shot to the dps gained by triggering your other ability earlier. If it comes out in your favor, go for it.

You could shoehorn this into a static rotation but more than likely the inefficiency of that would cancel any gains you get via clobbering auto shots.

...just bumping my post =p

Hello i recently received a few new weapons in 2 of the tempest keep 5 mans and the lvl 70 blue pvp xbow

im not entirely sure what one i should be using for best "DPS" output for mainly the up and coming 25-man karz.

I'm MM spec =p

http://thottbot.com/?i=59648

http://thottbot.com/?i=59658

http://thottbot.com/?i=55051

IF any one has suggestions or comments drop a line. Thanks

After using clipped and full for so long, clobbering really hurts my eyes :(

1) Fill out your profile
2) Thottbot is screwed up today and lots of people are having problems getting to it.
3) Karazhan is a 10 man dungeon
4) Those weapons are all comparable. It's not like you are trying to compare a 1.8 speed weapon with a 3.4 speed weapon or ones with varying DPS. Pick whichever you like the look of, the difference isn't going to be significant.

Edit:
Sorry, I'm a programmer/systems guy. Clobber is just part of my terminology.

I think it's very descriptive of what actually occurs personally. I'm really starting to think that theorycrafting hunters is now impossible beyond a certain point. There will no doubt be optimal weapon speeds, where more shots will fit evenly between auto shots, but if you can discover them, with all the possible permutations of ability usage, you're much smarter than i am.

I agree with that. As you can see on my shot rotations, with that many shots and a BM spec you are already at a point where its very difficult to perfectly control your actions. I see it ingame everyday that mixing steady shot with a 1.3 weapon is a bit too much. So rapid fire and imp AotH is totally too much and it wouldnt make any sense to try to figure it out, because you just cant control much when you shoot at 0.8 speed + specials, so I guess I will go for a 2.4 speed weapon and pass on the 2 extra autos with an extra chance to proc GftT for playability.

BUT I still see it as a must to have "any" kind of base for what I do. Dps with a hunter has always been a game of discipline and I cant stop thinking like that.
The base 10 or 10,5 second rotation that I wrote down give quite a lot of dps and for lvl 70 the stats I used are easily achievable.
So if my base is already nice, then I will just let things like rapid fire and IAotH happen for good and be ok with the fact that for some seconds I have less control over the rotation.
If someone can write down his priority queue list, if it is really different then mine, and show that it nets more damage and is easy to keep in mind I would surely use that one.

Edit: btw, with the new formula steady shot gives around 30% more dps then arcane, so if that fact is not pushed aside by mitigation I'd say you can now just pass on arcane altogether in PvE except for the 1 arcane after the multi-auto, since at that point you cant get a steady in because of the cast time.

I'm still getting pretty close to the same average damage between steady and arcane. That will change with a little more attack power, I'm sure. But if you can fit a steady->arcane between autoshots, I see no reason to pass on the arcane. Unless KC or silencing shot does more damage for you.

I dont have the numbers in front of me, but I think my average damage for autoshots, arcane shot, and steady shot were all between 540 and 590 yesterday, with arcane being the highest, followed by steady, then auto. The difference wasnt much though. The test wasn't all that accurate, because it was just my parsed numbers from just about everything I fought, but all I was looking for was an average damage, crits included.

looked back a few pages and haven't seen it discussed at all aside from Glaurong's mp5 calculations, but what are everyone's thoughts on Aspect of the Viper?

Are 64+ hunters using that full time instead of Aspect of the Hawk, and how much regen are you seeing with your TBC gear?

I'm still 41 BM and working up to 20 MM, and I'm wondering if speccing out of Improved aspect of the Hawk, and putting points into Endurance Training and Thick Hide seem to be the way to go at 64+

I rarely use AotV. Surprisingly, my mana is holding out a lot longer than I thought it would, and losing the ap and haste really hurts. I use it when grinding, if I'm using a lot of shots, rather than steady-auto-steady. I toggle it on when I'm drinking to eliminate downtime, or if I find myself out of mana on a boss. For the most part though, I'm using hawk.

Edit: I even replaced the mana on my bracers with ap.

Edited to include Steady shot and using Master Marksman

Aspect of the Viper vs Downranking.

Aspect of the Hawk:

RAP increase - 155*1.3(DS 3 piece+Master Marksman) = 201.5RAP bonus

Increase in Autoshot dps

[top] (201.5/14)*1.02(FF)*1.05(RWS)+(201.5/14)*1.02(FF)*1.05(RWS)*1.3(MS)*0.25

20.4dps increase

Increase in Steady Shot dps

[top] 201.5*0.2*1.02(FF)*1.05(RWS)+201.5*0.2*1.02(FF)*1.05(RWS)*1.3(MS)*0.25 *5/10(assuming 5 steadies in 10 seconds, ignoring arcane)

28.6dps increase

Increase in Multishot dps(imp Barrage)

[top] ((201.5*0.2*1.02(FF)*1.05(RWS)*1.12(barrage))+(201.5*0.2*1.05*1.02*1.12*1.3(MS)*0.40( Imp.Barrage)))/10

7.5dps

Increase due to RAP bonus = 56.5dps

Increase due to improved Aspect of the Hawk:

Autoshot dps(assuming 1510RAP with HM) = ((1510/14(RAP) +22(Ammo) +55(Weapon))*1.02(FF)*1.05(RWS))+((1510/14(RAP) +22(Ammo) +55(Weapon))*1.02(FF)*1.05(RWS))*1.3(MS)*1.25 = 262.4

Improved aspect uptime for Ashj'rethul = 0.36 = 0.35*0.15*262.4 = 13.8dps
for reference: Improved Aspect uptime for HWL bow = 0.57 = 0.57*0.15*262.4 = 22.4dps

So total dps increase from Aspect of the Hawk is 70.3dps

Contrast that to:
Downrank Multishot:
Multi rank 5 -> Multi rank 1 = (150*1.02*1.05 + 150*1.02*1.05*1.3*0.25)/10 = 21.3dps


So FULLY downranking loses you 21.3dps vs losing 70.3dps by switching to Aspect of the Viper

But of course we never really fully downrank(especially given that Multishot has now been un-nerfed) we could probably keep up a Multi rank 1 and steady cycle more or less indefinitely(factoring in combat manapots)

So effectively whether you choose Viper over Hawk depends on how long your fight is and how lazy you are with consumables.
If you are prone to popping a combat mana pot and a night dragon whenever cooldowns are up you can probably run an infinite rotation of Steady/Multi 2 or something similar in which case using Viper is clearly the poorer option.
Another point worth making is that Viper alone will not push you from rank 1 -> to toprank, For arguments sake lets say Viper nets you 50mana/5(from 200int, pretty typical), the increase in mana consumption from rank 1 to double toprank is 65mana/5 so AotV covers roughly 3 quarters of the toprank mana consumption.

Example: to get the same benefit of Aspect of the Viper we need to save 50mana/5 - the most efficient way of doing this is by dropping Multi Rank 5 to Multi Rank 2, a drop of 90mana over 10 seconds(45 mana/5)

so dps lost from downranking,
Multi rank 5 -> Multi rank 2 = (110*1.02*1.05 + 110*1.02*1.05*1.3*0.25)/10 = 15.6dps
vs dps lost from dropping Aspect(above) = 70.3dps

The further you downrank, the more efficient further downranking becomes, so multi 5 -> multi 2 is about the best case scenario for a Hawk v Viper comparison for Viper.

In conclusion, Aspect of the Viper is shit.

Assumptions:
Marksmanship Hunter with 1510RAP(including HM - so 1400RAP) and 25% crit
Talents: RWS, FF, Improved Barrage, Master Marksman

Worth mentioning: a heavy BM build will make a bit more out of Viper than a Marksman build(survival build is too shit to mention) due to the fact it has less AP than Marksmanship due to the dps being mainly due to haste effects making downranking of specials marginally less efficient, having said that, its still shit.