This is the Leatherworking path I took. I think it was very inexpensive, as it reduced Leather quantities drastically by maximising skillups on Hides, which are very cheap, and on funky material types (e.g. Scorpid Scales, Frostsaber Leather) that reduce the quantity of standard Leathers dramatically at the cost of a bit of time spent Skinning.
I would hate to have Pet A for Arcane Boss, Pet B for Fire Boss, and Pet C for Nature Boss. Insert gripe about stable slots here. It's far more useful to have a generalist pet whose good against every boss, and that means armor, stam and pet abilities win out over resistances.
For raiding, I don't find that this is really a problem. At least, it wasn't pre-TBC. You could get by with at most two resists for an entire dungeon; MC and BWL were fire + shadow, AQ and Naxx were nature + shadow. I havn't (nor has anyone else) done enough raiding to determine whether that will hold true for TBC raids. From what I know, Karazhan has arcane and fire resist fights, and gruul has a fight where fire resist for one character helps.
I would hate to have Pet A for Arcane Boss, Pet B for Fire Boss, and Pet C for Nature Boss. Insert gripe about stable slots here. It's far more useful to have a generalist pet whose good against every boss, and that means armor, stam and pet abilities win out over resistances.
For raiding, I don't find that this is really a problem. At least, it wasn't pre-TBC. You could get by with at most two resists for an entire dungeon; MC and BWL were fire + shadow, AQ and Naxx were nature + shadow. I havn't (nor has anyone else) done enough raiding to determine whether that will hold true for TBC raids. From what I know, Karazhan has arcane and fire resist fights, and gruul has a fight where fire resist for one character helps.
To each their own, I just don't find the resistances to be more useful then either armor, stam, or howl/lightning breath/dash/bite/whatever, and I hate using stable slots for specific dungeon pets because inevitably I forget to take the right one to the instance.
Since I'm not great at math myself, I'm curious what other people have found as equivalence points for AP/Agi/Crit. Right now I'm sitting at 2104 AP unbuffed, with about 21% crit (profile in my sig). I've been valuing 1 crit rating = 1 agi = 2 AP, roughly, and I'm curious if people have insight that might offer better evaluation.
To each their own, I just don't find the resistances to be more useful then either armor, stam, or howl/lightning breath/dash/bite/whatever, and I hate using stable slots for specific dungeon pets because inevitably I forget to take the right one to the instance.
If 640 health were anywhere near as good at damage mitigation as 140 resistance, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, resistance far outstrips any other kind of mitigation on resistance fights, and in the previous raid zones there were always resistance fights. A well-trained pet can easily live through Firemaw, for example, whereas a 0-resist pet will get annihilated in short order.
All castmods I tried in beta when I tested this the first time gave exactly the same result as people here have mentioned: 1.5 second cast for Steady Shot without quiver, 1.3 second cast for Steady Shot with quiver. Every time the shot fired at the end of the bar, not before or after.
I now believe this to be true.
With my 15% quiver (duh) and MM spec, I also notice that I can dependably start an autoshot (/startattack) and .45 sec later, start a steady shot, and not lose the autoshot. This is with a steady <100ms ping (ping shouldn't matter as long as it doesn't vary, however).
What I didn't do is test with serpent's swiftness (don't want to waste gold), or with quick shots/rapid fire (too difficult to test by my method).
Do you believe that the time it takes to fire (the first) autoshot depends in any way on
a) haste effects incl. quiver
b) base bow speed?
Clearly we all agree that aimed and steady are affected by a) but not b).
Also, is multishot's delay exactly the same as auto's? That is, time for multi then auto to fire = 2x time for just multi or just auto to fire?
A bit off the current topic, since when have we been able to freeze multiple mobs at once? I could have sworn you could only have one trap effect active at a time, but am I just confusing that with the "can only have one trap out (but not triggered) at a time" rule? Have I really been that clueless these past 2 years?
The other night I was doing a setthek halls run for the first time, had laid a trap down, and had to wait over 30s for the pull. The wrong mob got frozen, so I dropped another freezing trap, and pulled the right one into it. Both stayed trapped.
The former broke after a while, I think due to damage (I'm not sure though, maybe it did register that a 2nd trap had triggered, but a delay of several seconds was apparent).
And if multiple traps can be triggered concurrently, can a survival hunter trap 3 enemies by dropping trap, waiting 30s, pulling into trap, dropping a 2nd trap, pulling into it, then hitting Readiness and dropping a 3rd trap?
And if multiple traps can be triggered concurrently, can a survival hunter trap 3 enemies by dropping trap, waiting 30s, pulling into trap, dropping a 2nd trap, pulling into it, then hitting Readiness and dropping a 3rd trap?
Yes.
You've always been able to have multiple triggered traps. The restriction is only on un-triggered traps.
To each their own, I just don't find the resistances to be more useful then either armor, stam, or howl/lightning breath/dash/bite/whatever, and I hate using stable slots for specific dungeon pets because inevitably I forget to take the right one to the instance.
If 640 health were anywhere near as good at damage mitigation as 140 resistance, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, resistance far outstrips any other kind of mitigation on resistance fights, and in the previous raid zones there were always resistance fights. A well-trained pet can easily live through Firemaw, for example, whereas a 0-resist pet will get annihilated in short order.
Zurai is right but I figured numbers people would want to see it.
140 resistance against a lvl 73 caster comes out to an average resist of (140 / (5 * 73)) * 0.75 = 28.8%
You can use a simple example, pet is taking a 500 a tic AE.
With 7640 life and 0 resist your pet will live for 15.28 seconds
With 7000 life and 140 resist your pet will live for 19.66 seconds
Since I'm not great at math myself, I'm curious what other people have found as equivalence points for AP/Agi/Crit. Right now I'm sitting at 2104 AP unbuffed, with about 21% crit (profile in my sig). I've been valuing 1 crit rating = 1 agi = 2 AP, roughly, and I'm curious if people have insight that might offer better evaluation.
Based on the info from Zeboim which he double checked against Lactose's latest spreadsheat this were his findings:
Well i went thorugh Lactoses spreadsheet and mine looking for errors to certain discrepencies between the two and it seems mine was wrong. Anyways these are the relative values between agi, crit ratina, and rap with 1900 ap marks specced and 20% crit.
1 rap = 1 crit rating / 1.45 = 1 agi / 1.75
So 1 agi isn't better than 2 rap and wont be until your at around 3.3k rap.
Multiplied by 32 this gives roughly:
32 rap ~= 22 crit rating ~= 18 agi
(which are more nothing but just more "real" values you might be seeing and i typically get a feeling for the weights of each stat by doing so).
This is also pretty much in line with what i'd have expected with the hunter mechanics changes in 2.0.1 and newer. Previously my rought estimates were:
So that actually mainly means that RAP and crit have stayed the same versus each other and agi has lost about 40% of it's "value" vs. the 2 other stats.
Do you believe that the time it takes to fire (the first) autoshot depends in any way on
a) haste effects incl. quiver
b) base bow speed?
I believe the time taken to fire an Auto Shot (first, after another shot if ready) takes equally long, and is unaffected by hastes and weapon speed, but 100% dependent on the animation. It seems pretty safe to assume the animation time needed = 0.5 seconds.
Also, is multishot's delay exactly the same as auto's? That is, time for multi then auto to fire = 2x time for just multi or just auto to fire?
0.0 Start Multi-Shot
0.5 Multi-Shot fires
1.0 Auto Shot fires
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
Is the dps table on the top right an accurate portrayal of the two weapons you input?
By adding the GM bow (1.8 speed) with my hunters stats, I output 930 dps, which is much greater than any other weapon, such as many epic 72+ dps weapons that output around 800 dps. Obviously this cannot be right as autoshots are hitting for 400 while with a kara epic they're hitting for 800 which is reset after every steady shot.
If you fire with that setup, it should be correct. On one hand you're using the R14 bow, shooting an Auto Shot and a Steady Shot every ~1.6 seconds. This works out pretty nicely due to cooldowns and casting times (although, after thinking about it, it would probably have to be bumped to ~2 seconds between each Auto Shot for it to be doable ingame).
On the other hand you're using the Steelhawk, firing an Auto Shot and a Steady Shot every ~2.5 seconds. (In other words, you fire an Auto Shot, then a Steady Shot, and then you wait for the next Auto Shot, rince & repeat).
Something to consider here, with a pure Steady + Auto Shot combo, would be firing Auto Shot every ~3.1 seconds, with Steady Shot firing every ~1.6 seconds. (Steady, Steady, Auto). Again, highly likely not optimal, but a bit better.
To include other shots (Multi, Arcane, Aimed), you have to include both: Seconds between each & Rank used.
Only including 1 Steady per Auto Shot, and then squeezing in Arcane / Multi when possible (but not delaying Auto Shots), you might end up with a setup somewhat like this:
Seconds between Auto Shots: 2.8
Seconds between Arcane Shots: 7.0
Arcane Shot rank: 9
Seconds between Multi-Shots: 10.5
Multi-Shot rank: 6
Would this be possibly ingame? I don't know, I just wrote something down that, at first glance, seems viable-ish to me.
This is what I meant with having to tweak shots manually.
I know it's not intuitive, or easy, and I'm trying to sort some stuff out with the default values, so they hopefully are a bit smarter.
@Zurai
Looked at the formulae you mentioned.
Adding Mana Regen to your current weapon will not change your current weapon's time until OOM.
This is intended, albeit probably not all too intuitive.
Just imagine it as current stats = stats including current weapon / items. Your current weapon is part of the current total.
Using RAP as an example: Let's say you input your stats. You open your character sheet and see 1815 there. Fair enough, so you type in 1815.
Hovering your weapon, you see that it has +15 RAP. Thus, in the current weapon field, you enter 15. This does not change your current damage, nor should it. You're not equipping the current weapon on top of your current stats.
The current weapon +stats only matter when swapping weapon. To figure out your RAP, etc, after a weapon swap: NewTotal = CurrentTotal - CurrentWeapon + NewWeapon
Thus, if you have shitloads of Mana Regen on your current weapon*, and none on your new weapon, your new weapon will go OOM much faster.
*If you do have shitloads of Mana Regen on your current weapon, you also have shitloads of Mana Regen on your current total stats.
Anyway, I know a lot of this isn't very intuitive, especially not when I haven't documented it (yet).
This is also why it favors fast weapons so much at first, the spreadsheet doesn't account for lag / timing; it expects you to do so based on your own personal experience and tweaking.
Since I designed it, I know how it should work, and looking at it now it's logical to me.
I'm working on - time permitting - making it more intuitive, "smart" and functional.
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
does gcd from multi start the instant it's initiated, or only when shot fires? what if multi is interrupted? i assume it's just like a .5 sec cast time spell, but castbar is hidden (i.e., global backdated to spell start, when spell finishes)
Capitalize.
Global Cooldown starts at spell start. If interrupted during casting, the Global Cooldown is cancelled as well. This might take some fractions of a second, based on lag (server has to communicate to the client that the spell was aborted, I believe).
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
A nice companion to any shot rotation theorycraft spreadsheet: a UI mod that allows you to record your actual shot timings for attempted rotations, and projects this back to theoretical dps for various target AC/resist/level and your gear/buffs (but using those timings instead of perfect ones)
Occasionaly you'll find a bugged (essentially evading) mob that is unkillable and (either rooted or pet tankable, couldn't tell), where you can go at it for quite a while.
I did try auto every 3.4 sec, steady every 1.7 (marks), and it worked ok, both with ashjre'thul and the lvl 70 pvp xbow. I'm happier with a same-dps 2.8 bow alternating strict one steady, one auto. Honestly, the gap (missing DPS) doesn't feel/seem as large as the theorycraft says.
Just a quick suggestion, Lactose, could you replace the 1 Agi = AP conversions with or add a section that allows you to see how much DPS X Agi and Y AP will add? It'd be handy for figuring out which enchants are better at a given gear level, for example 35 Agi vs 70 AP and 15 Agi vs 26 RAP.
A nice companion to any shot rotation theorycraft spreadsheet: a UI mod that allows you to record your actual shot timings for attempted rotations, and projects this back to theoretical dps for various target AC/resist/level and your gear/buffs (but using those timings instead of perfect ones)
Occasionaly you'll find a bugged (essentially evading) mob that is unkillable and (either rooted or pet tankable, couldn't tell), where you can go at it for quite a while.
I did try auto every 3.4 sec, steady every 1.7 (marks), and it worked ok, both with ashjre'thul and the lvl 70 pvp xbow. I'm happier with a same-dps 2.8 bow alternating strict one steady, one auto. Honestly, the gap (missing DPS) doesn't feel/seem as large as the theorycraft says.
Dr. Boom is the perfect mob for this. You can shoot at him all day.
Edit: A lot of our theorycraft up until recently didn't take into account the animation delay of auto nor realistic (something a human can do consistently) timings.
As an aside I've been playing with growl and it looks like it is independent of the pets GCD. Not sure why I didn't notice it before.
2/6 20:05:36.359 Flappy's Lightning Breath hits Silkwing Larva for 284 Nature damage.
2/6 20:05:36.656 Flappy casts Growl on Silkwing Larva.
and
2/6 20:05:42.281 Flappy casts Growl on Silkwing Larva.
2/6 20:05:42.281 Silkwing Larva hits Flappy for 70.
2/6 20:05:42.593 Flappy crits Silkwing Larva for 299.
2/6 20:05:42.890 Flappy's Lightning Breath hits Silkwing Larva for 285 Nature damage.
I have done some pretty extensive testing with Dr. Boom and so far it seems impossible to land an autoshot faster than about 500 ms after another. If you get the timing perfect you can land an autoshot before another shot by less than 500ms but if your timing is even slightly off you delay the auto.
I was messing around with this tonight, trying to get an arcane off as quick after an auto as possible. These are clips of a combat log. All the mobs were held stationary by my pet.
I was pretty happy with this:
2/6 20:22:47.656 Your Auto Shot crits Silkwing Larva for 627.
2/6 20:22:47.859 Flappy gains 50 Focus from Go for the Throat.
2/6 20:22:47.859 Your Arcane Shot hits Silkwing Larva for 471 Arcane damage.
Until I managed to get this:
2/6 20:23:25.265 Your Auto Shot hits Silkwing Larva for 319.
2/6 20:23:25.265 Your Arcane Shot hits Silkwing Larva for 458 Arcane damage.
And another:
2/6 20:25:26.984 Your Auto Shot hits Silkwing Larva for 301.
2/6 20:25:26.984 Your Arcane Shot crits Silkwing Larva for 1026 Arcane damage.
I have done some pretty extensive testing with Dr. Boom and so far it seems impossible to land an autoshot faster than about 500 ms after another. If you get the timing perfect you can land an autoshot before another shot by less than 500ms but if your timing is even slightly off you delay the auto.
I was messing around with this tonight, trying to get an arcane off as quick after an auto as possible. These are clips of a combat log. All the mobs were held stationary by my pet.
I was pretty happy with this:
2/6 20:22:47.656 Your Auto Shot crits Silkwing Larva for 627.
2/6 20:22:47.859 Flappy gains 50 Focus from Go for the Throat.
2/6 20:22:47.859 Your Arcane Shot hits Silkwing Larva for 471 Arcane damage.
Until I managed to get this:
2/6 20:23:25.265 Your Auto Shot hits Silkwing Larva for 319.
2/6 20:23:25.265 Your Arcane Shot hits Silkwing Larva for 458 Arcane damage.
And another:
2/6 20:25:26.984 Your Auto Shot hits Silkwing Larva for 301.
2/6 20:25:26.984 Your Arcane Shot crits Silkwing Larva for 1026 Arcane damage.
I would assume that the latter two situations are possible because Arcane Shot is an instant cast, and you managed to cast it immediately "after" firing an Auto Shot. I would be much more surprised to see it the other way around, where you fire them simultaneously, but you get the Arcane Shot showing in the Combat Log before the Auto Shot.
"User is a tremendous douchenozzel"
-Actual EJ Forums feedback concerning Goreshot.
Just a quick suggestion, Lactose, could you replace the 1 Agi = AP conversions with or add a section that allows you to see how much DPS X Agi and Y AP will add? It'd be handy for figuring out which enchants are better at a given gear level, for example 35 Agi vs 70 AP and 15 Agi vs 26 RAP.
Hmm, yeah, that should be possible. Shouldn't be too hard either, just more data to put in. Might be able to have it implemented tonight.
What are you guys (that have downloaded it) thinking of it otherwise? Is it shaping up to be worth anything, etc? Obviously, there's a lot of stuff not finished yet, but I'm still at the point where I should be able to add new stuff without too much work.
Suggestions and comments are very welcome =)
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
What are you guys (that have downloaded it) thinking of it otherwise? Is it shaping up to be worth anything, etc? Obviously, there's a lot of stuff not finished yet, but I'm still at the point where I should be able to add new stuff without too much work.
Suggestions and comments are very welcome =)
I think its a pretty solid base and nice work. I'm still in the process of comparing to my own results and the first thing I saw is, that focus fire is not really factored in.
Also a little typo in the formula for average Arcane and average Multi Shot.
Apart from that I'm pretty happy to have the same results ;)
Now I'll check your total dps and the calulated shots for that.
Edit: Ok, just had a look at it. I think your total dps calculation is a bit too simple, because every weapon speed will cause different shot rotations. The way you calculate dps you would have to take every Arcane and Multi whenever the cooldown is ready, but thats not always possible.
My own way was to determine a rotation based on the priority of the specials, find out at which point it starts to repeat, then count the different shots I could do in that timeframe of X seconds and divide the total done damage through X for the total dps.
Edit: Ok, just had a look at it. I think your total dps calculation is a bit too simple, because every weapon speed will cause different shot rotations. The way you calculate dps you would have to take every Arcane and Multi whenever the cooldown is ready, but thats not always possible.
Read post #1133 :P
Other than that, this is getting me a little list of stuff to add / fix, much appreciated.
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
Edit: Ok, just had a look at it. I think your total dps calculation is a bit too simple, because every weapon speed will cause different shot rotations. The way you calculate dps you would have to take every Arcane and Multi whenever the cooldown is ready, but thats not always possible.
Read post #1133 :P
Other than that, this is getting me a little list of stuff to add / fix, much appreciated.
Ok, I didnt read that long one, shame on me ;)
Another tip for end-perfection would be a coloring scheme, which has all fields that should be filled by the user in only one color, so people dont mess up any formulas.
Apart from that, are you german or what is it with FALSCH and WAHR? :)
As for the total dps calculation, I dont think it will be possible to let a formula calculate the shots. A simple way would be if you include 5 fields for the shots and a field for a duration, where everyone can enter how many shots they think they are capable of doing in x seconds and calculate the total dps by that. It would still work nicely with your calculations for mp5 spend and time til oom.
Does Unleashed Fury affect focus attacks (like Lightning Breath) or is it simply a 20% increase in your pet's autoattack damage? I'm trying to figure out if, going off this base build, I should go for Unleashed Fury or the Slaying Talents.
Does Unleashed Fury affect focus attacks (like Lightning Breath) or is it simply a 20% increase in your pet's autoattack damage? I'm trying to figure out if, going off this base build, I should go for Unleashed Fury or the Slaying Talents.
It should increase all damage done by the pet, including specials.
02/06/07, 2:47 PM
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